Jordan Peterson Is Canada's Most Infamous Intellectual - General

Y'know, I'm very torn on Jordan Peterson. On one hand he's said and preached a lot of batshit insane things about social issues and political correctness. When it comes, for instance, to the whole gender pronoun thing I feel like he's making a bigger deal out of it than it really is. It's really not that hard to be accommodating for your fellow human beings. And on the other hand I've watched a bunch of his lectures, all the way through, on areas in clinical psychology and he's a very interesting man to listen to. As someone who is deeply interested in this field of medicine it's very informative and even fun to watch him talk about all of it in a very intuitive way In my opinion, from what I've seen of him anyway, he really seems to be reaching into a field he has no awareness or actual expertise in. In strict clinical psychology he's knowledgeable and clever, but in social issues it feels like he's using that doctorate as an excuse to validate his absolutely bonkers ideas. "I'm a clinical psychologist and therefor", etc.

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;53120393]Peterson is a dumb, whataboutist cunt who spends more time debating with weak opponents to stroke a wounded ego that probably got hurt when he was shoved into a locker as a kid. People who listen to his drivel and believe it are either willfully ignorant or malicious.[/QUOTE] what's funny is you've just done same thing he does a lot you start out a sentence with something that makes sense, and then you just drive the point into a toilet and set the toilet on fire [editline]11th February 2018[/editline] "he debates weak opponents" sure "because he was bullied" hold up

[QUOTE=Coyoteze;53121793]Y'know, I'm very torn on Jordan Peterson. On one hand he's said and preached a lot of batshit insane things about social issues and political correctness. When it comes, for instance, to the whole gender pronoun thing I feel like he's making a bigger deal out of it than it really is. It's really not that hard to be accommodating for your fellow human beings. And on the other hand I've watched a bunch of his lectures, all the way through, on areas in clinical psychology and he's a very interesting man to listen to. As someone who is deeply interested in this field of medicine it's very informative and even fun to watch him talk about all of it in a very intuitive way In my opinion, from what I've seen of him anyway, he really seems to be reaching into a field he has no awareness or actual expertise in. In strict clinical psychology he's knowledgeable and clever, but in social issues it feels like he's using that doctorate as an excuse to validate his absolutely bonkers ideas. "I'm a clinical psychologist and therefor", etc.[/QUOTE] I'd say Mr. Peterson is a perfect example of how having a doctorate is by no means a guarantee that you know what you're talking about. Considering how transgender studies are still in their infancy and how psychology isn't sociology, I don't think we ought to trust his word on either of those until he can thoroughly prove he's doing the research needed.

Women wear makeup to look good. That's both for their male and female co-workers. Looking put together gains respect. You know the term "dress for success." Attraction isn't completely out of the picture, but it isn't the only reason.

[QUOTE=chonks;53122101]Women wear makeup to look good. That's both for their male and female co-workers. Looking put together gains respect. You know the term "dress for success." Attraction isn't completely out of the picture, but it isn't the only reason.[/QUOTE] That's a [I][B]bit [/B][/I]reductionist. I know plenty of women who wear makeup not to look good but because they just enjoy playing around with different styles and trying new things. This might be more of the industry I work in, but just the same many of my coworkers opt out of using makeup at work because they don't feel a need or desire to do so when they're just gonna sit at a computer all day.

[QUOTE=Coyoteze;53121793]Y'know, I'm very torn on Jordan Peterson. On one hand he's said and preached a lot of batshit insane things about social issues and political correctness. When it comes, for instance, to the whole gender pronoun thing I feel like he's making a bigger deal out of it than it really is. It's really not that hard to be accommodating for your fellow human beings. And on the other hand I've watched a bunch of his lectures, all the way through, on areas in clinical psychology and he's a very interesting man to listen to. As someone who is deeply interested in this field of medicine it's very informative and even fun to watch him talk about all of it in a very intuitive way In my opinion, from what I've seen of him anyway, he really seems to be reaching into a field he has no awareness or actual expertise in. In strict clinical psychology he's knowledgeable and clever, but in social issues it feels like he's using that doctorate as an excuse to validate his absolutely bonkers ideas. "I'm a clinical psychologist and therefor", etc.[/QUOTE] That's not actually all that abnormal. I need to find my book, but there's a huge learning issue for people where the more you focus on a particular subject, the more your mental blinders build up. I could never remember the name so I started calling it "Engineer's Syndrome" because if anyone whose gone to a Technical School can tell you, Mech-Es and Civil Engineers think they know everything just because they can design mechanical systems or create bridge layouts.

[QUOTE=SunsetTable;53122385]That's not actually all that abnormal. I need to find my book, but there's a huge learning issue for people where the more you focus on a particular subject, the more your mental blinders build up. I could never remember the name so I started calling it "Engineer's Syndrome" because if anyone whose gone to a Technical School can tell you, Mech-Es and Civil Engineers think they know everything just because they can design mechanical systems or create bridge layouts.[/QUOTE] [URL="https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Engineer+Syndrome"]That is what it's called.[/URL]

And I'm back! [QUOTE=01271;53120237] Overall you did a good job of understanding me, understanding Jordan Peterson but you didn't really understand m103.[/QUOTE] I think I actually covered the reasons for my disagreement to parts of your rebuttal well in my last post. I will recap the point again, and address a few more of your points in detail before moving on to the next original point of criticism - Bill C-16. The reason Peterson's legalistic point is valid, assuming that it pertains to the legal definition of Islamophobia, is because the definition you provided seemingly conflates criticism and humiliation with humanistic hate. I absolutely agree that hate speech on the basis of race or religion ought not to be allowed, but I also think it is a valid point to raise the issue of limits. At what point does a scathing criticism of a religion become unacceptable? If it is at the point where the person in question becomes humiliated, then I dare say we have legislated away atheistic criticism all together. I'm a theist by the way, so it's not the case that I just really want religions to get shat on. I simply see that criticism is a good thing, and without that echo-chambers form on both sides. Anyone who does or say something stupid ought to be lambasted, and then the discussion of their failures will produce a better result in the end. To that end, once again, I concede your point that he over-sensationalized what practically amounts to a non-binding motion, and in truth Peterson did do wrong in treating the subject via a shitty Youtube poem. But, in principle, even a motion that uses the word Islamophobia is enough to set precedent that legitimizes that concept despite, as I argue, the fact it still needs to be better defined. Had the wording be made more neutral so as to coincide with existing anti-hate speech laws, then there would be no problem. Now to address some of your points in specific: [quote]he delimitation we have in place right now allowed the comedy show Infoman on Radio Canada, one of our biggest TV channels to broadcast ON NEW YEARS EVE a satirical ad for décapita-stop, the metal anti decapitation collar to save you from being beheaded after insulting islam. Nothing bad happened. The delimitation is fine as it is. This would actually be off-topic for m103 if Jordan Peterson wasn't here crying wolf.[/quote] This anecdote does speak to your point, but, I will argue that you cannot only appeal to such a thing in order to fully be justified in what you say. The level of ridicule that something receives can range from a radio broadcast to a heated in-person argument. Ofcourse, to do so in a harassing manner is a different story, but a heated argument ought to be allowed despite what vitriol might be hurled at each other regarding one another's ideology. If we were to go by your provided definition, then if such an argument resulted in humiliation or criticism, then it would be considered islamophobic. [quote]In Canada, anti-muslim hate crime has seen a year-to-year rise in 2015, 2014. A symbolic gesture and a study into why it's happening is necessary. Add in Alexandre Bissonette shooting up a mosque and we would be fools to look at statistics like: Hate crimes against Muslims in Canada up 60%, StatsCan reports without doing anything.[/quote] See, this is a good argument, but my counter would be that Islamophobia is a redundant additional term. We ought to dissuade hate-crimes of all forms, but those are already clearly defined without recourse to nebulous notions of 'humilation'. Taken from wikipedia: [quote="WIKI"]The Criminal Code. Sections 318, 319, and 320 of the Criminal Code forbid hate propaganda. "Hate propaganda" means "any writing, sign or visible representation that advocates or promotes genocide or the communication of which by any person would constitute an offence under section 319." [/quote] [quote]There is no law aspect to this motion. Legality is not involved, just study.[/quote] In order to study something you need to know what it is you intend to study, do you not? As such, to motion a study predicated on the concept of islamophobia as opposed to a more strict definition is to make nebulous and highly political as to what it is that the study should actually look at At this point I should be careful not to strawman the definition of Islamophobia from the OHRC. Originally, and most prominently, this definition is given: [quote="OHRC"] Islamophobia can be described as stereotypes, bias or acts of hostility towards individual Muslims or followers of Islam in general. In addition to individual acts of intolerance and racial profiling, Islamophobia leads to viewing Muslims as a greater security threat on an institutional, systemic and societal level.[64][/quote] This definition is better, but, perhaps owing to my limited knowledge of the exact definitions of some of terms, it still seems that there is much room for lee-way. That suspicion of mine is confirmed when in the same document, alternate definitions are presented as though they were unproblematic; [quote="OHRC"] 1.4.3 Islamophobia A number of witnesses provided different definitions of the term, such as: “an irrational fear or hatred of Muslims or Islam that leads to discrimination;”[65] “anti-Muslim discrimination or hate;”[66] “[B]a criticizing or scathing negative opinion that might directly or indirectly cause humiliation [U]or[/U][/B] damage to the reputation and or incite to hatred and to violence against a person or a group of persons for the only reason that they are of Muslim faith;”[67]“extends from ‘a fear or hatred of Islam and Muslims’ to acknowledge that these attitudes develop into individual, ideological, and systemic forms of oppression that shore up specific power relations;”[68] “anti-Muslim hate;”[69] and “the irrational fear or hatred of Muslims.”[70][/quote] While many of these take the straightforward phobia-structure approach to this, and some even acceptably include denouncements of specific hate, or incitements to violence, there is still seemingly quite a bit of implicit ideological content contained in at least one of the 'or' conditions. The definition in question is not necessarily the official one, but at the very least it has been both given legitimacy by its placement next to the others, and furthermore by indicating that such a definition might be typical of the casual observer. To conclude, I see very clearly why someone might take issue with this motion, and I am likely in the camp that says; [quote]The word “Islamophobia” is an umbrella term that also conflates legitimate criticism of Islam—as is being done by many of my fellow liberals and secular activists trying to change our societies in the Muslim world—with the demonization of Muslims, which is obviously wrong.[72][/quote] I hope that my points were fair. I see your point of contention and wish only to argue that the position Peterson took isn't necessarily wrong or bigoted. What is wrong is the broad strokes in which he paints the legal implications, but generally this isn't true of cases where he treats the subject in actual detail. In C-16, at least, he laid out his argument for the de-facto effects that legislating speech could have. He still didn't do an ideal job, but at the very least he was clear about his opposition to the notion of mandated speech and the ideological content that lies implicit in some of the wording of the bill. Now, to move on to bill C-16. It will take me a while to write that up, so I will post this now so as not the create too large a wall of text. Hopefully the C-16 response will come in the following hours. Thanks again for debating amicably.

[QUOTE=Mech Bgum;53121568]Taking a bath and putting on high heels is a different league. Being clean is one thing. Feeling attractive is another. One is bodily perception, another is social perception. Attractiveness feels good, yes. Being sexually attractive feels pretty good too. I'm just saying it's not the same thing. Women don't put on [B]bright red[/B] lipstick to feel nice thick layer on their lips.[/QUOTE] i paint my nails and put on lipstick because [i]i like how it makes me look to myself[/i], dunno what you're on about

[video=youtube_share;RhdEbOzcN1U]http://youtu.be/RhdEbOzcN1U[/video] Holy shit Jordon is going mad

[QUOTE=eatdembeanz;53122097]I'd say Mr. Peterson is a perfect example of how having a doctorate is by no means a guarantee that you know what you're talking about. Considering how [B]transgender studies are still in their infancy[/B] and how psychology isn't sociology, I don't think we ought to trust his word on either of those until he can thoroughly prove he's doing the research needed.[/QUOTE] Completely off topic, but I really want to see the alternate universe where the [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_f%C3%BCr_Sexualwissenschaft"]Institut für Sexualwissenschaft[/URL] wasn't more or less destroyed by the nazis. We'd probably see less petersons and a better general understanding/acceptance of LGBT folks.

[QUOTE=J!NX;53122765][video=youtube_share;RhdEbOzcN1U]http://youtu.be/RhdEbOzcN1U[/video] Holy shit Jordon is going mad[/QUOTE] What's the background audio from? It sounds so familiar but I can't place it.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;53122938]What's the background audio from? It sounds so familiar but I can't place it.[/QUOTE] It's not from anything, Jordon is actually so full of hate that he creates ambient evil music

Wtf what's wrong with girls having make-up on at work? Isn't there a social/monetary benefit for being attractive? That's so hypocritical of him actually. He's all against having his words policed but when it comes to policing a woman's appearance in the work place it's all "Well that's why guys touch women at work. I mean just look at all that make-up she's wearing" As for can men and women work together in a workplace, I think that they can. Men and women have always needed to work together on at least some kind of level. It's not like we're not fucking isolated from each other. Why should we further isolate ourselves? He clearly doesn't have data but he also certainly is suggesting it's the case. WTF This video is so weird to watch cause I really liked him for a while. He's being way to cocky now and it's hurting his reputation. It seems like fame got to him in a bad way.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;53122938]What's the background audio from? It sounds so familiar but I can't place it.[/QUOTE] It sounds like 2001 a space odyssey the monolith music.

[QUOTE=Zenreon117;53122597]post.[/QUOTE] Unfortunately now I am arguing with you about the subject rather than talking about the actual video. You have left Peterson behind. At this point he's only an inspiration rather than the source of the arguments. You're better at this than Peterson is. In the m103 video he's attacking only iqra khalid and the motion, if he had been attacking the preexisting definition of the word islamophobia he would have been ranting against the [url=http://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/policy-and-guidelines-racism-and-racial-discrimination/part-1-%E2%80%93-setting-context-understanding-race-racism-and-racial-discrimination#fnB3]document detailing its definition[/url] written in 2005 rather than her motion to study racism. ( I found this page by following citation [64] in the CHPC document ) I think you have sort of turned Jordan Peterson into an extension of yourself and you're not treating him fairly. Rather than let him make a mistake you're reshaping him and pointing his argument at a completely different target to make him right. Sort of like if you shipped him to another time zone where it's the evening after he said the sky was orange and you noticed a bright blue sky and sunny day outside. The video is him just repeating the same things over and over, iqra khalid, are you a salomon rushdie? this is a picture of.... this is a picture of... He's been living with the definition for 12 years now. He's not censored. also as an aside: [quote] “[B]a criticizing or scathing negative opinion that might directly or indirectly cause humiliation or[/B] damage to the reputation and or incite to hatred and to violence against a person or a group of persons for the only reason that they are of Muslim faith;”[67]“extends from ‘a fear or hatred of Islam and Muslims’ to acknowledge that these attitudes develop into individual, ideological, and systemic forms of oppression that shore up specific power relations;”[68][/quote] You bolded this part. [quote] “a criticizing or scathing negative opinion that might directly or indirectly cause humiliation or damage to the reputation and or incite to hatred and to violence against a person or a group of persons [B]for the only reason that they are of Muslim faith[/B];”[67]“extends from ‘a fear or hatred of Islam and Muslims’ to acknowledge that these attitudes develop into individual, ideological, and systemic forms of oppression that shore up specific power relations;”[68][/quote] I'll bold this part. This makes it reasonable.

[QUOTE=RichyZ;53123132]so why do lesbians put on makeup if the only purpose is to arouse men[/QUOTE] Because they are all self-hating creatures that still secretly desire the man meat, as are all biological women, which is why lesbianism is morally wrong, of course. Gosh, it's like you don't even shove your head into the Conservative My Opinion=Valid Political Stance Machine™ before posting.

[QUOTE=RichyZ;53123132]so why do lesbians put on makeup if the only purpose is to arouse men[/QUOTE] Red lips are sexually attractive??? I feel that everyone missed that Jordan was playing a sort of devil's advocate with what he was saying. He's a teacher he asks questions that make you think. You may not like the question but I feel that 6 pages of discussion justified what he asked

[QUOTE=SpartanXC9;53123316]Red lips are sexually attractive??? I feel that everyone missed that Jordan was playing a sort of devil's advocate with what he was saying. He's a teacher he asks questions that make you think. You may not like the question but I feel that 6 pages of discussion justified what he asked[/QUOTE] See, I'm no expert on English grammar but his 'questions' look suspiciously like statements and claims.

[QUOTE=Lambeth;53118900]The idea that men and women can't work together and women can't wear makeup in the workplace because it's sexually provocative are two dumb as hell ideas that nobody should respect.[/QUOTE] That's not what he said though. He posed it as an example of something that could be discussed to solve sexual harassment in the workplace.

[QUOTE=Dirty_Ape;53124096]That's not what he said though. He posed it as an example of something that could be discussed to solve sexual harassment in the workplace.[/QUOTE] [media]https://twitter.com/classiclib3ral/status/962197738438975488[/media] It's right here. Here's the clipped part out in the video. He thinks that women who wear makeup in the workplace are hypocrites because it's "encouraging sexual harassment". As soon as they put it on it's open season for cocks to come out. "Do you feel like a serious woman who does not want sexual harassment in the workplace do you feel like if she wears makeup in the workplace that she's being somewhat hypocritical?" "Yeah. I do think that." As we all know as soon as she has red lips or a pair of high heels... she's asking for it.

Men shouldn't be allowed to wear ties anymore because it accentuates the genitals and thus encourages unprofessional behavior in the workplace

[QUOTE=cdr248;53126208]Men shouldn't be allowed to wear ties anymore because it accentuates the genitals and thus encourages unprofessional behavior in the workplace[/QUOTE] I take it that you've read this? [url]https://thebaffler.com/salvos/dickheads[/url]

[QUOTE=JustExtreme;53126710]I take it that you've read this? [url]https://thebaffler.com/salvos/dickheads[/url][/QUOTE] I'm flattered that you think I read anything

[QUOTE=Berman Slick;53130192]What does he hate?[/QUOTE] women, evidently [editline]14th February 2018[/editline] idk how many times you need him to paraphrase 'i don't respect women and i just view them as sexual objects' to get that

[QUOTE=Rusty100;53130247]women, evidently [editline]14th February 2018[/editline] idk how many times you need him to paraphrase 'i don't respect women and i just view them as sexual objects' to get that[/QUOTE] Yeah, I wouldn't go that far. He may have some shitty sensationalism on occasion, think its okay to post the FB profile of someone who uses that profile to shit on him, and some misguided views on the role of CO2 in climate change, I concede these points, but he doesn't hate women, trans-people, or any other minority you can think of. Just because he said that it is unclear that its possible to remove all problems from the workplace (And said it would be great if we could), and that that may be due to statistical tendencies in men and women, doesn't mean he thinks of women as simply sexual objects. I don't know how you got that impression except from a lack of listening to his views.

i got that impression from reading this entire thread and all the actual peterson quotes as well as looking into him myself. somebody can hate something without coming out and explicitly saying they hate it. it's everything else he says about women (and trans people, etc) that gives a very clear indication of hatred, fear or lack of respect, whichever you believe it is. he wouldn't have said all the things he says on record about women if he respected them. he is a hate filled quack, man. that's super, super clear.

[QUOTE=01271;53123126]Unfortunately now I am arguing with you about the subject rather than talking about the actual video. You have left Peterson behind. At this point he's only an inspiration rather than the source of the arguments. [/quote] I agree, but that doesn't mean that my point about his video's main drive hinging on that definition, assuming a charitable lack of knowledge on Peterson's part, isn't a reasonable one. He is highly legalistic and so that should be the take-away, rather than that he wants to call Iqra a terrorist. [quote] I think you have sort of turned Jordan Peterson into an extension of yourself and you're not treating him fairly. ... The video is him just repeating the same things over and over, iqra khalid, are you a salomon rushdie? this is a picture of.... this is a picture of... He's been living with the definition for 12 years now. He's not censored. [/quote] I certainly wouldn't say I'm treating him as an extension of my self so much as someone who I consider to have reasonable opinions on many things. He's not always in the right, but at the same time he makes no secret of the fact that he is working out these ideas day by day. I suppose, to address your earlier accusation of me defending him as though he were my father - your charge of me bring emotion into this - I will grant that I believe he has helped more people that he has hurt, and that the monicker of hack-nazi-chauvinist is frankly utterly unbefitting. As for the video, Good point, but frankly I wouldn't expect the nuances of these points to come out in what literally amounts to a youtube poem. You've convinced me that, if he knew about that definition, then he is in the wrong assuming his poem was making a legalistic point. If he didn't know, then, while he ought to have done more homework before posting this at what seems like 3am, that doesn't make him anything more than someone concerned about double-standards. [quote] also as an aside: You bolded this part. [/quote] To this, all I will say is that there is a truck load of 'or's in there, and although I think I can tell there is a critical and/or clause tucked inside that makes the definition come out right (I think), I can totally see most people looking over that definition and seeing the reason clause being seperate from the humiliation clause. [quote] I'll bold this part. This makes it reasonable.[/QUOTE] It does. [editline]13th February 2018[/editline] [QUOTE=Rusty100;53130284]i got that impression from reading this entire thread and all the actual peterson quotes as well as looking into him myself. somebody can hate something without coming out and explicitly saying they hate it. it's everything else he says about women (and trans people, etc) that gives a very clear indication of hatred, fear or lack of respect, whichever you believe it is. he wouldn't have said all the things he says on record about women if he respected them. he is a hate filled quack, man. that's super, super clear.[/QUOTE] I have listened to him a lot so maybe I am just oppression-blind here, help me out? What has he said that makes you go "ok, yeah, that guy must be a 'nazi' "

[QUOTE=Zenreon117;53130299]I agree, but that doesn't mean that my point about his video's main drive hinging on that definition, assuming a charitable lack of knowledge on Peterson's part, isn't a reasonable one. He is highly legalistic and so that should be the take-away, rather than that he wants to call Iqra a terrorist. I certainly wouldn't say I'm treating him as an extension of my self so much as someone who I consider to have reasonable opinions on many things. He's not always in the right, but at the same time he makes no secret of the fact that he is working out these ideas day by day. I suppose, to address your earlier accusation of me defending him as though he were my father - your charge of me bring emotion into this - I will grant that I believe he has helped more people that he has hurt, and that the monicker of hack-nazi-chauvinist is frankly utterly unbefitting. As for the video, Good point, but frankly I wouldn't expect the nuances of these points to come out in what literally amounts to a youtube poem. You've convinced me that, if he knew about that definition, then he is in the wrong assuming his poem was making a legalistic point. If he didn't know, then, while he ought to have done more homework before posting this at what seems like 3am, that doesn't make him anything more that someone concerned about double-standards. To this, all I will say is that there is a truck load of 'or's in there, and althought I think I can tell there is a critical and/or clause tucked inside that makes the definition come out right (I think), I can totally see most people looking over that definition and seeing the reason clause being seperate from the humiliation clause. It does. [editline]13th February 2018[/editline] I have listened to him a lot so maybe I am just oppression-blind here, help me out? What has he said that makes you go "ok, yeah, that guy must be a 'nazi' "[/QUOTE] Where are you getting that rusty called peterson a nazi? Seriously, this keeps happening where someone outlines why they don't like peterson and people respond "oh, so you're calling him a 'nazi' now?" You even put 'nazi' in quotation marks like it's something you're ironically accusing him of saying despite Rusty never using the word. Combined with the phrase 'oppression-blind' (again, oppression is not a word Rusty never used) indicates that you aren't coming into this conversation without a sizable chip on your shoulder.

[QUOTE=Zyler;53130306]Where are you getting that rusty called peterson a nazi? Seriously, this keeps happening where someone outlines why they don't like peterson and people respond "oh, so you're calling him a 'nazi' now?" You even put 'nazi' in quotation marks like it's something you're ironically accusing him of saying despite Rusty never using the word.[/QUOTE] I am using 'nazi' as a catch all, which is why I put it in sub-quotes within that, so as to imply that rusty doesnt think he is a [i]actual[/i] Nazi. Basically, I am using it as a pejorative for your pejoratives. [quote]hate filled quack[/quote] 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