Tropes vs Women in Video Games - Damsel in Distress - General

I disagree with her saying women being the weaker sex is a "socially constructed myth" There's a reason we have separate Olympics for women/men. Other than that, it was a solid video giving examples of the trope.

[QUOTE=Quantuam VTX;39838640]I disagree with her saying women being the weaker sex is a "socially constructed myth" There's a reason we have separate Olympics for women/men.[/QUOTE] the olympics are a social construct as well; we arent biologically geared towards doing anything that happen in olympics, thats why its a feat of strength that not many people can do the sex segregation of the olympics happened way before we knew anything about physiology, so that's not the reason

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;39837263]psst [img]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3797350/ShareX/2013-03/2013-03-08_01-29-52.png[/img][/QUOTE] Exactly. Some people said she should have donated most of it, but I'd have been pissed if I contributed and it did not go to what I wanted it to go to.

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;39838619]Replace peach with luigi. Would that still be an issue or is it okay that hes a guy? Im honestly failing to see Anitas fucking point here.[/QUOTE] Luigi's a playable character in a lot of the (main) games, also you know he's a dude right.

[QUOTE=thisispain;39838669]the olympics are a social construct as well; we arent biologically geared towards doing anything that happen in olympics, thats why its a feat of strength that not many people can do the sex segregation of the olympics happened way before we knew anything about physiology, so that's not the reason[/QUOTE] Running and jumping are social constructs? I mean running and jumping social constructs lmao

[QUOTE=Quantuam VTX;39838640]I disagree with her saying women being the weaker sex is a "socially constructed myth" There's a reason we have separate Olympics for women/men. Other than that, it was a solid video giving examples of the trope.[/QUOTE] Even Plato said that women could be stronger than men, though he still fell back on the argument that most men were stronger than most women. If women were seen as those who are supposed to be stronger, I bet most women would be stronger than most guys, although guys are seen as naturally predisposed to be stronger.

[QUOTE=Viper_;39838693]Running and jumping are social constructs? I mean running and jumping social constructs lmao[/QUOTE] thats all the olympics are just running and jumping anyone could do it [editline]7th March 2013[/editline] eat a fart

This entire thing is a clusterfuck and won't help anything but Anita's coffers. You could write pages on why Anita is a complete dumbass and this is far from helping feminism, but that's only a secondary issue when compared to all the bullshit surrounding this campaign and her disgraceful PR methods. Ideally she would just be noise working against actual efforts, but this has gotten to the point of setting up a strawman. Rather than making any arguments she just spouts tropes, goes on for far too long about nothing, and frames things in a radical feminist viewpoint where everything is objectification. Where people would normally consider feminism because who gives a fuck about keeping the same story arc, she has become the face of it and it's associated with hypocrisy, anti-rationalism, cherry-picking and general idiocy. Breakdown of the video is 80% explaining how the trope works and examples of it, about what you'd expect given the name but not really helpful to anyone who knows shit about video games. In what little discussion there is you'd think she'd go into the why of things and try to understand them, but that would be asking too much of poor little Anita. Overall it's an introduction course that contributes nothing to the public discourse. No solutions, expositions, insights or even reasoning, just her teaching her class of attentive little pupils, for a droning 23 minutes.

[QUOTE=thisispain;39838706]thats all the olympics are just running and jumping anyone could do it [editline]7th March 2013[/editline] eat a fart[/QUOTE] Are you saying that Olympic events are not valid tests of strength because the patriarchy made them? So what would be a valid way to show that men and women are physically equal?

[QUOTE=Devodiere;39838805]This entire thing is a clusterfuck and won't help anything but Anita's coffers. You could write pages on why Anita is a complete dumbass and this is far from helping feminism, but that's only a secondary issue when compared to all the bullshit surrounding this campaign and her disgraceful PR methods.[/QUOTE] are you a feminist?

[QUOTE=Viper_;39838812]Are you saying that Olympic events are not valid tests of strength because the patriarchy made them?[/QUOTE] yes that's exactly what im saying [editline]7th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Devodiere;39838805]This entire thing is a clusterfuck and won't help anything but Anita's coffers. You could write pages on why Anita is a complete dumbass and this is far from helping feminism, but that's only a secondary issue when compared to all the bullshit surrounding this campaign and her disgraceful PR methods. Ideally she would just be noise working against actual efforts, but this has gotten to the point of setting up a strawman. Rather than making any arguments she just spouts tropes, goes on for far too long about nothing, and frames things in a radical feminist viewpoint where everything is objectification. Where people would normally consider feminism because who gives a fuck about keeping the same story arc, she has become the face of it and it's associated with hypocrisy, anti-rationalism, cherry-picking and general idiocy. Breakdown of the video is 80% explaining how the trope works and examples of it, about what you'd expect given the name but not really helpful to anyone who knows shit about video games. In what little discussion there is you'd think she'd go into the why of things and try to understand them, but that would be asking too much of poor little Anita. Overall it's an introduction course that contributes nothing to the public discourse. No solutions, expositions, insights or even reasoning, just her teaching her class of attentive little pupils, for a droning 23 minutes.[/QUOTE] i have no idea why you are so angry nothings a "cluster-fuck", this is really not a complex issue she's just not very good at her job, but you know what, i respect that because she's trying even when there are people who just call her a dumbass and dont contribute anything except posts that are way more aggressive than they should be because "bitch wants to ruin my fun". breakdown of this video: a reasonable 20 minutes of exposition in which she deposits the theory that damsels in distress objectify women because they turn women into objects for characters to fight over rather than a character with her own interests watch the video and calm your tits before you post

Jesus H. Fuckballs this thread didn't waste any time going to the gutter did it? I may not agree with how this woman presents her arguments (even if the issue itself is an important one), but some of you guys need to learn how to be civil. Anyways, in regards to the video, I'm a bit disappointed. I agree that the damsel-in-distress plot is almost always lazy and, if poorly implemented, can be demeaning. What aggravates me is that she's not bringing up any point that hasn't been brought up umpteen times before, and she's using very antiquated examples to prove said point. I'm hoping that part 2 presents some strong examples of "games that do it right", as well as providing some strong and original ideas as to how we can move away from this cliched, but clearly successful trope. Guess we'll see.

[QUOTE=Shadaez;39838832]are you a feminist?[/QUOTE] You checking my credentials first or is that an accusation? I consider myself a Liberal Feminist with equality foremost, taking into account anthropological differences between genders of course. On the topic of video games there is a good deal of sexism, both in the fanbase and in devs, but the majority traces back to poor writing and reliance on tropes rather than inherent misogyny, Hanlon's razor if you would.

[QUOTE=JeanLuc761;39838898]What aggravates me is that she's not bringing up any point that hasn't been brought up umpteen times before, and she's using very antiquated examples to prove said point. [/QUOTE] you could say the same thing about any philosophical work that uses apology or euthyphro as a framework for morality i dont see why that's a negative??? how does that affect her point be specific, i dont understand why that aggravates you [editline]7th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Devodiere;39838909]You checking my credentials first or is that an accusation? [/QUOTE] no hes asking what position you are in to quantify anita's impact on feminism; you sounded pretty certain with your statement there [quote]but the majority traces back to poor writing and reliance on tropes rather than inherent misogyny, Hanlon's razor if you would.[/quote] inherent misogyny can be linked stupidity or at least ignorance. i dont see why thats a point that needs to be raised or how that makes anita a dumbass.

[QUOTE=Devodiere;39838909]You checking my credentials first or is that an accusation? I consider myself a Liberal Feminist with equality foremost, taking into account anthropological differences between genders of course. On the topic of video games there is a good deal of sexism, both in the fanbase and in devs, but the majority traces back to poor writing and reliance on tropes rather than inherent misogyny, Hanlon's razor if you would.[/QUOTE] OK, well I don't see how a feminist could see this as a negative thing. Bringing awareness to sexism in video game culture is great, regardless of how well it satisfies what you think it should be. If this isn't good enough for you, actually do something. This has a ton of publicity around it. People are going to notice and hopefully be more aware of shit. [editline]7th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=thisispain;39838917] no hes asking what position you are in to quantify anita's impact on feminism; you sounded pretty certain with your statement there[/QUOTE] you're so good with words, that's exactly what I was doing

[QUOTE=Shadaez;39838684]Luigi's a playable character in a lot of the (main) games, also you know he's a dude right.[/QUOTE] Yeah I realize hes a dude, my question was. Replace peach with Luigi. Would it be a problem still? And if not, why?

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;39839011]Yeah I realize hes a dude, my question was. Replace peach with Luigi. Would it be a problem still? And if not, why?[/QUOTE] No, because Luigi is a man and men aren't underrepresented, and when they are represented in games it usually isn't passively or negatively. How do you not get this.

If about half the reaction from these types of projects (judging from this thread and the dumb as shit /v/ game award results) is pure misogynistic scorn or denial, it is not surprising that more of these types of videos are articles about sexism are not popping up.

[QUOTE=thisispain;39838917]you could say the same thing about any philosophical work that uses apology or euthyphro as a framework for morality i dont see why that's a negative??? how does that affect her point be specific, i dont understand why that aggravates you[/QUOTE] Sorry, aggravate isn't the right word. I dunno, maybe I went into this with the wrong expectation, but I was hoping for a more original take on the argument. I largely agree with what she's trying to say (and I admit the whole Dinosaur Planet -> Starfox Adventures story was unknown to me), but I don't agree that games like Mario are a good choice for proving your point. Mario is, at its core, about as simple as you can get both in gameplay and in plot. Zelda is a better example, but I think Mario (especially the original) is pretty harmless. Like I said though, I'm interested to see how Part 2 turns out.

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;39839011]Yeah I realize hes a dude, my question was. Replace peach with Luigi. Would it be a problem still? And if not, why?[/QUOTE] why are you asking this question? if youre gonna accuse someone of having a double standard then just do so and stop wasting everyones time tia

[QUOTE=Shadaez;39838970]OK, well I don't see how a feminist could see this as a negative thing. Bringing awareness to sexism in video game culture is great, regardless of how well it satisfies what you think it should be. If this isn't good enough for you, actually do something. This has a ton of publicity around it. People are going to notice and hopefully be more aware of shit. [/QUOTE] No such thing as bad publicity right?

[QUOTE=JeanLuc761;39839039]Sorry, aggravate isn't the right word. I dunno, maybe I went into this with the wrong expectation, but I was hoping for a more original take on the argument. I largely agree with what she's trying to say (and I admit the whole Dinosaur Planet -> Starfox Adventures story was unknown to me), but I don't agree that games like Mario are a good choice for proving your point. Mario is, at its core, about as simple as you can get both in gameplay and in plot. Zelda is a better example, but I think Mario (especially the original) is pretty harmless. [/QUOTE] ok no that's a fair criticism to make and i dont disagree with you

I don't like Nintendo games the next part she'll use different ones I guess but I bet they will still be shitty games

[QUOTE=thisispain;39838855]i have no idea why you are so angry nothings a "cluster-fuck", this is really not a complex issue she's just not very good at her job, but you know what, i respect that because she's trying even when there are people who just call her a dumbass and dont contribute anything except posts that are way more aggressive than they should be because "bitch wants to ruin my fun". breakdown of this video: a reasonable 20 minutes of exposition in which she deposits the theory that damsels in distress objectify women because they turn women into objects for characters to fight over rather than a character with her own interests watch the video and calm your tits before you post[/QUOTE] dis is just how i talk mate, no anger here. I meant the clusterfuck surrounding the delays in production, absurd funding, and general shitstorm caused by it. She may be harassed but when everyone gets harassment on the internet, there's a right way and a wrong way to handle it, guess which she went [url=http://leopirate.com/post/44004741869/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games-a-backers-perspective](complete agreement with this)[/url]. As I said, it's an introduction course that brings up nothing new, gives no background on the trope beyond examples of it, and gives little consideration to anything beyond the trope. When talking about Zelda, despite mentioning that she isn't as useless as other characters, as soon as they brought up the trope it automatically makes her an object of desire, too bad, it's sexist. That's not how it works and giving little consideration to circumstance beyond background to the sexist trope is horribly flawed. And FYI, wrote the first two paragraphs before watching, third after watching, didn't see anything unexpected. [quote]no hes asking what position you are in to quantify anita's impact on feminism; you sounded pretty certain with your statement there[/quote] Well I guess that's the issue then. I prefer a discussion about equality where objectification isn't just seen as something men to do women and where everyone is in agreement on who would win 9/10 in a fight. Anita's axioms are just too different from mine and by most forecasts, they are more likely to have a negative impact on public discourse, compounded with her being an idiot that is. [quote]inherent misogyny can be linked stupidity or at least ignorance. i dont see why thats a point that needs to be raised or how that makes anita a dumbass.[/quote] I didn't mean that the people writing it were stupid, just that they were poor writers. Sexism is the only topic being discussed here but if you were to analyse most video game scripts the other issues become incredibly apparent. It's relevant because that is the root cause of these issues, not the writers being misogynist, and if we want to fix it then that's what to focus on. [QUOTE=Shadaez;39838970]OK, well I don't see how a feminist could see this as a negative thing. Bringing awareness to sexism in video game culture is great, regardless of how well it satisfies what you think it should be. If this isn't good enough for you, actually do something. This has a ton of publicity around it. People are going to notice and hopefully be more aware of shit.[/quote] Explained above, but you also have to take PR into account. Not all publicity is good publicity and Anita has more radicalised people than converted them. Think of the US Tea party and the effect they had, their base was revitalised but those undecided or opposed were made even more opposed and Anita with her poorly thought-out introductory course has become the face for feminism rather than those who know their shit. Would you rather Christopher Hitchens or someone from /r/atheism was the face for secularism? [editline]8th March 2013[/editline] damn, long post but im slow at writing. dont quote it all plz, just pick a few points at a time. dont want this to become tiring

There's absolutely nothing radical about the video... She's basically saying, "Hey these things happen in video games, women shouldn't be objectified and should have good playable characters, too!"

How much longer are we all going to argue :v:

[QUOTE=Shadaez;39839215]There's absolutely nothing radical about the video... She's basically saying, "Hey these things happen in video games, women shouldn't be objectified and should have good playable characters, too!"[/QUOTE] She's not presenting a balanced argument in the slightest, giving no reasons for the things she explains beyond men being sexist, and gives a grade-school lecture that everyone knows rather than showing she actually knows what she's talking about. Rather than contributing to the discourse, she's repeating tired old tropes while ignoring any criticism and raking in huge sums of cash. The impression before was she was just going to complain about everything being sexist with no consideration beyond "is it sexist", and that's what she delivered. It's underwhelming and given everything else, including her doing this kind of shit for free previously anyway, is just poor form.

[QUOTE=Devodiere;39839141]dis is just how i talk mate, no anger here.[/QUOTE] you "talk" like an angry frustrated jerk? ok good 2 know for the future [QUOTE=Devodiere;39839141]I meant the clusterfuck surrounding the delays in production, absurd funding, and general shitstorm caused by it. She may be harassed but when everyone gets harassment on the internet, there's a right way and a wrong way to handle it, guess which she went [url=http://leopirate.com/post/44004741869/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games-a-backers-perspective](complete agreement with this)[/url].[/QUOTE] an utterly manufactured clusterfuck that has no importance to the actual video we are discussing theres no reason to bring that up unless you want to attack her instead of her actual points [QUOTE=Devodiere;39839141]As I said, it's an introduction course that brings up nothing new, gives no background on the trope beyond examples of it, and gives little consideration to anything beyond the trope. When talking about Zelda, despite mentioning that she isn't as useless as other characters, as soon as they brought up the trope it automatically makes her an object of desire, too bad, it's sexist. That's not how it works and giving little consideration to circumstance beyond background to the sexist trope is horribly flawed.[/QUOTE] then how does it work, and why is it flawed??? of course its an "introduction course", thats the point of the video afaik youre saying its bad then saying there wasnt enough of it which is confusing. youre just making ambiguous criticism without any reasoning to justify calling her a dumbass. "gives little consideration to anything beyond the trope". wtf does that even mean, this is supposed to be about one trope [QUOTE=Devodiere;39839141]Anita's axioms are just too different from mine and by most forecasts, they are more likely to have a negative impact on public discourse, compounded with her being an idiot that is.[/QUOTE] i dont even know what you are talking about now with axioms and forecasts youre still not talking about this video btw, youve just focused on why anita is a bad person which is cool and all but i dont care about your analyses, focus on the video please [editline]7th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Devodiere;39839276]She's not presenting a balanced argument in the slightest,[/QUOTE] she calls herself feminist frequency which is clearly conceding that shes not interested in a balanced argument

[QUOTE=IM BATMAN;39839220]How much longer are we all going to argue :v:[/QUOTE] Sometime around when people stop nitpicking for stuff to get offended at. [sp]aka never[/sp]

[QUOTE=IM BATMAN;39839220]How much longer are we all going to argue :v:[/QUOTE] When the world is a better place, and when people stop reacting like children to people trying to make the world a better place. aka never