• [TotalBiscuit] Overwatch's Strong Animal Heroes and that one Winston pose
    182 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;50025729]The real question is why are folks acting like one animation lost is like a slippery slope to Blizzard bowing down before SJWs? I seriously just think this whole controversy is just a pointless banter over one animation being lost. $5 everyone is going to forget about this soon enough, because one animation lost isn't the whole game reworked over one post. It's one pose, and just one pose. I say that this video by TB, and the reaction over it, is just as silly as Blizzard removing the pose over that one major post. Don't get me wrong I still like TB, but. It's just one god damn pose guys. I hardly think "Artistic vision" is in danger because one piece of animation, against every other piece of animation in this game, got removed to avoid the risk of angering SJWs.[/QUOTE] You just can't get it to your head that people don't care about the pose, can you? People have explained this to you numerous times now. You just ignore it and restate your position every time. I mean, people are telling you why they are upset about this and you just go "no no no, that's not the real reason, I know better what you think, you are overreacting that they've removed an insignificant, tiny piece of content, and it has no context whatsoever".
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50025811]You just can't get it to your head that people don't care about the pose, can you? People have explained this to you numerous times now. You just ignore it and restate your position every time. I mean, people are telling you why they are upset about this and you just go "no no no, that's not the real reason, I know better what you think, you are overreacting that they've removed an insignificant, tiny piece of content, and it has no context whatsoever".[/QUOTE] Because I know it's fucking stupid, but it I would feel just as stupid fighting for "artistic vision being infringed upon" is legit just one animation, and I'm the only one here that sees it as one animation. They're not redesigning Tracer or Widowmaker, they're not removing animations out the whazoo, they're not removing a bunch of animations, and I would just feel like a moron for fighting against Blizzard over this crap. I feel there are better things and better reasons to crusade for something better in the gaming industry, not crap like this. period. Plus even if I did throw my senses out the window and join the rest of you in being upset and fighting over this, where is this going to go? Are we going to try to get this animation back? Is it even worth our time? Blizzard could easily ingore us and pander to the SJW in the forums. I never said any of what you guys were saying was wrong, I never said TB was wrong. I just think this is going to turn into another battleground for the whole Gamergate bullshit I never cared for two years ago, and still don't care about now.
...You're not even bothering to read people's replies, are you?
[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;50025888]Because I know it's fucking stupid, but it I would feel just as stupid fighting for "artistic vision being infringed upon" is legit just one animation, and I'm the only one here that sees it as one animation. They're not redesigning Tracer or Widowmaker, they're not removing animations out the whazoo, they're not removing a bunch of animations, and I would just feel like a moron for fighting against Blizzard over this crap. I feel there are better things and better reasons to crusade for something better in the gaming industry, not crap like this. period. Plus even if I did throw my senses out the window and join the rest of you in being upset and fighting over this, where is this going to go? Are we going to try to get this animation back? Is it even worth our time? Blizzard could easily ingore us and pander to the SJW in the forums. I never said any of what you guys were saying was wrong, I never said TB was wrong. I just think this is going to turn into another battleground for the whole Gamergate bullshit I never cared for two years ago, and still don't care about now.[/QUOTE] No one is going on a crusade about this. It's just a large number of people expressing that they are displeased with Blizzard's logic. (Yes, some of those people are overreacting, please don't make your entire reply about that handful.) No one is crying that the game is ruined or that they have changed something significant. Stop with the "one pose" and "they are not redesigning entire characters". Nobody is making these arguments. You are debating imaginary people. No one cares about this pose or if Blizzard puts it back in the game. Stop repeating this shit. People don't give a fuck about the pose okay? Get it to your head. People are upset about the Blizzards logic. That logic being: "It offends someone, we're gonna remove it." It doesn't matter how big the thing they have removed was. They have given us proof that they will censor themselves in fear of offending people with puny things. Maybe not tomorrow but sometime in the future they will throw out ideas of characters (for instance similar to widowmaker) or outfits (for instance nova) because of this. And who knows what else they will change next time someone complains about things being offensive? They have shown us that they are okay with that. That's the only thing people are upset about.
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[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;50025888]Because I know it's fucking stupid, but it I would feel just as stupid fighting for "artistic vision being infringed upon" is legit just one animation, and I'm the only one here that sees it as one animation. They're not redesigning Tracer or Widowmaker, they're not removing animations out the whazoo, they're not removing a bunch of animations, and I would just feel like a moron for fighting against Blizzard over this crap. I feel there are better things and better reasons to crusade for something better in the gaming industry, not crap like this. period. Plus even if I did throw my senses out the window and join the rest of you in being upset and fighting over this, where is this going to go? Are we going to try to get this animation back? Is it even worth our time? Blizzard could easily ingore us and pander to the SJW in the forums. [b]I never said any of what you guys were saying was wrong, I never said TB was wrong. I just think this is going to turn into another battleground for the whole Gamergate bullshit I never cared for two years ago, and still don't care about now.[/b][/QUOTE] As new super moderator of facepunch I'll be removing all the posts you don't agree with. The last thing we want is for something you don't care about to turn into a bigger thing you don't care about, that's vaguely related to another thing you don't care about. Apologies and we'll continue to try to do better. To be real though [quote]Plus even if I did throw my senses out the window and join the rest of you in being upset and fighting over this, where is this going to go? Are we going to try to get this animation back? Is it even worth our time? [b]Blizzard could easily ingore us and pander to the SJW in the forums.[/b] [/quote] So just forget about it and let it keep happening? Like how everyone forgets Ubisoft kills their games? Or how companies are still shoving online only DRM down peoples throats? Or more developers adding useless money grubbing microtransactions? You are literally advocating for Blizzard to continue to "pander to the SJW in the forums" just because we can't stop it, yet in your first few sentences you're saying, it's not a slippery slope! It's just one animation! It's just one game company! It's not a big deal! So is it just one animation or are the SJWs in the forums (your words) real and actually in danger of making dumb changes to the game? Where is it going to go? Who knows. But why let it slide and continue to happen? The very least people can do is raise a stink about it.
As long as they don't un-sexualize my waifu windowmaker, Blizz can go wild.
[QUOTE=J!NX;50024983]I think its a joke for different reasons The pose should never have been removed the fact that anyone even complained at all in the first place is frankly laughable I'm not even sure how this became a controversy in the first place I can see why people are annoyed though, its a really stupid show of weakness on blizzards part but tbh its not too big of an issue. TB's video summarizes how silly the complaint was quite well.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Marik Bentusi;50023805]Alright purely from an artistic point of view I feel the need to point out some key differences here: [t]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/22370734/overwatchposeswap1.jpg[/t] [t]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/22370734/overwatchposeswap2.jpg[/t] To clarify, the black lines are traced over the reference images, and red is my (lazy) take on a body pose that resembles the other character's, ignoring arms. Feel free to argue about whether sexy poses are out of place or suitable or whatever, but purely from an artistic perspective I'd definitely say Tracer's uses common "sexy pose" composition tropes. I'm not here to pass judgment on that, but I felt the need to point it out.[/QUOTE] These two post I completely agree on Its a huge fucking joke that both sides are at each others necks over a simple Y axis placement of a lower torso. Who cares about the posing of over the shoulder if it shows ass, thats kinda what we have on our back sides, not like its anything new. At the same time it is a really odd position for some one to be standing "triumphantly" in admittedly. I really don't care about her ass being pushed out about it. more her poor fucking back after doing it after winning so much.
[QUOTE=rndgenerator;50026391]As long as they don't un-sexualize my waifu windowmaker, Blizz can go wild.[/QUOTE] The only way to do that is by removing her altogether or giving her a burqa.
[QUOTE=Zang-Pog;50026638]I kinda find it ridiculous Blizzard decided to listen to one person and change something in Overwatch, when their designs in earlier games have been textbook example of sexism where dudes = big, stronk men and women = skimpy armor wearing boobelfs[/QUOTE] I don't understand this logic at all. Because they had "sexist" designs in the past, they should stick to them? Someone posted a concern, Bliz thought it was valid and changed it. It is ridiculous, but not at all for the "reasons" you stated.
[QUOTE=Davoc;50025522]It's okay guys, it's not pandering because they said so. It just so happened that they wanted to change the pose at the same time the single person made their complaint :v:[/QUOTE] Yeah it's too suspicious for it to be mere coincidence.
If I ever end up making a game I'll add a "non offensive mode" in the options. When you activate it, it will quit the game.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;50025608]how they can make this change to accommodate people who get offended at it, and yet still have fucking [I]widowmaker[/I] in the game is fucking mindboggling[/QUOTE] I guess its because the pose would better suit Widowmaker. I think Blizzard's change is the best of all worlds. [url]http://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20743015583?page=11#post-210[/url] [quote=Jeff Kaplan]Well, that escalated quickly… While I stand by my previous comment, I realize I should have been more clear. As the game director, I have final creative say over what does or does not go into the game. With this particular decision, it was an easy one to make—not just for me, but for the art team as well. We actually already have an alternate pose that we love and we feel speaks more to the character of Tracer. We weren’t entirely happy with the original pose, it was always one that we wrestled with creatively. That the pose had been called into question from an appropriateness standpoint by players in our community did help influence our decision—getting that kind of feedback is part of the reason we’re holding a closed beta test—but it wasn’t the only factor. We made the decision to go with a different pose in part because we shared some of the same concerns, but also because we wanted to create something better. We wouldn’t do anything to sacrifice our creative vision for Overwatch, and we’re not going to remove something solely because someone may take issue with it. Our goal isn’t to water down or homogenize the world, or the diverse cast of heroes we’ve built within it. We have poured so much of our heart and souls into this game that it would be a travesty for us to do so. We understand that not everyone will agree with our decision, and that’s okay. That’s what these kinds of public tests are for. This wasn’t pandering or caving, though. This was the right call from our perspective, and we think the game will be just as fun the next time you play it. If it isn’t, feel free to continue sharing your concerns, thoughts, and feedback about this and other issues you may have with the game, please just keep the discussion respectful. Thanks, jeffrey (btw, unlocking this thread. please continue the discussion here)[/quote] [editline]29th March 2016[/editline] And by the way, I don't consider Kaplan to be *pandering* as you say. There are two ways to read Kaplans post. 1.) any inclusion of sexuality makes the game "unsafe" (this is where you levy the charge that its a contradiction b/c widowmaker is in the game) OR, you can read the post as: 2.) Throwing sex appeal into a character that isn't ABOUT THAT is what makes the game "unsafe" (i.e: keep widow, change pose for tracer)
[QUOTE=BeardyDuck;50025399]kaplan posted an update [url]http://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20743015583?page=11#211[/url] tbh this entire post just sounds like PR after meeting unexpected backlash. if they themselves didn't like it and was already working on a replacement, why wait to remove it until somebody complained about it? why put it in the game in the first place?[/QUOTE] I don't know exactly why people are upset about this non-apology, it's the best thing they could have done for all parties. It doesn't give in to any one side (thus helping to prevent further drama) and it stops the slippery slope problem, because it expresses (whether it's true or not) that one complaint wasn't actually enough to change the pose, it was a combination of factors, so that eliminates the precedent of changing things based on a single complaint and makes them less likely to bend over for the next person. I don't know if I believe it, but even if it's a lie, it's the best thing they could have said, which wouldn't cause them more problems.
[url]http://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20742925791[/url] Stuff like this doesn't make sense to me A: I think this pose glorifies a strong female character as just another sex object. B: I don't really care about the pose, but out of principle we should keep it in the game bc fuck videogame cenorship! Blizard! Take a stand with your real fanbase and keep it in the game! C-Z: Yeaaaaaah!!!
[QUOTE=Flameon;50026970][url]http://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20742925791[/url] Stuff like this doesn't make sense to me A: I think this pose glorifies a strong female character as just another sex object. B: I don't really care about the pose, but out of principle we should keep it in the game bc fuck videogame cenorship! Blizard! Take a stand with your real fanbase and keep it in the game! C-Z: Yeaaaaaah!!![/QUOTE] idk video games are fantasy and if they want to have their characters like that then fine, just be consistent; don't muddle it down and be lame on all fronts. There are always going to be people that attack a design choice.
[QUOTE=Marik Bentusi;50023805]Alright purely from an artistic point of view I feel the need to point out some key differences here: [t]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/22370734/overwatchposeswap1.jpg[/t] [t]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/22370734/overwatchposeswap2.jpg[/t] To clarify, the black lines are traced over the reference images, and red is my (lazy) take on a body pose that resembles the other character's, ignoring arms. Feel free to argue about whether sexy poses are out of place or suitable or whatever, but purely from an artistic perspective I'd definitely say Tracer's uses common "sexy pose" composition tropes. I'm not here to pass judgment on that, but I felt the need to point it out.[/QUOTE] If we're going to play this game, then the entire pose idea is shit but Tracer's one looks more appealing as standing straight like the guys are even more uninteresting. Tracer's clothes are also tighter and smaller so it stands out more.
[QUOTE=thrawn2787;50024976]Nice to see there's one person I can reverberate off of to help me create an echo chamber.[/QUOTE] Do you not see the irony in your post? A tiny minority in this thread agrees with the logic in the original post, or thinks it's not the epitome of insanity that others make it out to be, and you use the echo chamber argument against them? Your opinion is the one that is by far the most repeated in this thread. Your argument makes no sense. [editline]29th March 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Helix Snake;50026932]I don't know exactly why people are upset about this non-apology, it's the best thing they could have done for all parties. It doesn't give in to any one side (thus helping to prevent further drama) and it stops the slippery slope problem, because it expresses (whether it's true or not) that one complaint wasn't actually enough to change the pose, it was a combination of factors, so that eliminates the precedent of changing things based on a single complaint and makes them less likely to bend over for the next person. I don't know if I believe it, but even if it's a lie, it's the best thing they could have said, which wouldn't cause them more problems.[/QUOTE] People are upset because they're unable to put themselves in the nuanced situation Blizzard is facing. This is evidently a black and white situation in many peoples eyes.
I'll say here what I said during the R. Mika discussion- as long as they replace it with something else, I don't care. The problem I had with the censorship of the R. Mika ass-slap was that all they did to "fix" it was move the camera up- the sound effect and the animation is still there, you just can't see it. This lazy fix not only pisses off the people who hate this kind of thing, but also doesn't alleviate the problems that SJWs mention. If Blizzard were to pull off a similarly lazy action and just remove this animation from the game, I would be just as dissapointed here as I was back then- if they were to make a new animation that was equally as boring as the one that will get removed, I can't say I'd have a problem with it.
Honestly I don't see why they would make all this waifu material and then cater to people who don't like sexuality. Like, did people notice [I]now[/I] that Tracer is kinda hot?
[QUOTE=Annoyed Grunt;50028484]Honestly I don't see why they would make all this waifu material and then cater to people who don't like sexuality. Like, did people notice [I]now[/I] that Tracer is kinda hot?[/QUOTE] Tracer a shit.
[QUOTE=Crimor;50033681]Tracer a shit.[/QUOTE] Tobjorn is the best waifu
[QUOTE=Katatonic717;50023506]"I don't want to buy an entire game I was excited for because they made one dumb decision"[/QUOTE] Yes, one dumb decision, because EXACTLY ONE PERSON was offended. I don't feel like giving money to people who react to literally [I]one person's complaint[/I] like this.
[QUOTE=Crimor;50033681]Tracer a shit.[/QUOTE] Annoying Tomboy > Purple Sniper Cammy > Egyptian Samus > Minisentry Fetishist > Literal Angel Mary Sue > LOL Pro Player > Velma > Heavy Weapons Girl
[QUOTE=Annoyed Grunt;50028484]Honestly I don't see why they would make all this waifu material and then cater to people who don't like sexuality. Like, did people notice [I]now[/I] that Tracer is kinda hot?[/QUOTE] Blizzard handle sex like a 14 year old. All their female characters have big tits and usually wear revealing/skintight clothes. But don't talk about it or they get all embarrassed.
[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;50025729]The real question is why are folks acting like one animation lost is like a slippery slope to Blizzard bowing down before SJWs?[/QUOTE] Because you [i]dolt[/i], unless you've been living under a literal rock for about the past half a year, this has been happening at an increasing rate. Either content is released, then censored, or content is preemptively self-censored, hell, the entirety of Fire Emblem fates is a completely different story because of this shit. I'll probably get flak for this next bit, or most of the people talking like... [QUOTE] Tbqh this isnt that serious fam lmao smh fml [/QUOTE] Are gonna target this [i]one[/i] detail, but a developer of Senran Kagura has even gone on record in an interview saying that it's a slippery slope when it comes to censorship, that with patterns like this it eventually turns into "I don't think we should censor this" and the other side in charge of the decisions going "Well why not? X censored their game, they censored [i]this[/i] much, we should be fine with censorship." Sure this might be the first decision like this for Blizzard, an idiotic one at that, but the industry as a whole has been continuing this. [QUOTE=Katatonic717;50023506]"I don't want to buy an entire game I was excited for because they made one dumb decision"[/QUOTE] Congrats you've constructed your first strawman! Now continue to stay blind to the facts and reasons why people are blown away by the situation, and enjoy contributing nothing to the conversation.
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/6E8UZTa.png[/IMG] No sir there's no increasing problem with censorship/localization definetly not.
Look the problem I have with people getting outraged over it, is the fact that it was Blizzard's decision to do it. Self-censorship is not censorship. It was not someone else censoring it. It's clear from Jeff Kaplan that this was an effort made by the creative team that somewhat already agreed with it. As well as this, people jumped the gun and immediately thought this was Blizzard bowing down to some "SJW" overlords. This kind of thinking is irrational. Just because some Japanese companies have started to censor their games for the western market, does not mean that some western developer changing the animation of one single character means that that western developer is immediately caving. Even if it was due to caving, and not a conscious art change, I still find it ridiculous that people were blaming the company for it. It's the same thing with these Japanese games. People must look from a point of view other than their own, and realize that from a company's perspective, these supposedly sexualized animations, outfits, poses and whatnot would only hurt their profits in the more conservative markets of America. If people want to get outraged, they should get outraged on our societies views on women and sexuality, not at companies caught in the crossfire, just trying to sell their wares. It's pointless if you do it anyways, because the root cause of the problem is not the companies themselves, but rather our own views. In summation, the removal of content by artists themselves, especially if it's being replaced by something else, is not censorship, and when it does end up being censored by the company, it's because of our own society. I feel as if this post is going to get quite a few boxes for this, but this needs to be said.
[QUOTE=TornadoAP;50037834]Look the problem I have with people getting outraged over it, is the fact that it was Blizzard's decision to do it. Self-censorship is not censorship. It was not someone else censoring it. It's clear from Jeff Kaplan that this was an effort made by the creative team that somewhat already agreed with it. As well as this, people jumped the gun and immediately thought this was Blizzard bowing down to some "SJW" overlords. This kind of thinking is irrational. Just because some Japanese companies have started to censor their games for the western market, does not mean that some western developer changing the animation of one single character means that that western developer is immediately caving. Even if it was due to caving, and not a conscious art change, I still find it ridiculous that people were blaming the company for it. It's the same thing with these Japanese games. People must look from a point of view other than their own, and realize that from a company's perspective, these supposedly sexualized animations, outfits, poses and whatnot would only hurt their profits in the more conservative markets of America. If people want to get outraged, they should get outraged on our societies views on women and sexuality, not at companies caught in the crossfire, just trying to sell their wares. It's pointless if you do it anyways, because the root cause of the problem is not the companies themselves, but rather our own views. In summation, the removal of content by artists themselves, especially if it's being replaced by something else, is not censorship, and when it does end up being censored by the company, it's because of our own society. I feel as if this post is going to get quite a few boxes for this, but this needs to be said.[/QUOTE] Self censorship isn't censorship? Then pray tell, why the fuck is it called Self [B]Censorship[/B]? It's in the very fucking term. This shit has been happening more and more over the past few years and in the case of fire emblem fates it's like we got a completely different fucking game as opposed to what Japan got. Look at bravely default and bravely second, both of them were censored when localized, and bravely second cut out even more content than its predecessor. It's no longer applicable to just call them version differences, we are literally getting watered down/inferior versions of these games. It's no longer cosmetic things, we are getting actual content/plot/gameplay removed for fear of offending a minority that doesn't even have a good track record of supporting the things that do cater directly to them. Yes, blizzard removed a single pose, that was entirely optional to use and that only ONE person complained about. This is how this shit starts. Mark my words somebody will find something else to bitch about in Overwatch and then more content will be removed in an effort to appease the minority. Where do you draw the fucking line with people like this? At what point do you say "try something else" or God forbid "perhaps our game is not for you then?" It is by definition a non-isolated incident because IT KEEPS HAPPENING!
[QUOTE=Mattk50;50036075][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/6E8UZTa.png[/IMG] No sir there's no increasing problem with censorship/localization definetly not.[/QUOTE] Something that I think you have to take into consideration when comparing these 2 cases is that stuff like this is super normal for japan, and that something like the tracer incident is a lot more rare in the west (to my knowledge, at least). Though that doesn't mean this won't be the start of a problem, but hey, hope for the best prepare for the worst, y'know?
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