Tropes vs Women in Video Games - Damsel in Distress - General

[QUOTE=LeonS;39852249]he's called "instig8tive journalism" but ok whatever u say[/QUOTE] yeah i saw that thanks

Saving women is sexist? Punching women is sexist? Fucking jeez, let's just remove women from games completely! Oh wait, that won't please her. Fuck, what do we do?

[QUOTE=Jackald;39852264]Y'know, apart from quotes from Anita Sarkeesian.[/QUOTE] quotes which dont really have much to do with sex-positive or sex-negative feminism and which certainly do not back up YOUR claims that she ignore the existence of sex-positive feminism and espouses the views of sex-negative feminism but that doesnt matter to the investig8ive journalism guy because hes making a narrative and extrapolating information from quotes [editline]9th March 2013[/editline] if you said "she hates the slutwalk" or "she doesnt like skimpy women in games" then yeah youre are correct, but you went further than that [editline]9th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Jackald;39852293]Godammit, i shouldn't argue when I haven't had any sleep, i just come across as a raving lunatic...[/QUOTE] dont take it so seriously, you come off just fine lol

you know, i first discovered feminist frequency when just browsing youtube one day, first off was a video where she dissected the sexism in something that wasn't really all that sexist i went "wow this chick isn't very smart, good thing she only has about 10,000 views max on all of her videos and i'll never have to hear about this again" then /v/ had to go full buttmad on her kickstarter thanks for that /v/

[QUOTE=Jellyman;39852290]Saving women is sexist? Punching women is sexist? Fucking jeez, let's just remove women from games completely! Oh wait, that won't please her. Fuck, what do we do?[/QUOTE] did you even think at all before posting this

[QUOTE=Simplemac3;39852321]you know, i first discovered feminist frequency when just browsing youtube one day, first off was a video where she dissected the sexism in something that wasn't really all that sexist i went "wow this chick isn't very smart, good thing she only has about 10,000 views max on all of her videos and i'll never have to hear about this again" then /v/ had to go full buttmad on her kickstarter thanks for that /v/[/QUOTE] yeah thanks /v/ now Simplemac3 has to come dangerously close to something that could challenge his simplistic and protected worldview

[QUOTE=BrainDeath;39852356]yeah thanks /v/ now Simplemac3 has to come dangerously close to something that could challenge his simplistic and protected worldview[/QUOTE] why are you being so hostile i didn't say anything other than "i think she isn't that bright" this whole thing pisses me off because i feel like she's an absolutely shitty person to use as a figurehead for the movement

[QUOTE=Simplemac3;39852321]you know, i first discovered feminist frequency when just browsing youtube one day, first off was a video where she dissected the sexism in something that wasn't really all that sexist i went "wow this chick isn't very smart, good thing she only has about 10,000 views max on all of her videos and i'll never have to hear about this again" then /v/ had to go full buttmad on her kickstarter thanks for that /v/[/QUOTE] I'm so sorry you had to hear about her again that must be real tough ):

[QUOTE=MisterMooth;39852415]I'm so sorry you had to hear about her again that must be real tough ):[/QUOTE] it is thank you for your support

[QUOTE=MisterMooth;39852348]did you even think at all before posting this[/QUOTE] Please tell me what would please this woman.

[QUOTE=Jellyman;39852748]Please tell me what would please this woman.[/QUOTE] maybe you should watch the video (hint: it's about portraying women better)

[QUOTE=Jojje;39844461]yea i think stories are getting stale and whatnot with damsels being used all over the place and i’d be all for a guy having to be rescued by a chick at some point that would be a refreshing change. zelda armoring up and taking up a sword? yes please, that would be ballin as hell. my eyebrow raises a bit to how sarkeesian refers to some games as ‘damsel games’ that are being re-released on new platforms, as if it’s the only thing of note about them. they do include the trope, but i dunno. she could’ve worded it a bit better. ehh, not a big deal. this is a trend that needs to break, true enough. that said, using the trope isn't wrong in itself, but fiction is being oversaturated with it. lets have some variety[/QUOTE] There have actually been multiple games where a female protagonist rescues a male character FYI. Like Beyond Good and Evil, Jade/Shauni rescues both the male companions that help you in the game multiple times, and ofcourse also saves the entire world after that. And really, the only reason this damsel trope is being used so much is because some companies and game developers just want to make games without having to think of a complex plot, it has nothing to do with gender equality, it's just laziness.

i don't think that ganondorf always captures zelda after she turns back into her "generic girly form" because she suddenly becomes weaker, isn't it because she reveals her identity?

[QUOTE=Y'all.;39853314]i don't think that ganondorf always captures zelda after she turns back into her "generic girly form" because she suddenly becomes weaker, isn't it because she reveals her identity?[/QUOTE] Yes, it is. Although you can argue that it's pretty silly that Ganondorf suddenly magically knows where she is just because she changes out of her ninja outfit and into a dress. And also that it's pretty silly that he didn't try to kill/capture the fucking ninja running around helping his enemy. [QUOTE=Jellyman;39852290]Saving women is sexist? Punching women is sexist? Fucking jeez, let's just remove women from games completely! Oh wait, that won't please her. Fuck, what do we do?[/QUOTE] She basically wants more female protagonists. That's it, really. I can kind of see where she's coming from, because there really are way, way, way more games with male protagonists than with female ones, but at the same time I disagree completely, because quite frankly with the vast majority of the games she have criticized for having male protagonists, the protagonist can barely even really be considered a character. Mario especially is just a dumb thing to criticize over this, Mario is litterally just a someone who jumps on things, he has no character, he is incapable of speech, he litterally might as well be a fucking robot, the real main character in Mario games is the world itself.

[QUOTE=elowin;39853299]There have actually been multiple games where a female protagonist rescues a male character FYI. Like Beyond Good and Evil, Jade/Shauni rescues both the companions you have in the game multiple times, and ofcourse also saves the entire world after that.[/QUOTE] nobody gives a shit if the odd game does something different, this is about tropes and the damsel trope is clearly a trope there's no women rescuing men trope [quote]And really, the only reason this damsel trope is being used so much is because some companies and game developers just want to make games without having to think of some complex plot, it has nothing to do with gender equality, it's just laziness.[/quote] whether or not they do it on purpose is completely irrelevant - it's still a negative portrayal of women if anything you're only highlighting how much of a problem this is, if everyone's go-to story is about women being a weak, sexualised prize

I don't see why anyone can be suprised at how women are portrayed in video games when the industry is still pretty much male dominated

[QUOTE=MisterMooth;39853322] whether or not they do it on purpose is completely irrelevant - it's still a negative portrayal of women if anything you're only highlighting how much of a problem this is, if everyone's go-to story is about women being a weak, sexualised prize[/QUOTE] How is it everyone's go to story though? I can barely think of any games doing this in recent times beyond the obvious Mario and Zelda games, who do it purely out of tradition, and atleast on the Zelda side of it, it's actually been toned down to a huge degree in recent years. The majority of games nowadays that don't really have a plot generally just put the focus on the villain and how much you want to explode him/her/it rather than how much you want to save the princess. Hell even Mario has a lot more focus on Bowser than on Peach nowadays, like look at Super Mario Galaxy and Super Mario Galaxy 2, Peach is barely even in those games, and what little role she has is pretty much just to mail you more 1-up mushrooms rather than being the object you want to rescue, even though she is technically still in need of rescue.

[QUOTE=elowin;39853422]How is it everyone's go to story though? I can barely think of any games doing this in recent times beyond the obvious Mario and Zelda games, who do it purely out of tradition, and atleast on the Zelda side of it, it's actually been toned down to a huge degree in recent years. The majority of games nowadays that don't really have a plot generally just put the focus on the villain and how much you want to explode him/her/it rather than how much you want to save the princess. Hell even Mario has a lot more focus on Bowser than on Peach nowadays, like look at Super Mario Galaxy and Super Mario Galaxy 2, Peach is barely even in those games, and what little role she has is pretty much just to mail you more 1-up mushrooms rather than being the object you want to rescue, even though she is technically still in need of rescue.[/QUOTE] lol you just said it was it was a story developers use when they're lazy If that's all people can think of when they can't be bothered trying, then yes it's a go-to story You're going against your own point by saying it isn't. If it's NOT a go-to story, then explain why so many people use it And lots of games use it. I thought the video made that clear. You even seem to agree here: [QUOTE=elowin;39853299]And really, the only reason this [B]damsel trope is being used so much[/B] is because some companies and game developers just want to make games without having to think of a complex plot, it has nothing to do with gender equality, it's just laziness.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=person11;39852086]It is not self righteous so much as taking all of this from an academic perspective, not based on principles by people who's lives you can only imagine. Enforcement of moral codes and creation and enforcement of ideals are done by multiple people who are not explicitly trying to do so. The rules were not created in a day, but were created from a society that is dominated by few over many years. It's a gradual trend. So when you say: "the influence they exert is not designed to enforce their views" 1. How do you know? and 2. It does, whether they mean it to or not. "why should they put all their money into forcing women to be slutty when they could just make cash?" They make cash off of women's sexuality, precisely by forcing them to focus of sex or be unsuccessful in the entertainment industry. Do you honestly think that the ideal woman is not used in every advertising campaign in order to extract massive profit from women with terrible self esteem? Did you know the average woman's self esteem peaks at 9 years of age? And that women perform 66% of the world’s work, but receive only 11% of the world’s income, and own only 1% of the world’s land (this is a worldwide statistic, but I bet the USA does not do much better than this)? Even if you look at only US statistics, women are far behind men in almost everything, and it is not due to any kind of inferiority. I know it can be hard to see the bigger picture sometimes, but, despite the fact we have gotten better, and despite the fact that we are getting better every day, we still live in a patriarchal society that implicitly perpetuates inequality in various ways. I don't want to tire myself listing all the ways considering how many statistics there are to prove it. In the area of video games, it is the same thing as all media: games about strong women are seen as exceptions that are not as likely to be played by guys, unless they have few clothes on. It is the same thing as the concept of a film with all white males being "normal", but a film about a woman being a "chick flick" or a movie with more black people being a "black movie". Also, Fox news is a distraction that people use to deflect criticism. Even if someone is not as bad as an old guy from fox news when making a game with the damsel trope, or making a movie with no minorities in it, etc, they should be called out for it.[/QUOTE] you really do believe in this patriarchy bullshit, don't you? well at least i got a response rather than "you're stupid, grow up" like every other one of your posts. responding to every one of your points would be long and arduous so i'll cut to the core of it. i'm more than aware of how society is shaped and despite most of your statistics being from completely different societies, there are obvious [url=http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-04/female-graduate-pay-gap-doubles/4452348]real issues[/url] other than petty shit in video games, the cause of these issues is where we differ. your claim is that white males are the ones shaping it whether intentionally or unintentionally, according to their views, that they are the reason for all of this misogyny whether directly or indirectly, which is complete garbage. the self esteem issue is a complex one with many root causes through media and the beauty industry which is pretty diverse, but you know it's really the fault of white males and the women they brainwashed. there are anthropological and biological reasons ranging from differences in [url=http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/01/050121100142.htm]brain structure[/url] to maternal bonding to women just not being physical as strong, but none of that matters because the axiom of equality doesn't take into account any actual differences.if you want to get specific there's even enough sexism within the african american community that they formed their own [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_feminism]black feminism[/url], but it doesn't really matter if they're white or not, it's still all males oppressing women. even when no-one influences anything one way or the other and it's just the inertia of a society barely out of worse days, it's still white men perpetuating it because they're not doing enough to stamp out sexism and bring things to the horribly ambiguous equal that you define. white people are the majority in western countries and with men obviously influencing a lot, it makes a nice target to blame all your issues on, but it's bullshit. gender inequality is a complex issue, particularly in how you define equality, and pushing the blame on any one person or group for something in the entirety of society is simplistic crap. there are actual issues that you won't make go away by policing everyone who might perpetuate something you disagree with. if you're really interested in fixing something, learn why it actually occurs and how it is possible to change it rather than vilification and using the utter stupidity of the patriarchy concept.

[QUOTE=MisterMooth;39853431]lol you just said it was it was a story developers use when they're lazy If that's all people can think of when they can't be bothered trying, then yes it's a go-to story You're going against your own point by saying it isn't. If it's NOT a go-to story, then explain why so many people use it And lots of games use it. I thought the video made that clear. You even seem to agree here:[/QUOTE] The point of my second post is that it's not even used anywhere near as much as this video implies, atleast, not anymore. It was pretty much the go to plot back in the early days of gaming, because like a lot of people have said here earlier, there was simply not enough space to make more complicated plots, atleast not without sacrificing gameplay significantly. And since then, a lot of the old franchises from that era still resort to that plot, mainly out of a feeling of obligation towards the series, because quite frankly it's a bit of a tradition in most of those series, most notably Mario, but in newer IPs it's almost never used at all. Basically what i'm saying is that I only think it's the go to story for the franchises in which such a story is tradition, in newer games such plots are rare as fuck and generally downplayed the few times they do happen.

[QUOTE=MisterMooth;39853322]nobody gives a shit if the odd game does something different, this is about tropes and the damsel trope is clearly a trope there's no women rescuing men trope[/QUOTE] jesus christ mooth, i knew you were a dumbass for rating bombing everything but that's probably preferable to your actual arguments. the way anita makes the connection between sexism and this trope is that the one being rescued is turned into an object, something without their own reasoning and agency. while this isn't true for half of the examples any more than finding someone attractive turns them into an object, the core of it holds true even if the gender roles are reversed and if given the same situation, it's the exact same thing. but no-one cares about that, can't be sexist towards men, it doesn't perpetuate something we already think so it doesn't matter. that's probably the biggest issue anita has, both you and her don't understand what a trope is and how to apply it. it's shit logic to connect the two here and no doubt she'll do it again.

[QUOTE=Devodiere;39853539]the way anita makes the connection between sexism and this trope is that the one being rescued is turned into an object, something without their own reasoning and agency. while this isn't true for half of the examples any more than finding someone attractive turns them into an object, the core of it holds true even if the gender roles are reversed and if given the same situation, it's the exact same thing. but no-one cares about that, can't be sexist towards men, it doesn't perpetuate something we already think so it doesn't matter.[/QUOTE] then why does it happen almost exclusively to women and how is making a woman a prize NOT turning them into an object [quote]jesus christ mooth, i knew you were a dumbass for rating bombing everything but that's probably preferable to your actual arguments.[/quote] I remember when you were nice

[QUOTE=MisterMooth;39853610]then why does it happen almost exclusively to women and how is making a woman a prize NOT turning them into an object[/quote] are we taking into account any time a male character is imprisoned or just full trope reversals? biggest reason why it's used though is male disposability and the same not being true for women; it's expected that men go to war and die but when Jessica Lynch is captured, bring out the big guns and call her a heroine. a prize? in half the zelda games you save her so the BBEG doesn't end the world and the other half are just from chivalry with your prize being a kiss. think of the trope like a [url=http://i.imgur.com/2xhYtUi.jpg]venn diagram[/url] with A being things that are sexist and B being things that fall under the trope. obviously there's overlap, but the two aren't one and the same and there's plenty of room inside the trope for non-objectification. [quote]I remember when you were nice[/QUOTE] i was never nice, i just wasn't attacking you at that particular time. also metal is awful and you have poor taste in avatars.

[QUOTE=Devodiere;39853745]i was never nice, i just wasn't attacking you at that particular time. also metal is awful and you have poor taste in avatars.[/QUOTE] that's just mean.

There's a break in the crossfire, I reccomend we all just [B]STOP.[/B]

[QUOTE=Keyblockor;39854065]There's a break in the crossfire, I reccomend we all just [B]STOP.[/B][/QUOTE] That is pretty damn optimistic.

What I don't get is : Why did she need 150000 dollars to churn out this video ? It has the exact same quality as the ones already on her channel , and she basically told me things I already know as a gaming enthusiast, the demographic these videos are supposed to be aimed at.

[QUOTE=Rex McCoolguy;39854481]What I don't get is : Why did she need 150000 dollars to churn out this video ? It has the exact same quality as the ones already on her channel , and she basically told me things I already know as a gaming enthusiast, the demographic these videos are supposed to be aimed at.[/QUOTE] She originally asked for $6000 to make 5 videos. But due to all the backlash she received, she got $158,922 and is now making 12 videos instead of the original 5 to adjust for the extreme influx of money compared to the original goal.

[QUOTE=Devodiere;39853745] also metal is awful and you have poor taste in avatars.[/QUOTE] Isn't that morrissey...?

[QUOTE=Primigenes;39854535]She didn't ask for 150,000 How much times does this need to be said?[/QUOTE] Its not so much she didnt ask for it, its that people are angry because no one knows how you can spend $150,000 on 12 part series. We never get to see the money, and this isnt even just an issue with Anita, its a problem with kickstarter as a whole. Whats to stop her from spend lets say only $12,000 in total for this whole series. So where does all the other money go? Thats why people are mad about it.