[QUOTE=RB33;52455313]With oppressive systems of government/economy gone. Humans are free to care and support each other. And no longer required to resort to selfish, divisive and exploitative behaviour.
We will have everything to gain from cooperating, but now capitalism instead forces us to compete and is holding us back as humanity.[/QUOTE]
capitalism isn't holding us back, its a system supporting the most complex possible form of society (at the time being). as to how sustainable such a society is (maybe a few centuries) remains to be seen
[QUOTE=RB33;52455313]With oppressive systems of government/economy gone. [B]Humans are free to care and support each other. And no longer required to resort to selfish, divisive and exploitative behaviour.
[/B]
We will have everything to gain from cooperating, but now capitalism instead forces us to compete and is holding us back as humanity.[/QUOTE]
You have an extremely naive understanding of human nature. Honestly, it's within our nature to form tribes and act to defend those tribes. Regardless or not if theirs a form of currency, we will always fall back to that.
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;52456625]You have an extremely naive understanding of human nature. Honestly, it's within our nature to form tribes and act to defend those tribes. Regardless or not if theirs a form of currency, we will always fall back to that.[/QUOTE]
You see all of humanity is one tribe though, without oppression or competition to hinder us. We'll freely cooperate in our common interests. In world without nations, we are foremost humans, and Americans, Congolese, Mongolians and or whatever else after.
[QUOTE=RB33;52456756]You see all of humanity is one tribe though, without oppression or competition to hinder us. We'll freely cooperate in our common interests. In world without nations, we are foremost humans, and Americans, Congolese, Mongolians and or whatever else after.[/QUOTE]
very little unites humanity beyond the fact we're the same species
I've met brits, swedes, poles, catholics, protestants, people from Yorkshire, men and women, but I don't think I've met a "man" common to them all
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52456840]very little unites humanity beyond the fact we're the same species
I've met brits, swedes, poles, catholics, protestants, people from Yorkshire, men and women, but I don't think I've met a "man" common to them all[/QUOTE]
Yea, but once nations are gone. Religion reduced to always being a private matter. And start seing what we have in common, we will get there.
[QUOTE=RB33;52456988]Yea, but once nations are gone. Religion reduced to always being a private matter. And start seing what we have in common, we will get there.[/QUOTE]
When everything you say is "yeah but.... you're wrong" it's impossible to argue with you. Human nature is visible in history and it isn't as friendly as you think, I think you need more experience with people and work before you start making all the claims you do. They're I'll informed.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52457443]When everything you say is "yeah but.... you're wrong" it's impossible to argue with you. Human nature is visible in history and it isn't as friendly as you think, I think you need more experience with people and work before you start making all the claims you do. They're I'll informed.[/QUOTE]
These are claims made by generations of socialists, I haven't come up with everything i've said myself.
[QUOTE=RB33;52457607]These are claims made by generations of socailists, i haven't come up with everything myself.[/QUOTE]
You might want to go read more of those socialist readings then.
Many of them also get the basic tennants of human nature wrong.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52457609]You might want to go read more of those socialist readings then.
Many of them also get the basic tennants of human nature wrong.[/QUOTE]
No, they don't. Humans aren't cold heartless beings at their core. They care for each other, even people in other countries once it becomes feasible to do so.
[QUOTE=RB33;52457663]No, they don't. Humans aren't cold heartless beings at their core. They care for each other, even people in other countries once it becomes feasible to do so.[/QUOTE]
Sure but that's a wide blanket to throw on all people. The truth isn't that simple.
People are greedy vile creatures scrapping to get whatever they can to survive and provide for their cared for and loved ones. People also have the capacity for great love and sacrifice, but not all people fall into either category but most do. Relying on the good side of humanity just lets the dregs pull us down.
[QUOTE=RB33;52456988]Yea, but once nations are gone. Religion reduced to always being a private matter. And start seing what we have in common, we will get there.[/QUOTE]
why are you talking about "but once x"
i speak of the here and now and what matters at present. i firstly wish to ask why you consider nations a blight enough that they must be removed, and how you intend on achieving this
secondly i ask the same questions but for religion
thirdly what do humans actually have in common that can serve as the basis for a global culture/civilisation/community
What RB33 is describing is basically the lyrics to Imagine. There's a reason this hippy line of thinking never became reality.
[QUOTE=RB33;52457663]No, they don't. Humans aren't cold heartless beings at their core. They care for each other, even people in other countries once it becomes feasible to do so.[/QUOTE]
Your entire line of reasoning is "once everything becomes perfect and everything will be a flawless utopia with endless free stuff for everyone, and people stop being dicks to each other, then it'll be pretty great and everyone will be happy". Well yeah, no shit, it would be amazing, but it's not happening.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52457775]why are you talking about "but once x"
i speak of the here and now and what matters at present. i firstly wish to ask why you consider nations a blight enough that they must be removed, and how you intend on achieving this
secondly i ask the same questions but for religion
thirdly what do humans actually have in common that can serve as the basis for a global culture/civilisation/community[/QUOTE]
Nations are tools of oppression and the people who exploit us. Therefore they must be destroyed in their current state.
Complete separation of church and society's governing institutions. No state religion, no mandatory religious lessons to turn you into a religious follower. No religious propaganda or unwelcome home visits.
We have our race as humans in common, we are one race. We should care about our own survival and well-being.
[QUOTE=RB33;52458806]Nations are tools of oppression and the people who exploit us.[/QUOTE]
This is nonsense of a claim. It actually has no rational merit. I can't even argue against it because there's nothing there to address.
[QUOTE=RB33;52458806]Nations are tools of oppression and the people who exploit us. Therefore they must be destroyed in their current state.
Complete separation of church and society's governing institutions. No state religion, no mandatory religious lessons to turn you into a religious follower. No religious propaganda or unwelcome home visits.
We have our race as humans in common, we are one race. We should care about our own survival and well-being.[/QUOTE]
Dude, I'm not even joking
[quote]
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people living for today
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace, you
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people sharing all the world, you
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one[/quote]
[QUOTE=sgman91;52459678]This is nonsense of a claim. It actually has no rational merit. I can't even argue against it because there's nothing there to address.[/QUOTE]
It's standard anti-capitalist ideology, the state is the tool of the capitalists to oppress the workers. Who is protecting the private owners right to their property, that's right, the state. It will side with those paying it the most.
[QUOTE=RB33;52458806]Nations are tools of oppression and the people who exploit us. Therefore they must be destroyed in their current state.[/quote]
what makes them oppressive, and tools of oppression
[quote]Complete separation of church and society's governing institutions. No state religion, no mandatory religious lessons to turn you into a religious follower. No religious propaganda or unwelcome home visits.[/quote]
[quote=Pravda]We have our race as humans in common, we are one race. We should care about our own survival and well-being.[/QUOTE]
just your own propaganda
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52460516]what makes them oppressive, and tools of oppression[/QUOTE]
See post above, they are pro-capitalist and further the aims of the rich and corrupt, much more often than the people at large.
[QUOTE=RB33;52460529]See post above, they are pro-capitalist and further the aims of the rich and corrupt, much more often than the people at large.[/QUOTE]
how are nations pro-capitalist though
many of them were around prior to capitalism and some nationalist ideologies are anti-capitalist
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52460538]how are nations pro-capitalist though
many of them were around prior to capitalism and some nationalist ideologies are anti-capitalist[/QUOTE]
By existing, they facilitate private ownership and the rights of capitalists. There may be a few exceptions, but this is generally true.
[QUOTE=RB33;52460529]See post above, they are pro-capitalist and further the aims of the rich and corrupt, much more often than the people at large.[/QUOTE]
You slap the label "corrupt" and "oppressive" on all rich people and capitalism as if it's supposed to be an argument or something.
Not even Marx himself called the bourgeoisie evil and corrupt.
Which brings me to the next question. When we're implementing our perfect socialist society, what do we do with our corrupt bourgeois oppressors?
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52460547]You slap the label "corrupt" and "oppressive" on all rich people and capitalism as if it's supposed to be an argument or something.
Not even Marx himself called the bourgeoisie evil and corrupt.
Which brings me to the next question. When we're implementing our perfect socialist society, what do we do with our corrupt bourgeois oppressors?[/QUOTE]
There are none, they are ordinary people like everyone else. Reduced to common people, the capitalists as a class no longer exist.
[QUOTE=RB33;52460551]There are none, they are ordinary people like everyone else. Reduced to common people, the capitalists as a class no longer exist.[/QUOTE]
So you expect people to relinquish their wealth peacefully, without using their capital to resist in any way?
Won't it be easier to just put them all in some sort of labor camp?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52460538]how are nations pro-capitalist though
many of them were around prior to capitalism and some nationalist ideologies are anti-capitalist[/QUOTE]
And capitalism still existed before nations really became a thing
[QUOTE=gokiyono;52460582]And capitalism still existed before nations really became a thing[/QUOTE]
Capitalism isn't the same thing as all forms of trade, that's an uneducated view to have.
[editline]12th July 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52460562]So you expect people to relinquish their wealth peacefully, without using their capital to resist in any way?
Won't it be easier to just put them all in some sort of labor camp?[/QUOTE]
If they are resisting they are doing it regardless if we put them in labor camps or not. Probably more, since they know they're getting put in labor camps. But still, what use is it? They are powerless, no need to have them forcibly contribute labor (which would anti-socialist to begin with).
[QUOTE=RB33;52460541]By existing, they facilitate private ownership and the rights of capitalists. There may be a few exceptions, but this is generally true.[/QUOTE]
how come private property existed/s in non-capitalist societies then.
how do you explain your line of reasoning
a nation is a collection of peoples shared by ethnicity, language, culture, history, etc. how does that facilitate capitalism
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52460789]how come private property existed/s in non-capitalist societies then.
how do you explain your line of reasoning
a nation is a collection of peoples shared by ethnicity, language, culture, history, etc. how does that facilitate capitalism[/QUOTE]
My guess is that it's not private property, it's [i]~personal property~[/i]
I don't remember if anyone made this joke in the 10 pages of this thread but
RB33 is the prime example why we need economic classes [sp]in schools[/sp]
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52460789]how come private property existed/s in non-capitalist societies then.
how do you explain your line of reasoning
a nation is a collection of peoples shared by ethnicity, language, culture, history, etc. how does that facilitate capitalism[/QUOTE]
Because private property arise from the need to organize society, I didn't say that it was exclusive to capitalism, but it's there where it is at its worst.
I already explained it twice, a state make it possible to enforce private property rights through police and courts. When I said nation, I meant state, the two things tend to overlap.
[QUOTE=WhyNott;52461290]I don't remember if anyone made this joke in the 10 pages of this thread but
RB33 is the prime example why we need economic classes [sp]in schools[/sp][/QUOTE]
I know it's a joke, but like economic classes ever teach practical socialism in a viable and non-biased manner. "Capitalism is the only economic system that ever played a role and will." Yeah, right, not a little black and white vision of the world and blind trust in economics.
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