Tropes vs Women in Video Games - Damsel in Distress - General

[QUOTE=yawmwen;39847881]so in a day and age when people are brought up with video games, movies, and television shows, movies, video games, and television shows can have no impact on culture?[/QUOTE] No, not really. I dont watch Honey Boo Boo and think every southern family is a bunch of fat disgusting fucks because thats what I saw on TV You dont need to say everything twice btw.

[QUOTE=Key_in_skillee;39847717]It seems like a big problem with certain feminists like Anita is that they cannot be pleased by anything. They complain when woman are "damsels in distress", they complain when women are capable but still have to be rescued at some point, they complain when woman are supporting characters because they're not protagonists, They complain about women in action roles because they're just "men with boobs"... Any time you point out a good woman character they will find anything they can wrong with them so that they can keep saying that there aren't enough good woman characters. I've seen people in this very topic do this.[/QUOTE] she's going to do an entire episode on examples of good game characters btw

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;39845713]Gonna be honest. Only hysterical feminists would make a big deal out of this, dont think anyone played a game and thought "Wow this portrayal of women make me think lesser of them" Seriously, no one really gives a fuck except white knights and people like Anita. Not once have I even second guessed peach/zelda or any girl in any video game because its a fucking video game. What pisses me off the most is that people want to change this when all this really would be doing is a form of censorship and its disgusting.[/QUOTE] In some cases, I would say that the publishers are actually the ones censoring/manipulating new ideas. I've heard of some incident where female character designers had to "sex" up their characters because the publisher claimed that the game wouldn't sell well with the public. The point of the series wasn't to censor fiction or piss off males, but to make gamers demand better character development and for publishes to allow developers to search for alternatives. She is criticizing those tropes since they're non-interesting character development templates. [editline]8th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Key_in_skillee;39847717]It seems like a big problem with certain feminists like Anita is that they cannot be pleased by anything. They complain when woman are "damsels in distress", they complain when women are capable but still have to be rescued at some point, they complain when woman are supporting characters because they're not protagonists, [b]They complain about women in action roles because they're just "men with boobs"...[/b] Any time you point out a good woman character they will find anything they can wrong with them so that they can keep saying that there aren't enough good woman characters. I've seen people in this very topic do this. The biggest problems by far concerning sexism and misogyny are in the gaming community themselves, not the storyline and characters of the games. Those are the problems that should be focused on.[/QUOTE] Admittedly, this seemed unreasonable for me, but I'll wait until she explains it in her video.

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;39847936]No, not really. I dont watch Honey Boo Boo and think every southern family is a bunch of fat disgusting fucks because thats what I saw on TV You dont need to say everything twice btw.[/QUOTE] i'm honestly baffled now. the way we perceive the world is impacted by the way we are brought up people are brought up with media such as video games and television shows BUT this media can have no affect on the way we perceive the world. is this some sort of mind game or do you really not grasp logic at all? this is not a logical sequence.

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;39847936]I dont watch Honey Boo Boo and think every southern family is a bunch of fat disgusting fucks because thats what I saw on TV[/QUOTE] this is a pretty bad comparison because that show is really overtly dumb and obviously not about average life... that's why the show exists but that said you and i are not every person - not everyone is as observant or as keen to the media's influence as us. i know plenty of idiots who would probably watch that show and say "lol hahah fuckin americans are well fuckin dumb haha right mate". claiming media has no impact on people's lives is so dumb i can't even comprehend it. there's literally hundreds of sociological, anthropological, and scientific studies and theories that go into huge detail about media influence on daily life and culture [QUOTE=Key_in_skillee;39847717]they complain about women in action roles because they're just "men with boobs"[/QUOTE] the "men with boobs" thing is an issue because it's lazy pandering by writers. a feminist critique of video games doesn't call for female characters to be as equally shit and 2D as the giant musclebound freaks of gears of war, it calls for female characters that have equal depth and interest to a more rounded and balanced character like, say, nathan drake or someone like that think of it as the difference between going "oh ffs we better put a strong female character in the game. remember musclegrunt_01? change the model and get a new voice actor and call her [URL="https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Samantha+Byrne&rlz=1C1CHFX_enGB519GB519&aq=f&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&authuser=0&ei=6HY6UarZJOmr7Aamg4HoDw&biw=1680&bih=949&sei=6nY6UdzOCea47AawmYCIBg"]samantha[/URL]" and writing a character with some actual realistic personality like faith

[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;39847988]think of it as the difference between going "oh ffs we better put a strong female character in the game. remember musclegrunt_01? change the model and get a new voice actor and call her [URL="https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Samantha+Byrne&rlz=1C1CHFX_enGB519GB519&aq=f&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&authuser=0&ei=6HY6UarZJOmr7Aamg4HoDw&biw=1680&bih=949&sei=6nY6UdzOCea47AawmYCIBg"]samantha[/URL]" and writing a character with some actual realistic personality like faith[/QUOTE] that's because they have to cram in a "strong female" in order to stop rabid feminists from starting shit about how evil and sexist they are. spoiler alert not having a female character in a lead role doesn't make you sexist.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;39846823]You are just overanalyzing things. Of course women are trying to fit a certain standard of beauty to please the eyes of people they are physically attracted to, what the fuck else did you expect from any normal human being ? Men do it too, and guess what ? They didn't set their own standards of beauty, women did. It's almost like it MAKES SENSE, doesn't it ? Members of the opposite sex have a word on what they find attractive in the other gender. And I maintain that it's incredibly egocentric of you to claim that women only try to look good to appeal to men. What if they just want to feel good, because, big surprise, looking good usually makes you feel better about yourself ?[/QUOTE] You are oversimplifying. Accusation of overanalysis is the usual response to any liberal or leftist or activist thought: "This is such a minor issue, why do you think so much about it?", etc. What I am saying depends on the idea that ideals of beauty in society can easily and drastically change. Women have a standard of beauty of men that is different from the muscly ideal that is usually portrayed in many pieces of media nowadays, because the strongmen are usually a product of male desires for strength and power. Guys who are ideal by women's standards are usually made fun of by the media as gay or weak or feminine. To clarify: I am not saying that all women get up in the morning with the aim of pleasing men all time time in their consciousness, but that society has been structured by the few and powerful to fit their views, and the few and powerful in our society has been white men for many years. Through advertising, books, video games, products, stories and laws, society has been shaped in a way that the "ideal" women that is advertised everywhere is purely a product of male desires. It is the average woman's choice whether she wants to give into that or not. Anyway, I can't catch up with the rate this thread is expanding, but remember that oppression trickles down to the very smallest of acts and tropes. While modern society has tried to eliminate the worst parts of sexism, meaning unrestricted demeaning of women as lesser people and restricting them explicitly from certain jobs, and keeping them in the kitchen, modern society has not accounted for micro-offenses that still subtly influence all of us to subconsciously render the white male as default, and everyone else as the other, and to have a negative knee-jerk reaction to anything that tries to expose it, like this video. For further reading on this I recommend reading The Souls of Black Folk (it is about racism, but it does a great job at showing how large offenses and micro offenses take their toll on a person's psyche and self-worth)and The Second Sex (pretty much the best book on why feminism is needed). I remember getting mad at these types of videos and arguing that these activists are "too radical and hysterical" and do not understand that society is already egalitarian, or that they were nitpicking too much at non issues, when worse was going on in the world, like everything that Ron Paul complained about. I was 13. I grew up.

[QUOTE=JustGman;39848097]that's because they have to cram in a "strong female" in order to stop rabid feminists from starting shit about how evil and sexist they are.[/QUOTE] yeh how dare people expect there to be a female character in a game who isn't a ruined damsel in distress or some other kind of tit-based reward. fucking feminazis frothing at the mouth trying to take away your rights man

[QUOTE=Key_in_skillee;39847717]It seems like a big problem with certain feminists like Anita is that they cannot be pleased by anything.[/QUOTE] lmao no im pretty sure they can be pleased by things, i think portal ranks up pretty high for her dont pull things out of your arse please [editline]8th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=JustGman;39848097]that's because they have to cram in a "strong female" in order to stop rabid feminists from starting shit about how evil and sexist they are.[/QUOTE] no one does that and dont say "spoiler alert", act like an adult please :)

[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;39848110]yeh how dare people expect there to be a female character in a game who isn't a ruined damsel in distress or some other kind of tit-based reward. fucking feminazis frothing at the mouth trying to take away your rights man[/QUOTE] has anyone ever considered the fact that the writers just didnt want to have a female lead, or that maybe most women wouldn't want to be portrayed as supermuscle steroid killing machines?

feminists complain there are no good female characters in games shit writers cram shit female characters into games feminists complain there are no good female characters in games shit writers cram shit female characters into games moron on the internet complains it's the fault of feminists that there are shit female characters in games ?????

[QUOTE=yawmwen;39847978]i'm honestly baffled now. the way we perceive the world is impacted by the way we are brought up people are brought up with media such as video games and television shows BUT this media can have no affect on the way we perceive the world. is this some sort of mind game or do you really not grasp logic at all? this is not a logical sequence.[/QUOTE] Sorry I dont let media decide how to perceive life, I really have no idea what you want me to say. [editline]8th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;39848131]feminists complain there are no good female characters in games shit writers cram shit female characters into games feminists complain there are no good female characters in games shit writers cram shit female characters into games moron on the internet complains it's the fault of feminists that there are shit female characters in games ?????[/QUOTE] But there are really good female characters in a lot of games.

[QUOTE=JustGman;39848127]has anyone ever considered the fact that the writers just didnt want to have a female lead[/QUOTE] no one is saying that every game or film or book has to have female characters but if you [I]do[/I] put a female character in a film or game or book they should not be: tits on legs damsel in distress man with boobs [editline]8th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=HoodedSniper;39848138] But there are really good female characters in a lot of games.[/QUOTE] i can think of like... 2?

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;39848138]Sorry I dont let media decide how to perceive life, I really have no idea what you want me to say.[/QUOTE] so then what does decide how you perceive life? what impacts a person's view of society?

[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;39848146]no one is saying that every game or film or book has to have female characters but if you [i]do[/i] put a female character in a film or game or book they should not be: tits on legs damsel on distress man with boobs[/QUOTE] but when they're forced into a position where they HAVE to put a female character in or risk PR disaster odds are they probably aren't going to put a lot of effort into it so they can actually work on the game they intended to make in the first place.

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;39848138]Sorry I dont let media decide how to perceive life, I really have no idea what you want me to say.[/QUOTE] [B]YOU[/b] don't (you probably do anyways lol) but lots of people [B]DO[/b] how is this so hard to grasp [editline]8th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=JustGman;39848162]but when they're forced into a position where they HAVE to put a female character in or risk PR disaster odds are they probably aren't going to put a lot of effort into it so they can actually work on the game they intended to make in the first place.[/QUOTE] you make it sound like the artists and game designers and coders have to sit around for a day at the expense of making a game in order to put their heads together and do the incredibly impossible task of writing a decent female character 1. it isn't and shouldn't be that hard 2. they pay people to do that job

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;39846886]Why do you even complain about this so much ? There are so many more urgent things to discuss like, I dunno, the culture or rape, wife beatings, lower wages for women, sexism in politics, this sort of actual issues ? Why do you even care about a bunch of pixels ? [/QUOTE] you can do both pretty easily stop saying shit no-one cares about (srsly no-one wants to hear your lecture on what we should care about) and just talk about the video tia [QUOTE=Ganerumo;39846886]If the original feminists even back from the 50's looked at you for even a second, they would laugh so hard they would shatter the ground with their own hilarity.[/QUOTE] "the original feminists even back from the 50's" who

fine snip

[QUOTE=yawmwen;39847814]what people are genuinely asking for is women characters that are well developed and aren't only female for the sake of sex appeal. the fact of the matter is that women characters in movies and video games are generally underdeveloped. even the "badass" women in games and movies are done for sex appeal generally. we want more characters that are written with real motivations that aren't one dimensional or over the top for the sake of humor. let's take the bechdel test for example. there are only 3 criteria to pass the bechdel test: 1: there must be two named women in the movie 2: those women must talk to each other 3: they must talk to each other about something other than a man. [url]http://bechdeltest.com/[/url] very few movies actually pass this test. this is especially disappointing with big name movies that often don't even have two named women in them.[/QUOTE] i mentioned the bechdel test before but really, it isn't an absolute test for sexism and not really that good of test at all. just like i wouldn't expect them to shoehorn a few male characters into a chick flick just cos, it's hardly sexist to not include more women in an action film. i said before the idea that it "perpetuates sexism" is a rubbish excuse because it doesn't change anyone and things that don't change the issue aren't relevant, focus on bad portrayals which actually do give a bad image of women. skillee touches on the real issue here, most people (anita included) have trouble figuring out what a good representation of women is. if you've ever been to tvtropes you'll see there's a trope for everything and no character has just one trope to them, yet anita's series is about blocking these characters into tropes, cutting everything else off and wondering why they're so bad after she's done butchering them. she doesn't really analyse the characters, she just categorises them, it's flawed at its core. [QUOTE=person11;39848104]You are oversimplifying. Accusation of overanalysis is the usual response to any liberal or leftist or activist thought: "This is such a minor issue, why do you think so much about it?", etc. I am not saying that all women get up in the morning with the aim of pleasing men all time time in their consciousness, but that society has been structured by the few and powerful to fit their views, and the few and powerful in our society has been white men for many years. Through advertising, books, video games, products, stories and laws, society has been shaped in a way that the "idea" women that is advertised everywhere is purely male desires. It is the average woman's choice whether she wants to give into that or not. Anyway, I can't catch up with the rate this thread is expanding, but remember that oppression trickles down to the very smallest of acts and tropes. While modern society has tried to eliminate the worst parts of sexism, meaning unrestricted demeaning of women as lesser people and restricting them explicitly from certain jobs, and keeping them in the kitchen, modern society has not accounted for micro-offenses that still subtly influence all of us to subconsciously render the white male as default, and everyone else as the other, and to have a negative knee-jerk reaction to anything that tries to expose it, like this video. For further reading on this I recommend reading The Souls of Black Folk (it is about racism, but it does a great job at showing how large offenses and micro offenses take their toll on a person's psyche and self-worth)and The Second Sex (pretty much the best book on why feminism is needed). I remember getting mad at these types of videos and arguing that these activists are "too radical and hysterical" and do not understand that society is already egalitarian, or that they were nitpicking too much at non issues, when worse was going on in the world, like everything that Ron Paul complained about. I was 13. I grew up.[/QUOTE] gettin into some real patriarchy bullshit here. the things that influence society, the fashions and common views, sure as fuck ain't created by the few and powerful and claiming that kind of shit completely ignores any root causes for why this shit occurs. when you can't even analyse why shit occurs and rely on assumptions that there is some influential force behind it all (illuminati), you're not in any state to argue it.

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;39848138]Sorry I dont let media decide how to perceive life, I really have no idea what you want me to say.[/QUOTE] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subconcious[/url] and there are studies which pretty conclusively say that people who deny the impact of media on their lives are actually more affected because they dont reflect on it and lack awareness psychology, its a thing! [editline]8th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Devodiere;39848203] gettin into some real patriarchy bullshit here. the things that influence society, the fashions and common views, sure as fuck ain't created by the few and powerful and claiming that kind of shit completely ignores any root causes for why this shit occurs. when you can't even analyse why shit occurs and rely on assumptions that there is some influential force behind it all (illuminati), you're not in any state to argue it.[/QUOTE] lol he didnt say anything like that wheres that dorothy video with the strawman [editline]8th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=geogzm;39848196]The three thoughts I had when watching this video created by a 'feminist': 1. Why did I click on this 2. I would enjoy a blowjob from her 3. I'm thinking about blowjobs and watching a feminist video[/QUOTE] thats dope dude

[QUOTE=thisispain;39848185]"the original feminists even back from the 50's" who[/QUOTE] Actually 1950's is too late. You can find feminists even all the way back to the 19th century. [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Sand]Like that one[/url]

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;39848259]Actually 1950's is too late. You can find feminists even all the way back to the 19th century. [/QUOTE] woah seriously? no way

[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;39848146]no one is saying that every game or film or book has to have female characters but if you [I]do[/I] put a female character in a film or game or book they should not be: tits on legs damsel in distress man with boobs [editline]8th March 2013[/editline] i can think of like... 2?[/QUOTE] Samus Amy rose(Fucks shit up in Sonic adventure 1) Chell Pretty much all of the night elfs in warcraft(especially the warden) Alyx Tennenbaum in Bioshock(concentration camp survivor, figured out immortality) Plenty in Dota 2 if you are into the lore but this ones sort of a bad example. Cat women in the Arkham games(being dressed the way she is doesnt take away from that) Talia in Arkham city. Roxas in Kingdom Hearts. See, plenty of games have good women characters. [editline]8th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=yawmwen;39848159]so then what does decide how you perceive life? what impacts a person's view of society?[/QUOTE] Mine is impacted on people I meet or talk to.

whats the point of that list exercise? plenty of games have "good women characters"??? define good women characters to me first

[QUOTE=thisispain;39848212]lol he didnt say anything like that wheres that dorothy video with the strawman[/QUOTE] [quote]I am not saying that all women get up in the morning with the aim of pleasing men all time time in their consciousness, but that society has been structured by the few and powerful to fit their views, and the few and powerful in our society has been white men for many years. Through advertising, books, video games, products, stories and laws, society has been shaped in a way that the "idea" women that is advertised everywhere is purely male desires. It is the average woman's choice whether she wants to give into that or not.[/quote] mate can you not read or somethin? that's some outright bullshit that media tells women to be stepford wives and that powerful white men shape it the way they want. there's so much shit flying around that influences people and they can't even influence big media without a shitstorm erupting from the plebs. there's not some source of white male dominance in all media and it's radical feminist bullshit to think so.

[QUOTE=thisispain;39848319]whats the point of that list exercise? plenty of games have "good women characters"??? define good women characters to me first[/QUOTE] I was answering someones question who said he couldnt think of a lot of strong female characters, you should read the thread more carefully.

This fucking thread is like Yugoslavia in the 1990s. Divided by about seven sides and all of them are stupid.

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;39848335]I was answering someones question who said he couldnt think of a lot of strong female characters, you should read the thread more carefully.[/QUOTE] well it was pointless because you didnt bother to define what you think a strong female character is good job you should read my post more carefully??? god why do you all have to be so condescending and start lecturing people argue the point idgaf about anything else you have to say

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;39848299]Samus[/QUOTE] original reveal is the epitome of "women as reward" [quote]Amy rose(Fucks shit up in Sonic adventure 1)[/quote] began life as a damsel in distress [quote]Chell[/quote] is an avatar, not a character [quote]Pretty much all of the night elfs in warcraft(especially the warden)[/quote] no idea [quote]Alyx[/quote] decent example [quote]Tennenbaum in Bioshock(concentration camp survivor, figured out immortality)[/quote] no idea [quote]Plenty in Dota 2 if you are into the lore but this ones sort of a bad example.[/quote] character design ruins this one. no idea about the lore [quote]Cat women in the Arkham games(being dressed the way she is doesnt take away from that)[/quote] watched my brother play this game for a few hours and all she did was make constant references to being a big bad girl and beating up guys and breaking nails and how people should be embarrassed they got beaten up by a girl [quote]Talia in Arkham city.[/quote] no idea but considering how bad all the other women are and how awful the female character design in those games is it wouldn't surprise me if talia sucked too [quote]Roxas in Kingdom Hearts.[/quote] no idea [quote]See, plenty of games have good women characters.[/quote] a couple

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;39848299] Cat women in the Arkham games(being dressed the way she is doesnt take away from that)[/QUOTE] It shows you a problem with the industry though, also list all the good male characters, I'm sure it'll be thousands times longer