Jonathan Pie - President Trump - General

"It's time to stop crying over spilled fucking brexit."

[QUOTE=NoOneKnowsMe;51350549]I kinda agree with some points of this video, especially with the Clinton/Sanders part. However, I do not agree with his stance that just discussing and educating Trump supporters is so easy. How do you discuss with someone who - Ignores correct facts - Uses wrong information - Is active in communities, where wrong information is commonly shared, and no dissent is allowed (e.g. The_Donald on Reddit, seriously, it's just a safe space - look at the rules if you haven't yet) - Talks to you via the internet, which is the case for this forum I think the only way the democrats would have had a chance against Trump if they had a candidate who was able to appeal on the same emotional level. "I'm with her" just doesn't have the same ring to it like "Make America Great Again". Sanders would have had a way easier time, since he was able to do both - use of emotions and use of scientific facts as a basis for his arguments. Trump can't do the latter.[/QUOTE] There's ways and in no way is it belittling someone. You debate and there's a serious lack of that in all discussions I've seen here. There's a serious need for a standard of debating. If you say something is right then explain why, weigh it. The world isn't black and white and people on both sides made it so. With a democratic president it gave democrats the louder voice of what most people heard whether they liked it or not.

Amazing video; the commentary and points he brings up need to be shouted from the rooftops so it gets ingrained in people's heads.

No. I don't think that any other way of looking at the world is unacceptable, that any other way of seeing things is. But there's a distance I'll go, I just simply am not capable of having a rational discussion with somebody as far right as the kinds of Trump supporters that I come across, same with people so far left that they think I'm a bad person for being a straight cis white male. I don't really think that's a flaw. I get that I'm missing the point. But (here in the UK the alleged cause for Trump is the same as Brexit) I don't think I was ever unwilling to exit my little bubble and talk to the opposing side and have a discussion like people are accusing me of. I just can't have a discussion with somebody that is frothing at the mouth with hate for anyone but themselves. On a vague level I agree with his point, but I really do think that way of seeing things does ignore the people who tried to have a rational discussion and were shot down, and the people on Trump's side who refused to have a discussion. I just feel like this argument is demonising me, and tbh I did nothing wrong whatsoever. I am engaging, I'm not throwing insults, I'm not calling people who disagree with me racist and sexist and evil (though I've been accused of this just for criticising the right), and it kind of hurts that now liberal pundits are accusing me of doing that.

[QUOTE=Kljunas;51349861]I don't think his point is that bigots had hurt feelings, but that their views were unchallenged since "the left" just point and laugh from their moral high ground instead of trying to educate them.[/QUOTE] [I]"you can bring a horse to water, but you cant make it drink"[/I] is exactly what the cultural war was. the Right is so imbedded with their views that it's no use to sit there and bring up points (trust me, im the only lefty in the entire family and 9/10 times they just use some dumb policy a dem pushed over the 100 other policies the repubs pushed as a scapegoat). My father knows im bisexual and supports me, but constantly mocks and hates the LGBT movement for pushing for rights. Ive explained plenty of times why its wrong to deny people rights over their personal biology but its drowned out by his own beliefs. We have climate deniers in the house right now that had a fucking professor with years of study showing climate change, but they still stick to their guns thinking they know more as a politician.

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;51349779]He's half right. The only thing I really don't agree with this whole generalizing "The left are responsible for Trump" rhetoric considering how insulting it actually is to the left, and the right with its implications. Here are the arguments I've heard that are total bullshit. 1. The left should've elected bernie! [I]"The left" did vote for bernie, and it was discovered to be rigged by the DNC.[/I] 2. The left should've protested the rigged DNC! [I]No one actually knew that the DNC was rigged. Everything that was said about the DNC was a conspiracy theory at the time, and it was dumb to believe it. It wasn't until it was too late before we realised that it was indeed rigged.[/I] 3. The left caused people to vote Trump because of how much hate the right is getting! [I]Really? Do you genuinely think that the right consists of children who vote only because the left wasn't accepting of radical views about Minorities, Welfare, LGBT folk, and Climate change? Do you think it's because we started shitposting on internet forums, making fun of anyone who thought the ultimate solution to our terrorist problem is to ban muslims from entering the country? Do you think that the majority of people who voted Trump were like the high school bully victim, where liberal bullies were making fun of his shitty views and interests, and when he was older he took vengeance and said "I'LL SHOW THEM. I'M VOTING FOR TRUMP. #MAGA"? Do you really think that the right is so shallow, that they voted for an absolute bigot with absolute garbage policies because they had their feelings hurt?[/I] Trump won because he told everyone want they wanted to hear. He spoonfed everyone fears that don't exist, and promised that he would give solutions to end those fears. Trump won because he was running against an absolutely unelectable candidate. Anyone who says that the left are responsible for Trump are either looking for someone to blame or are trying to make themselves feel like a victim even more.[/QUOTE] one argument I will not abide is "you should have been nicer to me, now I'm a nazi :(" please nobody ever fall for ridiculous bullshit like that. the democrats lost this election because they shat on the best candidate and railroaded a career politician at a time when people had extremely low tolerance for establishment politics

Now I know what my dad was talking about before we went to vote. Pretty much what he said was something my father said. He didn't want to vote for Trump, but compared to Hillary he had no real option iho(in his opinion). It sucks, we're both shocked, but nothing we can do now but wait and see what moves Trump makes and discuss this with the left without flinging poo like what's going on in CA, PA, and NYC.

[QUOTE=Turnips5;51356672]one argument I will not abide is "you should have been nicer to me, now I'm a nazi :(" please nobody ever fall for ridiculous bullshit like that. the democrats lost this election because they shat on the best candidate and railroaded a career politician at a time when people had extremely low tolerance for establishment politics[/QUOTE] I don't understand how the right can parody the left by saying they are just perpetually offended and need safe spaces, when something I hear again and again is how so many Trump voters voted him because they were sad about being called racist/sexist/bigoted/whatever.

[QUOTE=Samiam22;51357074]I don't understand how the right can parody the left by saying they are just perpetually offended and need safe spaces, when something I hear again and again is how so many Trump voters voted him because they were sad about being called racist/sexist/bigoted/whatever.[/QUOTE] Like was said earlier, /r/the_donald is literally a safe space. Straight up there's a rule against having any dissenting opinions, if you try to have a conversation you're banned.

[QUOTE=Duck M.;51350062]We've tried to educate them. We've tried, and tried, and tried, and tried. [/QUOTE] don't give up don't stop trying keep trying because the moment you stop trying is the moment you've decided they'll never be convinced. some people can't be convinced by everything that something they believe in is wrong by 1 person or in 1 moment, it might take a while. and giving up if you can't convince them in the moment you are 100% right isn't good, it doesn't take a few minutes to change your mindset about things, for some people it takes much longer. don't give up (and hurl insults at them for being 'stupid' or whatever), give them time. and ontop of that, if all of us just start hurling insults and ban dissenting opinions, don't we suffer the same plight? we'll never challenge our own opinions, and soon in the future our opinions and culture now might be radically different, but if we just hurl insults, we'll never even take it in and we'll become what we hate so much [editline]12th November 2016[/editline] i mean, i get why he's generalising against the all of the left when he shouldn't be, because the people who fit the generalisation he made, they're the loudest and most impactful on everyone else.

[QUOTE=Turnips5;51356672]one argument I will not abide is "you should have been nicer to me, now I'm a nazi :(" please nobody ever fall for ridiculous bullshit like that. the democrats lost this election because they shat on the best candidate and railroaded a career politician at a time when people had extremely low tolerance for establishment politics[/QUOTE] You people never learn, do you? You do realize it's completely ludicrous to claim that Trump supporters are all bigot racist misogynists considering about half of the country's population support him? With that in mind, how do you think those non-bigoted supporters reacted when democrats made blanket statements about them being nazis, or when Hillary called them a "basket of deplorables"? You think that alleviated their concerns about things such as employment, which is why the rust belt went red to begin with? No, it just showed them that democrats saw no interest in hearing their side of the story and were ready to lump them all in the same bag as the KKK and other wackos. Way to completely miss the point, really.

Saw this on Facebook with the words "This is who to blame for trump. They can't admit what they think, they're not allowed to" on the video.

[QUOTE=Turnips5;51356672][B]one argument I will not abide is "you should have been nicer to me, now I'm a nazi :("[/B] please nobody ever fall for ridiculous bullshit like that. the democrats lost this election because they shat on the best candidate and railroaded a career politician at a time when people had extremely low tolerance for establishment politics[/QUOTE] Are Trump supporters supposed to be the Nazis in this analogy? Is voting for Trump the same as voting for Hitler? Regardless, that isn't what he is claiming. He is saying that there are reasonable people who have right leaning tendencies who were pushed to vote Trump because they were continuously insulted by the other side.

The working class of the US has now felt ignored and thrown to the wayside for about 3-4 administrations. Obama said this in 2008, Bernie Sanders was fucking saying it this week. [Quote=Obama in 2008]"You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania," Obama said, "and, like, a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate, and they have not. And it's not surprising then they get bitter. They cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." It's the latter part that we remember eight years later — the clinging to guns and religion and hate — but it is the first part that was important: the part about lost jobs and neglect by two presidential administrations.[/quote] [quote=Bernie Sanders]Donald Trump tapped into the anger of a declining middle class that is sick and tired of establishment economics, establishment politics and the establishment media. People are tired of working longer hours for lower wages, of seeing decent paying jobs go to China and other low-wage countries, of billionaires not paying any federal income taxes and of not being able to afford a college education for their kids - all while the very rich become much richer. To the degree that Mr. Trump is serious about pursuing policies that improve the lives of working families in this country, I and other progressives are prepared to work with him. To the degree that he pursues racist, sexist, xenophobic and anti-environment policies, we will vigorously oppose him.[/quote] [quote=Bernie Sanders]We cannot be a party which on one hand says we're in favor of working people, we're in favor of the needs of young people but we don't quite have the courage to take on Wall Street and the billionaire class. People do not believe that. The Democratic Party has got to decide which side it's on.[/quote] That's what won the election for Trump, he tapped into the anger and frustration many of the middle and working class have for the establishment and won. Much like Bernie did against Clinton (Bernie took the Rust Belt in the primary). Clinton to those people represents the exact same shit they've been ignored by for the past 30 years. They got fed up, and Trump used it to his advantage. Combine that with extreme-partisanship where a candidate calls the other's [I]supporters[/I] deplorables, where people are just berated fornhaving a different world view because they've existed in wildly different situation than you - it's really no wonder Trump won. You don't win people over by insulting them.

[QUOTE=Duck M.;51350062]We've tried to educate them. We've tried, and tried, and tried, and tried. You can see it here on Facepunch. We put up the facts constantly and whenever the Trump supporters hear them they put up a shield of denial if they dont just bow out completely. -snip- [/QUOTE] I really have wanted a chance to tackle this idea, this idea of [I]educating the Trump supporter,[/I] hell, I've even tried to. What the enlightened folks here on Facepunch have done, and what many people have done in trying to educate their barbaric brethren is not [I]education.[/I] Education speaks to the soul. It lifts a person up. It expands the array of their options and gives them avenues of inquiry to explore, more free in this world limited by our senses and the cosmically small time we have to use them. Education [B]does not[/B] say that a person who questions or rejects the lesson is ignorant, stupid, bigoted, racist, or otherwise a knob. It says that the person simply failed to learn, and it is not always their own fault. Education does not judge, but it seems every "educator" here does. Time and time again I have seen people, who I could easily name, try to beat people who express even the barest sentiment of support for Trump around the head with "facts" until "facts" become a cudgel to be wielded in order to suppress dissent, rather than tools meant to shape and guide discourse. I'm going to travel back in time to a much older thread and quote myself. [QUOTE=Crazy Ivan;49371128]I think your reaction more than validates his fears. He agrees with a relatively minor portion of Trump's platform, [B]i.e.[/B] Economic Protectionism. For that simple agreement, you've decided he has a warped sense of reality, and that his beliefs are tantamount to harboring fascist ideals. This is a very real phenomena of "authoritarian leftism." Many people who are otherwise reasonable, or thoughtful, suddenly become spitefully vitriolic and insist on a single public order when someone dares to hold with or support an ideologically impure position. There are a dozen ways I could demonstrate this. I could say, "I agree with the Nazi position of environmental stewardship," and would immediately be mocked because of the associate connection with no critical reflection on what I just espoused. However, more and more people [I]do[/I] actually believe in something like, "The government, on behalf of the people and the good of all society, must create a greener, healthier world for us to inhabit and treat the environment as a responsibility rather than an exploitability." In the same way, there is no way to say in certain company, "I think Donald Trump has a good point," without literally risking your friendship or social status. That is ridiculous and hegemonic. It even defies the old platitude that, "A broken clock can be right twice a day," because of the opposition's insistence that the clock doesn't even have hands. It's not an ill [B]exclusive[/B] to left wing ideologues, but it is one that should not be present at all among people who believe in representation, democracy, and self-expression regardless of political orientation. Embracing that ill as a good, or even as some sort of personal creedo is by-the-numbers adherence to authoritarian idealism.[/QUOTE] It has come to the point, I stress again now that we are here, that the only interest people seem to have in "educating" their more conservative countrymen is in forcing them, by means of shame, by means of fear, or by means of simply being too obstinate to give up, in to submission. At the end of the day, even if you give a man the world's sum of education, he is entitled to retain his beliefs. That is why, for lack of empirical evidence of a soul or a great beyond, we still have God botherers. If there's one case study, one name I will nearly-name, it rhymes with DripSillyGlaze. A person who, for complicated reasons but reasons in-and-of-themselves coherent, believed and still believes that voting for Donald J. Trump was in their best interest. This lead to, and still regularly results in, long and often baffling discourse where people parade every bad, negative, world-ending "fact" about Donald Trump past this poster, while shouting, "why haven't you changed your mind yet." It has lead to people publicly invoking this poster, without good reason or context, as a poster child of the "ignorant, backwards, bigotted, right wing nutjobs." When it's simply an American who held an opinion, would not give it up, and expressed it. Perhaps there could be some meaningful discourse if persons were not afraid of being mocked, ostracized, or "educated" in this way for supporting even one element of the opposition. I for one, favor gun rights. I believe they are an important element of personal liberty, and a firm stopping block that shows the government does not have full say in what can and cannot be bought, owned, purchased or exchanged within reason. I believe there should be a more nuanced, more coherent discussion of what Trans rights are [B]and are not,[/B] rather than an autocratic president forcing people to accept them with shaky executive orders that can be repealed by a single counter-minded presidency. Do these beliefs make me a bigot, a nazi, a literal supporter of the First American Empire lead by our Overlord For Life Donald "Grab 'em by the Pussy" Trump? Apparently so.

[QUOTE=bdd458;51359005]The working class of the US has now felt ignored and thrown to the wayside for about 3-4 administrations. Obama said this in 2008, Bernie Sanders was fucking saying it this week. That's what won the election for Trump, he tapped into the anger and frustration many of the middle and working class have for the establishment and won. Much like Bernie did against Clinton (Bernie took the Rust Belt in the primary). Clinton to those people represents the exact same shit they've been ignored by for the past 30 years. They got fed up, and Trump used it to his advantage. Combine that with extreme-partisanship where a candidate calls the other's [I]supporters[/I] deplorables, where people are just berated fornhaving a different world view because they've existed in wildly different situation than you - it's really no wonder Trump won. You don't win people over by insulting them.[/QUOTE] The thing is that even if he did tap into it, the working class are unlikely to see genuine improvement over their current situation under his presidency if he goes ahead with the policies he vaguely defined during the race. Almost every single economist who spoke about his economic plans pointed out they aren't sustainable, the job market can't just suddenly poof up however many millions of jobs he wants it to as the USA isn't a manufacturing economy any more, etc. They're setting themselves up for another 4 years of utter disappointment because they couldn't see past the obvious flaws in his "policy", creating more resentment for politicians and ~the system~ in the process. Trump was never going to be the answer to their problems. It's a damn shame the DNC handled everything so fucking backwards.

[QUOTE=hexpunK;51359056]The thing is that even if he did tap into it, the working class are unlikely to see genuine improvement over their current situation under his presidency if he goes ahead with the policies he vaguely defined during the race. Almost every single economist who spoke about his economic plans pointed out they aren't sustainable, the job market can't just suddenly poof up however many millions of jobs he wants it to as the USA isn't a manufacturing economy any more, etc. They're setting themselves up for another 4 years of utter disappointment because they couldn't see past the obvious flaws in his "policy", creating more resentment for politicians and ~the system~ in the process. Trump was never going to be the answer to their problems. It's a damn shame the DNC handled everything so fucking backwards.[/QUOTE] That's true but given their situation it's no surprise that they would pick a candidate that acknowledges their problem even if the proposed solution is completely unrealistic over a candidate that flat out ignores them.

Oh trust me, I don't think Trump is going to fix their issues, but he pandered to it which is the point. Calling people who care about having a job, and seeing their entire livelyhoods crumble away, racists and bigots for going to the candadite who said he's going to fix it all isn't going to persuade them of your view.

[QUOTE=_Axel;51359064]That's true but given their situation it's no surprise that they would pick a candidate that acknowledges their problem even if the proposed solution is completely unrealistic over a candidate that flat out ignores them.[/QUOTE] It just makes me concerned for the future of elections in the USA. With more resentment and a totally devastated working and middle class I could see even more populist clowns rising to power. With worse policy proposals than Trump (and his are largely terrible). The voting population could just end up in a feedback loop of "politicians are all scum, but this guy tells it like it is so I'll vote for him, oh (banning x minority|lowering taxes|ruining international relations) didn't work"-repeat.

Honestly after the last election in Poland trump is a slight itch in comparison (even when taking into account the relative lack of relevance of a polish politician and the tremendous power of the POTUS). People really worry way to much, it could have been a lot lot worse Although what this guy's saying is pretty spot on yeah

You guys do need to remember that public arguments and discussions are just that. [B][I]Public[/I].[/B] It is not only the 2 or more people engaged in the discussion,there are also the listeners and readers that are viewing it. The people viewing such could number from ones to millions depending on the platform and they are the people that matter. By opening up a respectful dialogue between both sides, it allows people to be able to freely explore and understand the underlying fundamentals and implications of the beliefs they hold and how they wish to express it. For every Trump supporter you might not be able to convince, by allowing a dialogue and doing your best to respectfully argue your position, you might convince hundreds to millions of people. I can say this from personal experience, there has been many arguments on SH that has either made me change my mind or allow me to take a more nuanced approach on a subject matter and this is what I believe, is one of the most important things from enabling respectful dialogue and not falling to insults and labels. The ability to make a person more informed in the subject matter and allow them to at least approach it differently than their pre-conceived beliefs

I like the message, but he's deflecting the frustrations by assuming the majority of Trump's supporters were this majority educated and politically aware population. This is completely wrong, and in a way makes his argument fall apart. Trump isn't McCain, Trump represents something pretty dark. Yes, a good number of trump supporters are otherwise pretty normal middle class republicans, but that isn't what won him the election. If it was then McCain would have won no problem in 2012. I've grown up and lived around a part of ohio that had about an even split of almost-always-conservatives and almost-always-liberals. It's what you get when you have several affluent universities in one spot juxtaposed with incredibly backwater rural areas that have a healthy appalachian population. The definition of a swing district in a swing state. The majority of the people who supported trump here weren't the people going to university. There are some, especially the private catholic university, but a majority of trump supporters I've had the misfortune of being forced to interact with or forced to work with were not people you could "discuss" with. They were genuinely racist, genuinely xenophobic, genuinely had that "put finger in ears and go lalalalala the moment any scary opinion was heard". There were very, very few trump supporters who genuinely supported trump for reasons that related to any issues or stances where I lived. We are talking people who when you deliver a 2L to them on a pizza run, will say "I ain't no nigger!" when their mother asks the daughter to bring out some cups from the kitchen, and then the whole family just laughs. Yes, this is real and yes it happens. On the more moderate side, we are talking baby boomer small business owners who have awful business sense run entirely on emotion, thinks trump is a business man therefore will save his small business, and had incredibly sexist views of women (they are "lesser" and can't get as much done as man) as well as racist frame of mind. Or another baby boomer who literally gets their news from fox news/tabloids exclusively, who claimed that Obama owns the internet when net neutrality passed. Whenever you try and use reasoning with either of these people they shut down, get flustered and throw you to the side. [B]This is the reality of trumps support base that won him the election. Not people who are walking on the podium open to discussion or debate. Trump won because of ideological reasons, not politically motivated reasons.[/B] Sanders might have won, I agree. The DNC shot themselves in the foot by having Hillary be the candidate, I agree. But I really hate this stance that the only reason trump lost was because hillary was bad. This is a perspective that is spoken by someone who has not actually had to live or be around red districts for any real amount of time. Who doesn't actually have to interact with the Trump voters demographic for the better part of a decade. If sanders was in on the election it wouldn't have been as much of a landslide as we all like to pretend it would have been. There still would have been shocking levels of support, even if he ultimately lost. We're talking losing by maybe 2-4% at most. THAT is what is really scary to me and all of my fellow LGBTQ friends. If this was just about a shitty republican candidate getting elected then it would have been about as bad as if McCain won the election in 2012 - unfortunate but not a big deal. This is about the fact that a VAST majority of Trump's support comes from a very scary part of America we all like to pretend doesn't really exist. Trump won because Obama existed. Obama's presidency was a nightmare come true for the ignorant, racist, xenophobic, uneducated rural backwater population in the US, and Trump used that to his advantage to fan the flames and gain major support. I've been around these people most of my life. They are real, and as the polls show they are a lot more numerous than you think. Trump's victory represents a normalization and acceptance of racism, of xenophobia, of homophobia, of sexism. Trump literally won on a platform of hate, and for people like me that is scary. It would have been scary if Sanders won because that wide support would still have come in for Trump. This isn't about hug boxes or safe spaces, it's about illuminating the fact that we can no longer ignore this side of America existing, and that people who live in these red districts have to live in fear of that normalization. If you think we are protesting because we don't like that Hillary lost you are dead wrong. We are protesting because we worry what someone like Trump will do to america from the inside out, and we worry what someone like Trump represents to the world. Hell I even had a conversation with a phone rep from India about this. The whole world is watching us. These protests aren't about politics, they are about creating a space where racism/sexism/xenophobia/homophobia cannot thrive. I guarantee that you'd not be seeing the level of protesting going on if an equivalent to McCain got elected.

[QUOTE=Crazy Ivan;51359034]I really have wanted a chance to tackle this idea, this idea of [I]educating the Trump supporter,[/I] hell, I've even tried to. What the enlightened folks here on Facepunch have done, and what many people have done in trying to educate their barbaric brethren is not [I]education.[/I] Education speaks to the soul. It lifts a person up. It expands the array of their options and gives them avenues of inquiry to explore, more free in this world limited by our senses and the cosmically small time we have to use them. Education [B]does not[/B] say that a person who questions or rejects the lesson is ignorant, stupid, bigoted, racist, or otherwise a knob. It says that the person simply failed to learn, and it is not always their own fault. Education does not judge, but it seems every "educator" here does. Time and time again I have seen people, who I could easily name, try to beat people who express even the barest sentiment of support for Trump around the head with "facts" until "facts" become a cudgel to be wielded in order to suppress dissent, rather than tools meant to shape and guide discourse. I'm going to travel back in time to a much older thread and quote myself. It has come to the point, I stress again now that we are here, that the only interest people seem to have in "educating" their more conservative countrymen is in forcing them, by means of shame, by means of fear, or by means of simply being too obstinate to give up, in to submission. At the end of the day, even if you give a man the world's sum of education, he is entitled to retain his beliefs. That is why, for lack of empirical evidence of a soul or a great beyond, we still have God botherers. If there's one case study, one name I will nearly-name, it rhymes with DripSillyGlaze. A person who, for complicated reasons but reasons in-and-of-themselves coherent, believed and still believes that voting for Donald J. Trump was in their best interest. This lead to, and still regularly results in, long and often baffling discourse where people parade every bad, negative, world-ending "fact" about Donald Trump past this poster, while shouting, "why haven't you changed your mind yet." It has lead to people publicly invoking this poster, without good reason or context, as a poster child of the "ignorant, backwards, bigotted, right wing nutjobs." When it's simply an American who held an opinion, would not give it up, and expressed it. Perhaps there could be some meaningful discourse if persons were not afraid of being mocked, ostracized, or "educated" in this way for supporting even one element of the opposition. I for one, favor gun rights. I believe they are an important element of personal liberty, and a firm stopping block that shows the government does not have full say in what can and cannot be bought, owned, purchased or exchanged within reason. I believe there should be a more nuanced, more coherent discussion of what Trans rights are [B]and are not,[/B] rather than an autocratic president forcing people to accept them with shaky executive orders that can be repealed by a single counter-minded presidency. Do these beliefs make me a bigot, a nazi, a literal supporter of the First American Empire lead by our Overlord For Life Donald "Grab 'em by the Pussy" Trump? Apparently so.[/QUOTE] Another problem is that people do think of themselves as "educators" rather than thinking that maybe the case isn't that they know everything and the other person knows nothing, and they should try opening themselves to the other party as they expect the other party to open themselves too.

[QUOTE=Duck M.;51350062]We've tried to educate them. We've tried, and tried, and tried, and tried. You can see it here on Facepunch. We put up the facts constantly and whenever the Trump supporters hear them they put up a shield of denial if they dont just bow out completely. There are quite a few particular users here, not to name names, that were actually convinced that they were wrong and [I]voted for Trump anyways.[/I] There's a reason that Trump is the feels before reals candidate, and its because despite the overwhelming hard fact and scientific basis behind issues like the LGBT community, climate change, energy policy, political scandal, law enforcement, minority rights, immigration, you fucking name it, neither Trump nor his supporters can bring a convincing argument to the table. And now the tables have turned and everyone's finger-pointing at the left for being bullies to the silent majority? When Trumps true intentions are flooding through and his policies are starting to form, and people are saying that it isnt their fault and are refusing to take responsibility? You're right, the guy in the video is right, everyone is right when they say that all of Trumps supporters are not bigots, misogynists and homophobes. But they absolutely must take responsibility for whatever bad things happen to those groups that are affected because of what President Trump does and what rhetoric he pushes when he is in office. Outside of just the concrete policies that are being promised to be put into action that will harm us, so many hateful people and attitudes have been legitimized and will be legitimized for years and perhaps even decades to come because of the outcome of this election. I am (reasonably) ok with ignorance. But if you are educated on how his term will legitimately hurt me and my friends and still support Trump because of whatever conceited reason you push, then you are not ignorant, you're stubborn, and I have every right to look down on you for it. And if you are either ignorant, stubborn, or even hateful and do not take responsibility if/when we are hurt, then hopefully you'll reconsider playing the victim and see who the real victims actually are.[/QUOTE] You fuckers never fucking tried. The times that people have tried have lead to a blackman to convince a Grand Fucking Wizard of a southern KKK to disband his particular sect. Through fucking calm conversation and debate. Talk to human beings, as human beings, is not a novel concept. [editline]13th November 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=KorJax;51360249]*MASSIVE ANECDOTE*[/QUOTE] Meanwhile, I was working with people who were getting business and poli-sci degrees voting for Trump. [editline]13th November 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Trebgarta;51359959]What do you guys think about this? [url]http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/02/world/americas/brexit-donald-trump-whites.html[/url] Not only about Trump, but far-right in Europe too.[/QUOTE] Oh hey. White Fragility. Let me grab something real quick. [t]http://oabonny.byethost33.com/johnmhrt11mooersclinton.jpg[/t] [t]http://oabonny.byethost33.com/johmmhroute11-6.jpg[/t] [t]http://www.northcountrypublicradio.org/news/images/DepauvilleHouseX.jpg[/t] [t]http://oabonny.byethost33.com/charliebroute11stlawrencebarnwinter.jpg?i=1[/t] These are just a small sample. This is Route 11 that cuts through New York into Saint Lawrence County, the poorest county in the state. You'll find 'towns' where people cannot escape along this route. You think ghettos are bad, at least you have access to something warm. This place gets below 0 on a regular basis and most of the houses are so run down they have to live camper vans that come nowhere close to keeping heat. In the US, there isn't White Fragility. In the US, rural areas were completely forgotten about for huge urban zones.

If your solution to being called mean names and "getting censored" (hint: you're not) is to elect a fascist bigot, you're a moron. You let feelings get in the way of policies. Good job. [editline]13th November 2016[/editline] At that stage your vote literally means "My feelings matter more than the livelihood and rights of the minorities I'm endangering"

I can't buy the shy tories argument, tens of millions of people were tired of being called bigots by college students on tumblr, so to prove themselves as not-bigots, they placed an actual bigot one of the most powerful seats in the world? It's absurd. And does nobody see the irony of a guy screaming at the top of his lungs that we should engage in calm and orderly discussion?

[QUOTE=Coyoteze;51362647]If your solution to being called mean names and "getting censored" (hint: you're not) is to elect a fascist bigot, you're a moron. You let feelings get in the way of policies. Good job. [editline]13th November 2016[/editline] At that stage your vote literally means "My feelings matter more than the livelihood and rights of the minorities I'm endangering"[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=ArchXeno;51362750]I can't buy the shy tories argument, tens of millions of people were tired of being called bigots by college students on tumblr, so to prove themselves as not-bigots, they placed an actual bigot one of the most powerful seats in the world? It's absurd. And does nobody see the irony of a guy screaming at the top of his lungs that we should engage in calm and orderly discussion?[/QUOTE] You guys do realize that I already made a counterpoint to that at the top of the page?

Liberals are strangely unliberating lately. Being called names is something I'd expect from the right, not the supposed progressives. Of course people will be upset when you force your morals upon them. Yes, conservatives have always been "bad" but that doesn't mean their opposition should be bad too. The whole point of left is to be opposite of right, not a different flavor of it. All the morons who love to call people racist/sexist/homophobic are seriously ruining progress.

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;51349779]2. The left should've protested the rigged DNC! [I]No one actually knew that the DNC was rigged. Everything that was said about the DNC was a conspiracy theory at the time, and it was dumb to believe it. It wasn't until it was too late before we realised that it was indeed rigged.[/I][/QUOTE] Bullshit. The superdelegate stuff the Democratic party has is very obviously rigged, and I distinctly remember people on Facepunch complaining about it, myself included.

[QUOTE=rndgenerator;51363559]Liberals are strangely unliberating lately. Being called names is something I'd expect from the right, not the supposed progressives. Of course people will be upset when you force your morals upon them. Yes, conservatives have always been "bad" but that doesn't mean their opposition should be bad too. The whole point of left is to be opposite of right, not a different flavor of it. All the morons who love to call people racist/sexist/homophobic are seriously ruining progress.[/QUOTE] which means bigotry is a behavioral trait that transcends ideology or what not. A viscous leftist idiot is the same as a viscous rightist idiot.