[QUOTE=Jewsus;19093910]I ask you this:
What the fuck? Are you honestly asking why a bill that's been worked on for several months by 500+ people, that is supposed to completely change our entire failing healthcare system, is over 1000 pages? Troll or Moron[/QUOTE]
its bad because its long :downs:
I edited my post and simplemac3, I've really thought into the structure of it.
Why would anyone attack us if we weren't fucking other countries up? There is no Cold War anymore, we've established peaceful relations with most communist nations that we formerly embargoed though there is NK, Cuba and Venezuela.
Now it's "Terrorism". The T-word is a really useful and meaningful word. But if you keep saying "it's because they're jealous" naively or God-forbid "it was an inside job" you're going to start believing yourself. It's because we're in everyone else's business. I promise you if we said "Fuck you" to the rest of the world, based our military on our borders and let the UN do what it said it'd do we'd be better off.
On the length of the bill, my point is, some jackass Congressman straight up don't read the shit and vote it up because his party-member wrote it.
[quote="billeh!"]* Why we need this specific healthcare bill (I'll make this argument even though it is completely invalid due to the fact that this was not the healthcare bill that the Democrats originally supported) [b]I didn't mention anything about the democrats, I think they're just as partisan as the republicans.[/b]
* Why we should stay in Afghanistan (The Dems support this so I have to be against it, even though people in my own party support the war.) [b]Both parties support it[/b]
* Why we should keep our military forces based in any other country ("")
* Why higher taxes will help the country (I won't admit I haven't studied economics at all.) [b]I'm just getting to macroeconomics, but since you know, answer the question. It was put there to be answered sincerely.
* Why a 1000+ page long bill should be trusted. (Even though most bills these days reach massive lengths just the same.) [b]Point is many congressmen have been accused of not reading it, if this is true, it's something worth being pissed over.[/quote]
You guys won't change a single bit of this persons opinion by calling him stupid, you are simply reinforcing his theory that he is correct. He is probably around 13 as the majority of you are and as a result he can't possibly start to understand why he is wrong as his parents will always be there to assert right wing views. However, the fact that universities are filled with leftists isn't a coincidence. The smartest of people have these values, even though it isn't in their economic interest as they are the elite that are protected by conservative views. You would do best to just not listen to your parents, maybe read the communist manifesto. I'm not suggesting you become communist, especially seeing as 50% of "communists" are horrible idiots that contradict themselves by wearing commercially sold hammer and sickle shirts as well as being fat and greedy consumerists. I am simply suggesting that by reading far left literature you may have your far right views balanced out.
[QUOTE=SomethingAwful;19094523]You guys won't change a single bit of this persons opinion by calling him stupid, you are simply reinforcing his theory that he is correct. He is probably around 13 as the majority of you are and as a result he can't possibly start to understand why he is wrong. All I have to say is the fact that universities are filled with leftists isn't a coincidence. The smartest of people have these values, even though it isn't in their economic interest as they are the elite that are protected by conservative views. You would do best to just not listen to your parents, maybe read the communist manifesto. I'm not suggesting you become communist, especially seeing as 50% of "communists" are horrible idiots that contradict themselves by wearing commercially sold hammer and sickle shirts as well as being fat and greedy consumerists. I am simply suggesting that by reading far left literature you may have your far right views balanced out.[/QUOTE]
but picking on internet libertarians is fun
EDIT: also if you think some douchebag know-it-all libertarian is going to read a far left book then lol
[QUOTE=Ziron;19094529]but picking on internet libertarians is fun
EDIT: also if you think some douchebag know-it-all libertarian is going to read a far left book then lol[/QUOTE]
He won't be able to understand it, and neither could you probably. You aren't helping anything and your trolling isn't to that level, its simply abusing a non responsive person.
You guys must be taking this the wrong way. I feel I need to expand the horizons, the first post was based on what I was under the impression of and the question was whether or not that's worthwhile believing. I want you to convince me, I shit you not I'd like a few serious posts free of the typical shit-tossing. Elaborate. I planned on buying one I just didn't know which one was worth buying. I was going to try finding [I]Progressive Agenda for Structural Change: Stand Up Straight![/I]
[QUOTE=SomethingAwful;19094567]He won't be able to understand it, and neither could you probably. You aren't helping anything and your trolling isn't to that level, its simply abusing a non responsive person.[/QUOTE]
okie dokie mr smarty pants
[QUOTE=Xystus234;19094256]Hardly. Libertarianism as I understand is that there should be little government involvement, to none, money should flow freely, all private organizations and individuals should be able to "do whatever the hell they want", and it will all work out. But that's just a few of many principles.
It's idealistic. But they're forgetting that people tend to be ignoble savages, and that power and it's abuse have no preferences to it's source.[/QUOTE]
That's radical libertarianism reserved for mad hatters. That is more like Anarchy Plus than anything.
[QUOTE=SomethingAwful;19094523]You guys won't change a single bit of this persons opinion by calling him stupid, you are simply reinforcing his theory that he is correct. He is probably around 13 as the majority of you are and as a result he can't possibly start to understand why he is wrong as his parents will always be there to assert right wing views. All I have to say is the fact that universities are filled with leftists isn't a coincidence. The smartest of people have these values, even though it isn't in their economic interest as they are the elite that are protected by conservative views. You would do best to just not listen to your parents, maybe read the communist manifesto. I'm not suggesting you become communist, especially seeing as 50% of "communists" are horrible idiots that contradict themselves by wearing commercially sold hammer and sickle shirts as well as being fat and greedy consumerists. I am simply suggesting that by reading far left literature you may have your far right views balanced out.[/QUOTE]
Oh all right.
* Why we need this specific healthcare bill
The specific healthcare bill is actually complete shit, I agree. It gives the insurance companies way too much power. But, if you are referring to the public option/medicare 55 stuff, those things are neccesary to keep the healthcare market balanced. How? It gives insurance companies competition so they have to lower the prices into a reasonable range.
* Why we should stay in Afghanistan
I don't really support staying in Afghanistan as well, however we still have some business to do. Afghanistan is an extremely unstable region that is the center of Islamic extremism. If we actively work with the local population to set ups a government with a weak federal government, then I think that we could really change the culture of Afghanistan to be against Islamic extremism.
Might I also mention that OP's party really supports staying in Afghanistan.
* Why we should keep our military forces based in any other country
No reason, just to keep a military-industrial complex going. Credits to the military lobbyists. This is a bi-partisan issue.
* Why higher taxes will help the country (I won't admit I haven't studied economics at all.)
The U.S. is in great debt right now. It needs to pay off taxes and requires funds to subsidize industries to stimulate the economy.
* Why a 1000+ page long bill should be trusted.
It shouldn't. The healthcare bill and stimulus bills were/are both filled with tons of lobbyist crap.
[QUOTE=Sir_Theseus;19094322]There's the moment where I do consider monopolies, but in a Libertarian world, people have guns and vigilante justice in mind. Everyone has a breaking point, and most Southern Libertarians don't mind defining where that point is. At the same time, Libertarians rich or poor believe in a very understandable and very basic "Fuck you" philosophy. It's true. We believe that if we busted our asses for it, it's ours until you bust your ass to earn our keep. Until my congressman sells as many copiers as I do, he's not seeing a penny of [b]my[/b] money and it's because I'm an honest guy. I give no false compassion to the government to seem kind and sensible. I give it to people who need it because the government is too bureaucratic to decide for me, and it's my money, I say where it's fucking going. I also believe that you have that right too.[/QUOTE]
That's not libertarianism, that's being a stark-raving mad scrooge McDuck.
[QUOTE=Sir_Theseus;19094574]You guys must be taking this the wrong way. I feel I need to expand the horizons, the first post was based on what I was under the impression of and the question was whether or not that's worthwhile believing. I want you to convince me, I shit you not I'd like a few serious posts free of the typical shit-tossing. Elaborate. I planned on buying one I just didn't know which one was worth buying. I was going to try finding [I]Progressive Agenda for Structural Change: Stand Up Straight![/I][/QUOTE]
From what I arguments i could extrapolate from your post, I actually agree with a lot of the things you seem to say. I'm a fairly conservative person as well.
ninjad by a troll
[QUOTE=Sir_Theseus;19094574]You guys must be taking this the wrong way. I feel I need to expand the horizons, the first post was based on what I was under the impression of and the question was whether or not that's worthwhile believing. I want you to convince me, I shit you not I'd like a few serious posts free of the typical shit-tossing. Elaborate. I planned on buying one I just didn't know which one was worth buying. I was going to try finding [I]Progressive Agenda for Structural Change: Stand Up Straight![/I][/QUOTE]
It's healthy for you to do this, you should read.
Machiavelli: The Prince
Aldous Huxley: Brave New World
Karl Marx: The Communist Manifesto
George Orwell: Animal Farm
George Orwell: 1984
These books cover a wide range of topics and should help you develop a political opinion, some are quite simple ranging to quite advanced books.
[QUOTE=billeh!;19094608]Oh all right.
* Why we need this specific healthcare bill
The specific healthcare bill is actually complete shit, I agree. It gives the insurance companies way too much power. But, if you are referring to the public option/medicare 55 stuff, those things are neccesary to keep the healthcare market balanced. How? It gives insurance companies competition so they have to lower the prices into a reasonable range.
* Why we should stay in Afghanistan
I don't really support staying in Afghanistan as well, however we still have some business to do. Afghanistan is an extremely unstable region that is the center of Islamic extremism. If we actively work with the local population to set ups a government with a weak federal government, then I think that we could really change the culture of Afghanistan to be against Islamic extremism.
Might I also mention that OP's party really supports staying in Afghanistan.
* Why we should keep our military forces based in any other country
No reason, just to keep a military-industrial complex going. Credits to the military lobbyists. This is a bi-partisan issue.
* Why higher taxes will help the country (I won't admit I haven't studied economics at all.)
The U.S. is in great debt right now. It needs to pay off taxes and requires funds to subsidize industries to stimulate the economy.
* Why a 1000+ page long bill should be trusted.
It shouldn't. The healthcare bill and stimulus bills were/are both filled with tons of lobbyist crap.[/QUOTE]
[B][I]Thank you[/I][/B]
Mind you, my party does not support the war in Afghanistan, if it does, I disagree with it.
[quote="SomethingAwful"]Machiavelli: The Prince
Aldous Huxley: Brave New World
Karl Marx: The Communist Manifesto
George Orwell: Animal Farm
George Orwell: 1984[/quote]
I've read the last three, that's one of the reasons why I chose Libertarianism.
[QUOTE=SomethingAwful;19094523]You guys won't change a single bit of this persons opinion by calling him stupid, you are simply reinforcing his theory that he is correct. He is probably around 13 as the majority of you are and as a result he can't possibly start to understand why he is wrong as his parents will always be there to assert right wing views. However, the fact that universities are filled with leftists isn't a coincidence. The smartest of people have these values, even though it isn't in their economic interest as they are the elite that are protected by conservative views. You would do best to just not listen to your parents, maybe read the communist manifesto. I'm not suggesting you become communist, especially seeing as 50% of "communists" are horrible idiots that contradict themselves by wearing commercially sold hammer and sickle shirts as well as being fat and greedy consumerists. I am simply suggesting that by reading far left literature you may have your far right views balanced out.[/QUOTE]
[B]Communism doesn't work because it's based on ideals. [/B]There is no ideals, ideals are [b]fantasy[/b]. You can have goals, things to work toward, but once that 's done, something else will come up after that or on the way. Otherwise it's just daydreaming, fantasy, and doublethink. Adaptability and pragmatism is what counts.
Look at Reagan, for better or worse he accomplished his ideals, but it eventually turned into the mess we have today. His ideals were really goals. He accomplished them, but it didn't last long.
heres a serious responce since im feeling nice
* Why we need this specific healthcare bill.
we dont, the current one is an ineffective piece of shit.
* Why we should stay in Afghanistan
i personally dont see any reason to stay in afghanistan. its obvious its not going to form into a cohesive modern state no matter how long we stay there. besides, extremist muslims groups like the taliban have already moved base to places like pakistan
* Why we should keep our military forces based in any other country
the only nations that we should still have forces in are in taiwan and south korea so that n korea/china doesnt get uppity and try to start world war 3. i can see the benefits of having a post in africa to spook any potential rebellions in unstable african nations, but theres no need to have military posts in other nations, such as germany. for germany, the cold war is over and japan can easily create a nuclear arsenal if china starts sabre-rattling too much.
* Why higher taxes will help the country
face it, america needs money and taxing the rich more would be a good way to get that money. its not like taxing the rich more would suddenly prevent them from living out on the streets.
* Why a 1000+ page long bill should be trusted.
why shouldn't it? while i agree its probably full of crap, that doesn't mean you cant trust any bill because its long. "durr its long so it must be bad" is just dumb populist crap that thinks the only effective things are simple things.
[QUOTE=Xystus234;19094677][B]Communism doesn't work because it's based on ideals. [/B]There is no ideals, ideals are [b]fantasy[/b]. You can have goals, things to work toward, but once that 's done, something else will come up after that or on the way. Otherwise it's just daydreaming, fantasy, and doublethink. Adaptability and pragmatism is what counts.
Look at Reagan, for better or worse he accomplished his ideals, but it eventually turned into the mess we have today.[/QUOTE]
I'm not communist, if you knew as much as you were claiming you probably would've worked out my avatar is Stalin. How are ideals fantasy? That makes no sense, communism doesn't only work if everything is perfect in the same way capitalism doesn't only work if everything is perfect. I think you're just reciting what you've seen in previous arguments.
[editline]03:55PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Xystus234;19094677][B]Communism doesn't work because it's based on ideals. [/B]There is no ideals, ideals are [b]fantasy[/b]. You can have goals, things to work toward, but once that 's done, something else will come up after that or on the way. Otherwise it's just daydreaming, fantasy, and doublethink. Adaptability and pragmatism is what counts.
Look at Reagan, for better or worse he accomplished his ideals, but it eventually turned into the mess we have today. His ideals were really goals. He accomplished them, but it didn't last long.[/QUOTE]
Is the Reagan reference to do with communism? I really don't get what you're trying to advocate if you hate both communism and the height of capitalism.
[QUOTE=Xystus234;19094677][B]Communism doesn't work because it's based on ideals. [/B]There is no ideals, ideals are [b]fantasy[/b]. You can have goals, things to work toward, but once that 's done, something else will come up after that or on the way. Otherwise it's just daydreaming, fantasy, and doublethink. Adaptability and pragmatism is what counts.
Look at Reagan, for better or worse he accomplished his ideals, but it eventually turned into the mess we have today. His ideals were really goals. He accomplished them, but it didn't last long.[/QUOTE]
wait you say that ideals are fantasies then you say reagan accomplished his ideals.
what the fuck. its like you were trying to be intellectual but then farted out halfway through the paragraph
[QUOTE=Ziron;19094771]wait you say that ideals are fantasies then you say reagan accomplished his ideals.
what the fuck. its like you were trying to be intellectual but then farted out halfway through the paragraph[/QUOTE]
He doesn't understand what he is arguing.
Edit: Actually I think he is trying to say Regan was good which is both hilarious and sad.
I think what he means is, romanticized and passionate beliefs become so clouded in emotion the logic stops being a major factor. This is where logical people exploit their stupidity. On Reagan, he mentioned he may have gone through with decisions with ideals in mind and made good of it, but it made a good pinch of our current deficit.
[QUOTE=Sir_Theseus;19094811]I think what he means is, romanticized and passionate beliefs become so clouded in emotion the logic stops being a major factor. This is where logical people exploit their stupidity. On Reagan, he mentioned he may have gone through with decisions with ideals in mind and made good of it, but it made a good pinch of our current deficit.[/QUOTE]
He doesn't understand how communism works then.
[QUOTE=SomethingAwful;19094800]He doesn't understand what he is arguing.
Edit: Actually I think he is trying to say Regan was good which is both hilarious and sad.[/QUOTE]
lol i think its both. his reagan comment is basically "i hate conservatives but MAN reagan was a great guy because he stuck to his guns", which is basically admitting that reagan was good
[QUOTE=Sir_Theseus;19094811]I think what he means is, romanticized and passionate beliefs become so clouded in emotion the logic stops being a major factor. This is where logical people exploit their stupidity. On Reagan, he mentioned he may have gone through with decisions with ideals in mind and made good of it, but it made a good pinch of our current deficit.[/QUOTE]
The other side works the same way. Laissez faire capitalists always have some convoluted way in which the free market wall adapt it's self to everyone's needs, and how "the customer is always right" will banish all possible problems.
You know the final realization that I've had from this is, all opinions suck ass. Pragmatism sucks too. I suppose we're all balancing on a book that's on a beach ball. We have to go in the most logical direction at the time, and in the end we'll have to go the other way next.
[QUOTE=Sir_Theseus;19094924]You know the final realization that I've had from this is, all opinions suck ass. Pragmatism sucks too. I suppose we're all balancing on a book that's on a beach ball. We have to go in the most logical direction at the time, and in the end we'll have to go the other way next.[/QUOTE]
Yes.
[QUOTE=lmaoboat;19094865]The other side works the same way. Laissez faire capitalists always have some convoluted way in which the free market wall adapt it's self to everyone's needs, and how "the customer is always right" will banish all possible problems.[/QUOTE]
Democratic capitalism is bad because it is a democratic government with a fascist economy
All of the systems are flawed really, I have a centralist left view because I favor the equality of the left but I am centralist because extremes of anything are bad.
[QUOTE=SomethingAwful;19094962]Democratic capitalism is bad because it is a democratic government with a fascist economy
All of the systems are flawed really, I have a centralist left view because I favor the equality of the left but I am centralist because extremes of anything are bad.[/QUOTE]
I agree entirely. In fact, you just described my exact political standpoint.
It's all an issue of balance, and that balance can only be found through experimentation.
[QUOTE=Sir_Theseus;19093051]Why a 1000+ page long bill should be trusted.
[/QUOTE]
I didn't think libertarians were big on anti-intellectualism.
[QUOTE=SomethingAwful;19094742]I'm not communist, if you knew as much as you were claiming you probably would've worked out my avatar is Stalin. How are ideals fantasy? That makes no sense, communism doesn't only work if everything is perfect in the same way capitalism doesn't only work if everything is perfect. I think you're just reciting what you've seen in previous arguments.
[editline]03:55PM[/editline]
Is the Reagan reference to do with communism? I really don't get what you're trying to advocate if you hate both communism and the height of capitalism.[/QUOTE]
I'm trying to advocate that leftism and rightism are both concepts which are meaningless and narrow minded. Rightism is essentially "Fuck you, you're in my way", while Leftism is essentially "Fuck you, that's not right". If anything, what I'm trying to say is that you can never have an ideal society because it just never works. Ideas are just something we make up. Once the effects of the efforts related to the ideas wear off and the reformers and idealists back away, reality starts to set in and new problems arise from the effort of the last idealism. They accomplished the goal, deregulate the economy, overthrow the Tzar and redistribute the wealth, but there was never a method of retaining it because of human nature. Even if you put all the effort in the world to accomplishing an ideal society and keeping it, eventually when people start taking it for granted, or getting used to it, or for a million other reasons it will start corroding again. Human nature corrodes societies to an equilibrium. Nietzsche called it "Nihilism", but that's more of a combination of doubt and temptation. What I'm talking about is how we're wired.
If anything, we should find a system that will be compatible with human nature and yet is stable. China had a system that worked for almost 5000 years, Western civilization however fucked it all up in the past 200.
There. Now go mad from the revelation.
[editline]03:22AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Sir_Theseus;19094811]I think what he means is, romanticized and passionate beliefs become so clouded in emotion the logic stops being a major factor. This is where logical people exploit their stupidity. On Reagan, he mentioned he may have gone through with decisions with ideals in mind and made good of it, but it made a good pinch of our current deficit.[/QUOTE]
Bingo. Reagan wanted to create this "1930's" vision of the country in the 1980's. He got it. But it was an illusion of nostalgia and fantasy that didn't last long.
[editline]03:26AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Sir_Theseus;19094924]You know the final realization that I've had from this is, all opinions suck ass. Pragmatism sucks too. I suppose we're all balancing on a book that's on a beach ball. We have to go in the most logical direction at the time, and in the end we'll have to go the other way next.[/QUOTE]
Exactly.
We need another Reagan
Palin is the closest tbh
[QUOTE=That 0ther Guy;19095238]We need another Reagan
Palin is the closest tbh[/QUOTE]
palin is just an opportunist that mostly doesnt believe what she says. i mean its pretty obvious that her "folksy" image is just an act
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
