Can we sum up what he's talking about?
Everyone gets free food, healthcare and housing.
You don't have to work if you don't want to but you'll be on "basic income" so you won't get much more than food and housing.
Benefits you can claim are proportional to how hard your job is and how much you work. (I'm guessing those things will also be decided by a democratic vote.)
Somehow (he didn't tell me how even though I asked) these benefits are untransferable and people never countertrade.
There's a democratic vote on what products should be manufactured, how many different types of every single thing and services that people might use (like a dishwasher, car, TVs, toys, panties, any components to any device ever, icecream flavors, ketchup flavors, bread, butter, meat, teaching, massages, hairdressing) there will be and what are the properties of those types. (I'm not sure what happens with niche products and groups of customers). Companies produce only those goods and services that were approved by the society.
People fill out surveys about what they like and don't like about every single product out there and if there is too much or not enough of it and send it to a place where this information is gathered, processed, and then sent to every company producing those goods.
Workers democratically decide what to do with companies they work in. Managers are elected democratically by the workers of the company. People decide on resource allocation meetings which companies produce good products. (I don't know what happens with a company that is deemed bad and doesn't get any resources)
Everything is so optimized (despite no one making fast decisions while everything needs to be voted on) workers are very efficient (because "people want something to do" and they are super motivated to work for the benefit of everyone (because that's human nature)) and there's MUCH less work to do (despite having a gargantuan bureaucracy that sorts through mountains of surveys) that people work only few hours a week. There's actually so little work that some jobs need to be split between people for them to have something to do.
All researchers are pooled together and provided will all resourced required.
The amount of people not working or exploiting this system is marginal. Almost every single person works for the collective giving their best without direct material incentive. (How is this nation-wise state of mind achieved is also unknown)
Did I forget anything or misrepresented something?
i'd rather live in a medieval village than his crackpot society
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;52461632]Can we sum up what he's talking about?
Everyone gets free food, healthcare and housing.
You don't have to work if you don't want to but you'll be on "basic income" so you won't get much more than food and housing.
Benefits you can claim are proportional to how hard your job is and how much you work. (I'm guessing those things will also be decided by a democratic vote.)[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Somehow (he didn't tell me how even though I asked) these benefits are untransferable and people never countertrade.[/QUOTE]
I'm more basic, so I would say coupons with your name on them, which you present along with ID. Other might say through digital bank cards.
[QUOTE]There's a democratic vote on what products should be manufactured, how many different types of every single thing and services that people might use (like a dishwasher, car, TVs, toys, panties, any components to any device ever, icecream flavors, ketchup flavors, bread, butter, meat, teaching, massages, hairdressing) there will be and what are the properties of those types. (I'm not sure what happens with niche products and groups of customers). Companies produce only those goods and services that were approved by the society.
People fill out surveys about what they like and don't like about every single product out there and if there is too much or not enough of it and send it to a place where this information is gathered, processed, and then sent to every company producing those goods.
Workers democratically decide what to do with companies they work in. Managers are elected democratically by the workers of the company. People decide on resource allocation meetings which companies produce good products.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE](I don't know what happens with a company that is deemed bad and doesn't get any resources)[/QUOTE]
They either change what they produce or sit without benefits all day.
[QUOTE]Everything is so optimized (despite no one making fast decisions while everything needs to be voted on) workers are very efficient (because "people want something to do" and they are super motivated to work for the benefit of everyone (because that's human nature)) and there's MUCH less work to do (despite having a gargantuan bureaucracy that sorts through mountains of surveys) that people work only few hours a week. There's actually so little work that some jobs need to be split between people for them to have something to do.
All researchers are pooled together and provided will all resourced required.
The amount of people not working or exploiting this system is marginal.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Almost every single person works for the collective giving their best without direct material incentive. (How is this nation-wise state of mind achieved is also unknown)[/QUOTE]
I would say there are incentives for luxaries beyond basic needs like food and cloths.
[QUOTE]Did I forget anything or misrepresented something?[/QUOTE]
No, you got it right. It sounded wonderful, now where's the closest revolutionary group?
[editline]12th July 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52461641]i'd rather live in a medieval village than his crackpot society[/QUOTE]
What exactly is your issue with it? Because this is probably the closest to heaven on earth, we can get.
[QUOTE=RB33;52461717]I'm more basic, so I would say coupons with your name on them, which you present along with ID. Other might say through digital bank cards.[/QUOTE]
So nontransferable money then? :hammered:
Ok so if I buy sausages with that non-money what makes it impossible for me to trade those sausages to hire someone (who doesn't do legal work) to do something for me instead? Or give those sausages to skip the queue for the painters to paint my house or something? You seriously did not predict countertrade in this.
[QUOTE=RB33;52461717]I would say there are incentives for luxaries beyond basic needs like food and cloths.[/QUOTE]
What direct incentive do I have to do my best at work and not just pretend and slack as hell? Unless you not-pay me non-money that's proportional to my work, there is no DIRECT incentive. There's just the distant threat of the system collapsing.
[QUOTE=RB33;52461717]What exactly is your issue with it? Because this is probably the closest to heaven on earth, we can get.[/QUOTE]
that's precisely the problem with it
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;52461788]So nontransferable money then? :hammered:[/QUOTE]
Just currency, you can't go buy stock with them or buy yourself a factory, that would be illegal.
[QUOTE]Ok so if I buy sausages with that non-money what makes it impossible for me to trade those sausages to hire someone (who doesn't do legal work) to do something for me instead? Or give those sausages to skip the queue for the painters to paint my house or something? You seriously did not predict countertrade in this.
[/QUOTE]
The goal is to have such an effective system to counteract any needs for a black market. The white "market" will outcompete the black.
[QUOTE]What direct incentive do I have to do my best at work and not just pretend and slack as hell? Unless you not-pay me non-money that's proportional to my work, there is no DIRECT incentive. There's just the distant threat of the system collapsing.[/QUOTE]
If productivity falls, so will the payment. Since the payment is based on the amount of productivity. So unless you want decreasing benefits, you're enticed to continue being reasonably productive.
[QUOTE=RB33;52461717]I'm more basic, so I would say coupons with your name on them, which you present along with ID. Other might say through digital bank cards.
They either change what they produce or sit without benefits all day.
I would say there are incentives for luxaries beyond basic needs like food and cloths.
No, you got it right. It sounded wonderful, now where's the closest revolutionary group?
[editline]12th July 2017[/editline]
What exactly is your issue with it? Because this is probably the closest to heaven on earth, we can get.[/QUOTE]
no
see, you keep telling other people "how things are" while being relatively uninformed, inexperienced, and naive. I would refuse to live in your world. If you can't even convince us that this will work, how does this work on a grander scale?
[editline]12th July 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=RB33;52462140]Just currency, you can't go buy stock with them or buy yourself a factory, that would be illegal.
The goal is to have such an effective system to counteract any needs for a black market. The white "market" will outcompete the black.
If productivity falls, so will the payment. Since the payment is based on the amount of productivity. So unless you want decreasing benefits, you're enticed to continue being reasonably productive.[/QUOTE]
So you still have currency, but no "Money"? Those are one in the same!
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52462579]no
see, you keep telling other people "how things are" while being relatively uninformed, inexperienced, and naive. I would refuse to live in your world. If you can't even convince us that this will work, how does this work on a grander scale?[/QUOTE]
If you're a hardcore capitalist who buys into greatness of it and believe that socialism is stalinist oppression or anarchic madness. There is nothing to say.
[QUOTE]So you still have currency, but no "Money"? Those are one in the same![/QUOTE]
Not the traditional definition of money. If nontransferable personal coupons are the same as money. State-owned coporations are also the pinncle of private entrepreneurship.
[QUOTE=RB33;52462630]If you're a hardcore capitalist who buys into greatness of it and believe that socialism is stalinist oppression or anarchic madness. There is nothing to say.
Not the traditional definition of money. If nontransferable personal coupons are the same as money. State-owned coporations are also the pinncle of private entrepreneurship.[/QUOTE]
I'm barely even a capitalist. I like social democracy but your advocated ideas just don't hold up. They don't make sense. They don't add up. You say 2+2= post scarcity. We say 2+2=4. It's a whole different conversation we're having
[editline]12th July 2017[/editline]
You should ask yourself why it's so hard for you to communicate ideas that you think are brilliant to people like myself who would be receptive to them
You don't know me, I'm not some die hard capitalist, don't assume I am just because I reject poor ideas
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52462651]I'm barely even a capitalist. I like social democracy but your advocated ideas just don't hold up. They don't make sense. They don't add up. You say 2+2= post scarcity. We say 2+2=4. It's a whole different conversation we're having
[editline]12th July 2017[/editline]
You should ask yourself why it's so hard for you to communicate ideas that you think are brilliant to people like myself who would be receptive to them
You don't know me, I'm not some die hard capitalist, don't assume I am just because I reject poor ideas[/QUOTE]
Sure, anyway we should let this thread die, it's been a week and I don't even remember a third of anything I might have said.
[QUOTE=RB33;52462803]Sure, anyway we should let this thread die, it's been a week and I don't even remember a third of anything I might have said.[/QUOTE]
I mean if you're giving up, fine but I don't think this threads really "over"
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52462825]I mean if you're giving up, fine but I don't think this threads really "over"[/QUOTE]
Find another socialist or talk to yourself then. Whatever keeps it alive, I guess.
[QUOTE=RB33;52462803]I don't even remember a third of anything I might have said.[/QUOTE]
Frame this quote
It's poetic
[QUOTE=RB33;52462140]Just currency, you can't go buy stock with them or buy yourself a factory, that would be illegal.[/QUOTE]
There's no such thing as nontransferable wealth. You might block ownership of factories and stuff but people will exchange goods, services and positions in queues.
[QUOTE=RB33;52462140]The goal is to have such an effective system to counteract any needs for a black market. The white "market" will outcompete the black.[/QUOTE]
It is literally impossible to have so many workers in every field that there won't be queues in socialist system. Now it works like this, you pay more you get faster and better service, if you don't have that much money you either wait or get a worse one, if you don't have money at all you wait till you have it.
In your system, suddenly everyone wants renovation of their houses, the queue would take years. You really didn't think about many, many things.
[QUOTE=RB33;52462140]If productivity falls, so will the payment. Since the payment is based on the amount of productivity. So unless you want decreasing benefits, you're enticed to continue being reasonably productive.[/QUOTE]
I'm telling you again, this is not how human beings work. This is your fundamental problem. This is the main reason your system is impossible to implement without A) brainwashing every person who's part of this system and keeping the propaganda on very heavy levels B) use force.
Say the productivity of people is getting low, you come to me and tell me to work more because if the trend doesn't change the system will fall. I'd tell you to fuck off because I'm not gonna work my ass off while hundreds of thousands of other people are slacking or not working. I can't change the productivity of the whole system myself in either direction. That's why I need a salary that's proportional to the work I'm doing. And if you think I'm an exception, all I can say, you are naive. Most people are like this. You are the exception here.
[QUOTE=RB33;52462803]Sure, anyway we should let this thread die, it's been a week and I don't even remember a third of anything I might have said.[/QUOTE]
The nice thing about a thought through and consistent viewpoint is that you don't need to remember everything you've said.
[QUOTE=RB33;52462857]Find another socialist or talk to yourself then. Whatever keeps it alive, I guess.[/QUOTE]
You're not a socialist, what you believe in is Utopian. What you're saying doesn't even match the socialist maxim of "to each according to their contribution", it's not workable policy, you have no means to achieve a transition to this state, and all your assumptions ignore fundamental things about human society, like competition.
However if your definition of socialist is "believes in shit that doesn't work", then yeah, you fit right in.
I'm not wasting more time if you intend to deliberately ignore the basics of socialism and how it works, calling your personal opinions facts as if it was the best counter-argument ever devised (Yes, i'm guilty of this, we all are, you're not better though).
[QUOTE=RB33;52464399]calling your personal opinions facts as if it was the best counter-argument ever devised (Yes, i'm guilty of this, we all are, you're not better though).[/QUOTE]
how the heck are you meant to have an even coherent discussion with somebody if you both assume that neither of you are going to attempt to argue faithfully
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52464426]how the heck are you meant to have an even coherent discussion with somebody if you both assume that neither of you are going to attempt to argue faithfully[/QUOTE]
It's most of the internet honestly, particulary political discussion. Either side doesn't really want to give up any ground to the other. I will say it's very rare for someone to open up to socialist arguments without inserting a "but, human nature, only capitalism could've created our current prosperity, look at the soviet union, it will just end up like stalin and so on." It's not really worth arguing with those, they decided their stance before the discussion.
[QUOTE=RB33;52464399]I'm not wasting more time if you intend to deliberately ignore the basics of socialism and how it works, calling your personal opinions facts as if it was the best counter-argument ever devised (Yes, i'm guilty of this, we all are, you're not better though).[/QUOTE]
It really isn't, this isn't the basics of socialism at all, this is socialism according to someone who hasn't remotely considered how to make any of this reality.
I frankly find it baffling that despite living in a country that has arguably the best economic model to date, and that has implemented so successfully it can simultaneously provide extensive worker protections with incredibly high standards of living, you choose to believe in this tripe.
[QUOTE=Big Bang;52464493]It really isn't, this isn't the basics of socialism at all, this is socialism according to someone who hasn't remotely considered how to make any of this reality.
I frankly find it baffling that despite living in a country that has arguably the best economic model to date, and that has implemented so successfully it can simultaneously provide extensive worker protections with incredibly high standards of living, you choose to believe in this tripe.[/QUOTE]
I'm not content, i'm not the winner of this system, the rich are. I want my democratic rights and the society, we got the means but not the will to enact. There is no reason to be content with this when we can do better. If we look at the people of the third world, these people have the most to gain from socialism. They could finally stop working 10+ hours a day just to keep the luxary consumption of the west going, while earning just enough for food. I'm reminded of the guy seriously arguing that sweatshops are acceptable and just a necessary stage of progress. They'll just have to wait 50-100 years for their situation to improve, before then, just let them work their asses off for our gain.
[QUOTE=RB33;52464517]I'm not content, i'm not the winner of this system, the rich are. I want my democratic rights and the society, we got means but not the will to enact. There is no reason to be content with this when we can do better. If we look at the people of the third world, these people have the most to gain from socialism. They could finally stop working 10+ hours a day just to keep the luxary consumption of the west going, while earning just enough for food.[/QUOTE]
I come from the Third World, I come from a country that was until maybe 2014 considered by many Jacobin readers as living proof that socialism works. All it did was breed unforeseen levels of corruption and idleness, the expropriation and subsequent hand-off of private lands to collectives resulted in a total destruction of whatever food production existed as nobody capable of working the land remained. Every single time the state expropriated an industry from private hands and gave it to the public it resulted in the destruction of said industry as the collectives and syndicates never were able to maintain production. As a Venezuelan, all I wanted my entire life was to live somewhere like Sweden where there is no corruption.
You have a horribly narrow view of the Third World. There's a reason China, India, and every country in South America (bar Venezuela) are only getting richer and richer over time, global trade has caused quite the opposite effect from what you describe, it has created jobs and industry that has propped up these countries from however low they've gotten trying in vain to implement communist and socialist ideas. More countries should aspire to be like Sweden, to achieve the level of income equality and worker protection that Sweden has, it's a model that works, empirically, and whatever it is that you're peddling doesn't match it.
RB33 - to me your outlook comes across as somewhat utopian and impractical, but naturally it's completely unfair and ridiculous that many of the people in this thread expect you to have a comprehensive understanding of how every minute aspect of a socialist society would work (not to mention a double standard - nobody ever expects a person defending the status quo to have any sort of significant political understanding).
Are you involved with any local revolutionary parties or organizations? When I started getting into left-wing political thought, I found it very helpful to have experienced people I could discuss politics with and who could recommend me reading based on my current understanding. I don't know anything about the far-left political scene in Sweden, but I imagine there's some kind of group you could get in touch with if you haven't already.
And to those in here throwing about the classic 'human nature' argument; I'm reading a book right now called Mutual Aid by Peter Kropotkin. I'm finding it a really fascinating refutation of the idea that human nature is pointlessly selfish and destructive. We're far beyond the 'survival of the fittest' stage of our evolutionary psychology, people who push that view tend to forget that our ability to build societies and look out for each other as a collective is a far bigger factor in how we've evolved than struggles between humans and other humans. In spite of its age, it actually makes for pretty easy reading, and you can probably find it online.
[QUOTE=RB33;52464399]I'm not wasting more time if you intend to deliberately ignore the basics of socialism and how it works, calling your personal opinions facts as if it was the best counter-argument ever devised (Yes, i'm guilty of this, we all are, you're not better though).[/QUOTE]
Don't try and make some equivalency here. People give you economic or socialogical arguments, and you just dismiss them off hand. As far as I can remember, you haven't given a single coherent argument yet. You state a massive claim with no backup, someone explains why you're wrong, and you either ignore it or dismiss it. Over and over.
[QUOTE=RB33;52464475]It's most of the internet honestly, particulary political discussion. Either side doesn't really want to give up any ground to the other. I will say it's very rare for someone to open up to socialist arguments without inserting a "but, human nature, only capitalism could've created our current prosperity, look at the soviet union, it will just end up like stalin and so on." It's not really worth arguing with those, they decided their stance before the discussion.[/QUOTE]
No I haven't.
I however have read a shit ton of history.
You're so dismissive of anyone that you aren't receptive to any ideas but your own. How you can say we're set in our ways but you're not? I don't get it.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52464838]No I haven't.
I however have read a shit ton of history.
You're so dismissive of anyone that you aren't receptive to any ideas but your own. How you can say we're set in our ways but you're not? I don't get it.[/QUOTE]
We're all are set in our ways. I'm just tired of being anti-freedom, authoritarian and potential gulag supporter. There is little effort to understand socialism than outright condemning it because you read about the Soviets in a history book or simply believe in the good parts about capitalism, while conveniently forgetting the bad parts. "Capitalism might not be good, but it's better than all other things i've heard about." I'm convinced that almost all (good) successes of capitalism can be replicated by socialism and add more upon it. Don't forget how dismissive, pro-capitalists regularly are, they hear socialism and immediately laugh at the thought. Capitalism has holes that can be patched with socialism, but instead of fixing a leaking structure, it would be better to replace it with a new one.
As for your other comments, I read all of them but I shall stop responding now.
[QUOTE=RB33;52465525]We're all are set in our ways. I'm just tired of being anti-freedom, authoritarian and potential gulag supporter. There is little effort to understand socialism than outright condemning it because you read about the Soviets in a history book or simply believe in the good parts about capitalism, while conveniently forgetting the bad parts. "Capitalism might not be good, but it's better than all other things i've heard about." I'm convinced that almost all (good) successes of capitalism can be replicated by socialism and add more upon it. Don't forget how dismissive, pro-capitalists regularly are, they hear socialism and immediately laugh at the thought. Capitalism has holes that can be patched with socialism, but instead of fixing a leaking structure, it would be better to replace it with a new one.
As for your other comments, I read all of them but I shall stop responding now.[/QUOTE]
You literally assume that I'm a super capitalist. You refuse to believe me about what my own views are. That speaks volumes for why conversations with you are so slow to get to a point
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