[QUOTE=jobizzle;43328338]Returning to the topic at hand it seems to me that pornography is equivalent to voyeurism, and I don't know how many of you would be willing to watch a couple having sex in the same room, its only the barrier of the internet that I assume makes you comfortable with it. At least go out and have your own relationships without simulating it on a computer, at the very least it seems pathetic, even from a non-religious perspective.[/QUOTE]
What do you care what people jerk off to? That's their business, not yours.
[editline]27th December 2013[/editline]
Porn is a legitimate industry. If you don't want to fuck people on camera for money, YOU DON'T HAVE TO.
[QUOTE=Shark Bones;43328634]What do you care what people jerk off to? That's their business, not yours.
[editline]27th December 2013[/editline]
Porn is a legitimate industry. If you don't want to fuck people on camera for money, YOU DON'T HAVE TO.[/QUOTE]
Prostitution is a legitimate industry. If you don't want to sell your body for money, YOU DON'T HAVE TO.
Doesn't make it less exploitative. Not everyone is totally rational and in control of their impulses, you can't possibly believe that there aren't people in the porn industry who aren't miserable and unhappy?
I don't want to interfere in what people do, but at least let me give advice. Whether you reject or accept it is all your business.
How are people being exploited? Because people can see their boobies?
People only become pornstars if they want to become pornstars. When you've made the mental decision to be in a porno, I don't think you CARE that people can see your nono's at that point.
[editline]27th December 2013[/editline]
That ratio of people who are unhappy doing porn is the same as people unhappy doing any other job. It's not some evil business that tries to destroy the lives of multiple people.
[QUOTE=Shark Bones;43328799]How are people being exploited? Because people can see their boobies?
People only become pornstars if they want to become pornstars. When you've made the mental decision to be in a porno, I don't think you CARE that people can see your nono's at that point.[/QUOTE]
If you can't see how the porn industry can be exploitive then this whole discussion is a waste of time really.
The porn industry is just as exploitative as the food industry.
[QUOTE=Shark Bones;43328867]The porn industry is just as exploitative as the food industry.[/QUOTE]
Really? You're really arguing this?
Please, in your own words. Explain how the food industry is exploitative, then explain how the porn industry is equally exploitative. There is a massive difference. There are a myriad of interviews with form porn actors (male and female) to give you insight in to what the industry is actually like. "You don't have to fuck" is not an option when you are pressured into the industry due to money troubles. There's a reason a good portion of the actors seem around college/ university age, and it's largely money.
[QUOTE=jobizzle;43328619]Its only your opinion that pornography is victimless. As we have already heard from a female facepuncher, it at least makes some people feel like shit, and for a good reason. It idealises sexuality and the human form to way beyond reality and raises our expectations thus. I have personally noticed that when viewing pornography has become a habit in my life, it becomes increasingly difficult to control my sexual appetites even in day to day life, and I am not ashamed to admit that since I see it as a typical human frailty and reaction to such conditioning. I do not mean to say I become some raging pervert, but merely that I am sometimes motivated by pleasure and sexual desire in times when I ought to be more loving and impartial.
I have already mentioned also that indulging in pornography can become an addiction and when it does it tends to escalate to more extreme forms of porn until basic human sexual relationships are not enough to get you off.
Basically I just think that the private and public lives of an individual are far less separate and distinct than we like to imagine. I don't think keeping secrets is any kind of healthy way to live (secrets such as what kind of porn you watch and what gets you off) and we ought to be more genuine in our interactions with people rather than getting a little satisfaction on the side from viewing porn.
It is not my intention to judge anyone, but unfortunately you are destined to be offended if you view every expression of a personal opinion to be an attack on your own.[/QUOTE]
If you're going to belittle my opinion down to nothing, then their opinions are worth nothing as well.
Porn stars are paid. We're not talking about videos of sexual abuse where someone is forced into the matter against their will. This is not porn.
[editline]27th December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=jobizzle;43328757]Prostitution is a legitimate industry. If you don't want to sell your body for money, YOU DON'T HAVE TO.
Doesn't make it less exploitative. Not everyone is totally rational and in control of their impulses, you can't possibly believe that there aren't people in the porn industry who aren't miserable and unhappy?
I don't want to interfere in what people do, but at least let me give advice. Whether you reject or accept it is all your business.[/QUOTE]
This is a straw man argument.
Sweat shops are exploitation, to some degree, while the same job elsewhere is fantastic and pays greatly.
The same argument can be made for prostitution. Prostitution is not synonymous with exploitation just because it's prostitution. One county in Navada has proven that women who work entirely for themselves, of their own choice, can participate in prostitution and not be exploited.
[QUOTE='[BBNH] Jesus;43328940']Porn stars are paid. We're not talking about videos of sexual abuse where someone is forced into the matter against their will. This is not porn.[/QUOTE]
That's also not the complete definition of exploitative. That's just a great example of massive exploitation.
[QUOTE=jobizzle;43328844]If you can't see how the porn industry can be exploitive then this whole discussion is a waste of time really.[/QUOTE]
If you cannot support your claims, then this discussion is a waste of time.
[editline]27th December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=hexpunK;43328967]That's also not the complete definition of exploitative. That's just a great example of massive exploitation.[/QUOTE]
The exploitation argument is a weak, flawed argument.
I think anyone who has anything negative to say about the Porn Industry should take a good look at [URL="http://jonmillward.com/blog/studies/deep-inside-a-study-of-10000-porn-stars/"]this article[/URL], specifically the fact that most porn actors/actresses only spend a few years doing porn (and that time span has been getting shorter and shorter as time goes on). If the porn industry truly was a soulless exploitative machine, that time frame wouldn't be so small (nor would it be getting smaller).
[QUOTE='[BBNH] Jesus;43328969']The exploitation argument is a weak, flawed argument.[/QUOTE]
Why? You aren't actually providing solid arguments here, you're just stating points and running off to the next "big zing". Why is it a weak argument?
[QUOTE='[BBNH] Jesus;43328940']If you're going to belittle my opinion down to nothing, then their opinions are worth nothing as well.
Porn stars are paid. We're not talking about videos of sexual abuse where someone is forced into the matter against their will. This is not porn.[/QUOTE]
Sorry but money cannot change the effect an experience will have upon someone; you might go into porn expecting to enjoy yourself and come out feeling like shit. I don't believe it is only the individual to blame if this is so. The very nature of porn is to present something artificial and idealised, and therefore false.
Disagreeing with you is not belittling, you really ought to take this less personally!
[QUOTE=hexpunK;43328975]Why? You aren't actually providing solid arguments here, you're just stating points and running off to the next "big zing". Why is it a weak argument?[/QUOTE]
The burden of evidence rests on the shoulders of those making the positive claim.
The religious person making the claim, jobizzle, has made the positive claim that prostitution is all exploitative. He has yet to provide any evidence.
[editline]27th December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=jobizzle;43329001]Sorry but money cannot change the effect an experience will have upon someone; you might go into porn expecting to enjoy yourself and come out feeling like shit. I don't believe it is only the individual to blame if this is so. The very nature of porn is to present something artificial and idealised, and therefore false.
Disagreeing with you is not belittling, you really ought to take this less personally![/QUOTE]
Who the fuck are you to judge what kind of effect it has on people, let alone to make the blanket statement of what guaranteed effect it will have on everyone?
Even one single porn star who is happy about their career would debunk your entire argument. You're making pathetically weak arguments.
[QUOTE='[BBNH] Jesus;43329008']The burden of evidence rests on the shoulders of those making the positive claim.
The religious person making the claim, jobizzle, has made the positive claim that prostitution is all exploitative. He has yet to provide any evidence.
[editline]27th December 2013[/editline]
Who the fuck are you to judge what kind of effect it has on people, let alone to make the blanket statement of what guaranteed effect it will have on everyone?
Even one single porn star who is happy about their career would debunk your entire argument. You're making pathetically weak arguments.[/QUOTE]
Did I say 'all porn stars hate their lives'? I didn't talk about everyone, but to dismiss the sufferings of even just a few is quite thoughtless and marginalises their personal experiences. Its not about the numbers of how many people enjoy porn, because the nature of the industry will always be such that there will be people going into it without fully knowing what they are getting into and quite possibly will suffer as a result, but all the porn industry wants to do is blame it on the individual. You forget how desperate people can become in pursuit of money or a false ideal, forfeiting their happiness while the industry looks on apathetically.
Maybe you should go and talk to some porn stars.
Get their input.
[QUOTE=Shark Bones;43329111]Maybe you should go and talk to some porn stars.
Get their input.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps I ought to, I doubt it will sway my own convictions though, since they are very much personal and based on my own experience.
[QUOTE=jobizzle;43329084]Did I say 'all porn stars hate their lives'? I didn't talk about everyone, but to dismiss the sufferings of even just a few is quite thoughtless and marginalises their personal experiences. Its not about the numbers of how many people enjoy porn, because the nature of the industry will always be such that there will be people going into it without fully knowing what they are getting into and quite possibly will suffer as a result, but all the porn industry wants to do is blame it on the individual. You forget how desperate people can become in pursuit of money or a false ideal, forfeiting their happiness while the industry looks on apathetically.[/QUOTE]
I went into the tech industry not knowing what I know now. Nobody goes into any industry knowing everything about it.
I would rather do a three way scene with two BBC dudes than go back into the tech industry. That doesn't make the tech industry inherently evil, which is the flawed statement you're trying to make about the porn industry.
Just because the actor learns that the industry isn't something they like doesn't mean that the industry is flawed. It simply means that the two should part ways. The actor should go find something else to do. It in no way vilifies the porn industry or the tech industry. It's personal preference, plain and simple.
[QUOTE=jobizzle;43329146]Perhaps I ought to, I doubt it will sway my own convictions though, since they are very much personal and based on my own experience.[/QUOTE]
What, were you a porn star once? Because if not, your own experiences mean jack shit.
[QUOTE=jobizzle;43329146]Perhaps I ought to, I doubt it will sway my own convictions though, since they are very much personal and based on my own experience.[/QUOTE]
...which has absolutely ZERO bearing on anyone's life but your own, but you're making judgments about an entire industry based on your own biases which is what we are telling you is an irrational action or judgment.
"Well, I don't like it, so it must be evil!"
If Jesus says it's bad, it must be.
You're no crusader. If people are unhappy with their jobs, they can leave whenever they want. Porn doesn't harm you. You just think you can push your morals and what you think is right and wrong on other people.
[QUOTE='[BBNH] Jesus;43329230']...which has absolutely ZERO bearing on anyone's life but your own, but you're making judgments about an entire industry based on your own biases which is what we are telling you is an irrational action or judgment.
"Well, I don't like it, so it must be evil!"[/QUOTE]
I suppose I am destined to fail against the moral relativists. I just can't put my faith in anything that will have negative impact on me, and possibly a great deal more people. I don't intentionally put down pornography to take some kind of moral high ground, I just hate to see people become a victim of it in the way I have, and this is coming from the perspective of a user of porn, not a participator in making it. All we have are our own experiences, and I hope to do my best to respect your views.
[editline]28th December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Shark Bones;43329300]If Jesus says it's bad, it must be.
You're no crusader. If people are unhappy with their jobs, they can leave whenever they want. Porn doesn't harm you. You just think you can push your morals and what you think is right and wrong on other people.[/QUOTE]
A strawman! Oh goody...
Once again complaining because my personal beliefs contradict yours and thus you assume I must be some kind of forceful oppressor... get a grip.
[QUOTE=jobizzle;43329310]I suppose I am destined to fail against the moral relativists. I just can't put my faith in anything that will have negative impact on me, and possibly a great deal more people. I don't intentionally put down pornography to take some kind of moral high ground, I just hate to see people become a victim of it in the way I have, and this is coming from the perspective of a user of porn, not a participator in making it. All we have are our own experiences, and I hope to do my best to respect your views.[/QUOTE]
Just because it may have a negative impact on you (not denying it, many people have porn addictions or relationship problems that porn has taken the place of, etc), doesn't mean that the problem rests with the porn industry.
It rests with those who have the problem.
Just because you have a problem doesn't mean the porn industry should be affected. That's the ultimate arrogance: that you do not have the problem, that your issue means that everyone else should change.
[editline]27th December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=jobizzle;43329310]
A strawman! Oh goody...
Once again complaining because my personal beliefs contradict yours and thus you assume I must be some kind of forceful oppressor... get a grip.[/QUOTE]
It wasn't a straw man; he had a good point.
What was your purpose of starting this thread? You could have started this thread changing the word "pornography" with literally anything else.
You started this thread, quite obviously, with the intention of demonizing something that you don't like.
[QUOTE='[BBNH] Jesus;43329331']Just because it may have a negative impact on you (not denying it, many people have porn addictions or relationship problems that porn has taken the place of, etc), doesn't mean that the problem rests with the porn industry.
It rests with those who have the problem.
Just because you have a problem doesn't mean the porn industry should be affected. That's the ultimate arrogance: that you do not have the problem, that your issue means that everyone else should change.
[editline]27th December 2013[/editline]
It wasn't a straw man; he had a good point.
What was your purpose of starting this thread? You could have started this thread changing the word "pornography" with literally anything else.
You started this thread, quite obviously, with the intention of demonizing something that you don't like.[/QUOTE]
I did it mum. I lost an argument... pray for me BBNH Jesus.
[editline]28th December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE='[BBNH] Jesus;43329331']Just because it may have a negative impact on you (not denying it, many people have porn addictions or relationship problems that porn has taken the place of, etc), doesn't mean that the problem rests with the porn industry.
It rests with those who have the problem.
Just because you have a problem doesn't mean the porn industry should be affected. That's the ultimate arrogance: that you do not have the problem, that your issue means that everyone else should change.
[editline]27th December 2013[/editline]
It wasn't a straw man; he had a good point.
What was your purpose of starting this thread? You could have started this thread changing the word "pornography" with literally anything else.
You started this thread, quite obviously, with the intention of demonizing something that you don't like.[/QUOTE]
When did I ever say that if Jesus says its bad it must be? Also I didn't make the thread, so don't blame me for that.
Dammit it Facepunch Jesus, I'm a girl. >:C
You can't just preach your morals as if they are what is ultimately correct. It's simply what you believe. Nothing more.
[QUOTE='[BBNH] Jesus;43329331']It rests with those who have the problem.[/QUOTE]
Exactly this, if there are people out there genuinely addicted to porn (which isn't where the addiction is actually coming from physically anyway, mentally for sure) it is not necessarily the job of the industry to change itself to suit a few unstable individuals that now "rely" on it. Sure the industry might feel they should help a bit and fund "rehab" for it more, but it is not their problem to deal with in particular.
[editline]28th December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Shark Bones;43329368]Dammit it Facepunch Jesus, I'm a girl. >:C
You can't just preach your morals as if they are what is ultimately correct. It's simply what you believe. Nothing more.[/QUOTE]
Fuck, please, anything but a debate on morality. I get enough of that from living with a philosophy student for most of the last two years.
[QUOTE=Shark Bones;43329368]Dammit it Facepunch Jesus, I'm a girl. >:C
You can't just preach your morals as if they are what is ultimately correct. It's simply what you believe. Nothing more.[/QUOTE]
I just don't understand how you can believe that without leaving the gate open for all manner of evil ideologies to justify their actions. The idea that your actions are alright so far as they do not harm anyone else seems like a pointless law if we consider human existence irrelevant as BBNH Jesus suggests.
[QUOTE=jobizzle;43329407]I just don't understand how you can believe that without leaving the gate open for all manner of evil ideologies to justify their actions. The idea that your actions are alright so far as they do not harm anyone else seems like a pointless law if we consider human existence irrelevant as BBNH Jesus suggests.[/QUOTE]
Are you saying because we think there's no God that we think it's free game to be dickholes to each other? Get real.
[QUOTE=Shark Bones;43329368]Dammit it Facepunch Jesus, I'm a girl. >:C
You can't just preach your morals as if they are what is ultimately correct. It's simply what you believe. Nothing more.[/QUOTE]
Why does your being a girl matter at all?
Why does your opinion matter any more than anyone else's?
I will, however, be more kind to you since women are often more gentle and more fragile than males so you can't proverbially smack them around like you can men. :P
Also, pics? ;) :P
[QUOTE=Shark Bones;43329427]Are you saying because we think there's no God that we think it's free game to be dickholes to each other? Get real.[/QUOTE]
No, I'm saying what I actually wrote. Respond to the argument rather than misinterpreting it and then not answering.
[editline]28th December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE='[BBNH] Jesus;43329436']
I will, however, be more kind to you since women are often more gentle and more fragile than males so you can't proverbially smack them around like you can men. :P
Also, pics? ;) :P[/QUOTE]
There you go folks, the best and brightest atheists of our age: read it and weep!
[QUOTE=jobizzle;43329407]I just don't understand how you can believe that without leaving the gate open for all manner of evil ideologies to justify their actions. The idea that your actions are alright so far as they do not harm anyone else seems like a pointless law if we consider human existence irrelevant as BBNH Jesus suggests.[/QUOTE]
The infringing on the rights and lives of others is where you draw the line. However, just because you are affected by something doesn't immediately mean that the something is responsible.
It's like being offended.
The Bible says that those who are offended have the responsibility to go to those who offended them [I]and apologize for being offended.[/I]
[editline]27th December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=jobizzle;43329445]
There you go folks, the best and brightest atheists of our age: read it and weep![/QUOTE]
Note the fucking emoticons. I know it's hard to read inflection and sarcasm in simple text on a screen, but do please make a damn effort.
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