Firearms XIII - Talk about all the guns - General

Hmm. Good point. Let's just say for the sake of the fact that I'd like to be able to go skeet shooting, I'd like a shotgun, and maybe I could pick up an ar down the road Do you have any suggestions?

[QUOTE=agentfazexx;49368093][url]https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/virginia-politics/va-attorney-general-mark-herring-delivers-blow-to-gun-rights-advocates/2015/12/21/d72ce3d0-a821-11e5-9b92-dea7cd4b1a4d_story.html[/url] This is big[/QUOTE] Whelp. No more cc into VA then. Sucks.

[QUOTE=camaroni;49370079]Whelp. No more cc into VA then. Sucks.[/QUOTE] If you really need it, you can get a VA nonresident carry permit, can't you?

If you have $100, a notary to take oaths, and have enough heads up to get it before hand. But our nonres aren't given that much, and are being given less. I'm more concerned with PA no longer accepting our CCs too, which really sucks for hunting that I can't carry my handguns with me while in the woods as of February. :(

[QUOTE=ricky23;49368329]I'm a bit confused on the hate for shotguns/birdshot. That is literally the last thing I'd ever want to get hit by. I'd agree it's not going to be instantly lethal, but in the case I'm using it, which would be in under 10 feet, I think it would hurt like a MF. An ar really just seems ridiculous for situations under 10 feet, but maybe I'm wrong.[/QUOTE] There is no gun I would want to get shot by, but people vastly overestimate the damage a shotgun produces, and like I said there's no shotgun round that is an effective man-stopper that won't also go through walls and injure or kill whoever's on the other side. At close range the shot cup won't open and you might as well be firing slugs, and once it opens birdshot is notoriously bad at penetrating even thick clothing. An AR at minimum legal length is compact, easy to handle, and can be loaded with ammo that is lethal while still minimizing the risk of overpenetration. It's no more unwieldy or harder to aim than a shotgun at the distances involved in self-defense, and if you miss or fail to incapacitate your target on the first shot follow-up shots are much quicker. I cannot think of any practical advantage a shotgun has over an AR for self-defense. You get a better chance of killing on the first shot, and lose massively in controllability, follow-up shot speed, magazine capacity, ease of reloading, and ease of operation.

But, that fucking racking of a shotgun trumps all when you live by yourself or with a spouse and don't need to leave the room and want to scare the fuck out of someone coming in. There's nothing that sounds anything like a good pump going into battery.

[QUOTE=ricky23;49368329]I'm a bit confused on the hate for shotguns/birdshot. That is literally the last thing I'd ever want to get hit by. I'd agree it's not going to be instantly lethal, but in the case I'm using it, which would be in under 10 feet, I think it would hurt like a MF. An ar really just seems ridiculous for situations under 10 feet, but maybe I'm wrong.[/QUOTE] Yea birdshot is complete garbage for anything other than birds or rats. Birdshot is near useless for self defense against actual human beings, unless you're being attacked by infants. Furthermore, if you want a gun for self defense you want a gun that is going to kill somebody, not wound or scare them. Never ever aim to wound or maim and never ever point a gun at somebody unless you're ready to kill them. This isn't just about cruelly maiming somebody for the rest of their life, it's also about the protection of yourself, your property, and your loved ones. Most people would be deterred from whatever they're doing by the sound of a pump shotgun racking from down the hall, and even more would be deterred by getting hit in the face by 2 dozen BB pellets. But for the one hyped up meth tweaker that breaks in that isn't, you're pretty much fucked and anyone who you're trying to protect may also be fucked as well. Shoot to kill and never anything else. If you're not prepared to kill somebody in a self defense situation, then you can buy a bean-bag gun at some gun stores or order one online.

[QUOTE=CoilingTesla;49371554]If you really need it, you can get a VA nonresident carry permit, can't you?[/QUOTE] I probably could. The idea that other states may follow suit bothers me.

[QUOTE=mastoner20;49372416]But, that fucking racking of a shotgun trumps all when you live by yourself or with a spouse and don't need to leave the room and want to scare the fuck out of someone coming in. There's nothing that sounds anything like a good pump going into battery.[/QUOTE] I'm not saying I disagree with the fact that a pump shotgun being racked is scary as fuck, but the kind of criminal who won't run at the sound of [I]any[/I] weapon going into battery is exactly the kind of criminal you don't want to be advertising your position to. People on meth, for example, are attracted to noise, and have been known to move [i]towards[/i] the sound of a shotgun being racked. If someone's in your house, what you ought to be doing is calling 911, staying in your room, and if they come to you shoot to end the threat. 'Just rack your shotgun to scare them off' is Biden-tier home defense advice, to be honest.

I never specified it was the only action to take. But loading a shotgun with double-aught in home defense where you know you can stay at the doorway and land decent shots on isn't anywhere near as terrible a defensive gun as you say, either. There's a reason cops have been issued 12-gauges for decades and still continue to. I'm not saying it's a perfect solution, but just like anything; there's gives and takes. Basically the same thing why the older 5.56/.308 and AR/AK debates will never end, is because they can't. You're always comparing two completely different principles to one another.

[QUOTE=mastoner20;49372622]I never specified it was the only action to take. But loading a shotgun with double-aught in home defense where you know you can stay at the doorway and land decent shots on isn't anywhere near as terrible a defensive gun as you say, either. There's a reason cops have been issued 12-gauges for decades and still continue to. I'm not saying it's a perfect solution, but just like anything; there's gives and takes. Basically the same thing why the older 5.56/.308 and AR/AK debates will never end, is because they can't. You're always comparing two completely different principles to one another.[/QUOTE] You're not wrong at all. But in my opinion, the principal of a handgun for home defense or a shorter intermediate caliber rifle for home defense is more advantageous than a shotgun for home defense.

After doing some research, it seems that theres people for and against birdshot. From what ive seen, birdshot will still penetrate skin at 150 feet. If i was worried about people over 100 feet away, id DEFINITELY buy some ar. Since i might be dealing with people closer than 10 feet to me, id say a 12g with birdshot seems pretty damn good. Again, going back to my post before, id rather be hit by some single bullet to the torso than get a couple hundred lead pellets an inch or more under my skin. Many tests indicate #8 birdshot at close range easily penetrate 1-4 inches into pigs and ballistics gel. Im not just saying, "lalalalalalala i cant hear you", im just saying that shotguns vs ARs seems to be like hotdogs and hamburgers, everyone thinks the other is shit.

Welcome to gun debates on the GatPunch. I mean, we had a debate on whether another users AK was deactivated or not for a good solid week because we have nothing else better to do. That was the best debate I've seen on the internet since for once we weren't comparing a meat cleaver to a machete and wondering why our chop sticks aren't picking up our soup the right way.

[QUOTE=ricky23;49372777]Many tests indicate #8 birdshot at close range easily penetrate 1-4 inches into pigs and ballistics gel.[/QUOTE] The generally accepted standard for defense ammunition is twelve inches. There is no reason to use birdshot. There is no reason that you [I]have[/I] to use birdshot. Your shotgun will chamber 00 Buck just the same. Birdshot gives you absolutely no advantage. None. I don't even know why you're talking about it, there is actually not a single reason to consider using it in the first place. If you use birdshot despite this, ignorant of all commonly accepted knowledge, you are only being a jackass and endangering your own life. I also can't believe I'm reading that "sound of a shotgun's action" garbage here.

[QUOTE=ricky23;49372777]After doing some research, it seems that theres people for and against birdshot. From what ive seen, birdshot will still penetrate skin at 150 feet. If i was worried about people over 100 feet away, id DEFINITELY buy some ar. Since i might be dealing with people closer than 10 feet to me, id say a 12g with birdshot seems pretty damn good. Again, going back to my post before, id rather be hit by some single bullet to the torso than get a couple hundred lead pellets an inch or more under my skin. Many tests indicate #8 birdshot at close range easily penetrate 1-4 inches into pigs and ballistics gel. Im not just saying, "lalalalalalala i cant hear you", im just saying that shotguns vs ARs seems to be like hotdogs and hamburgers, everyone thinks the other is shit.[/QUOTE] Look, how lethal something is isn't all about penetration. Even if it was, 1-4 inches is fucking garbage. It's all about temporary and permanent wound canals. A handful of wound canals a barely a mm in diameter that only go 1 inch deep is not going to be lethal, and isn't going to be enough to put someone into shock or incapacitate them let alone kill them. I would rather get hit by someone using birdshot than a 62gr hollowpoint thats going to shred my organs and kill me near instantly. Rifle rounds and handgun rounds leave much larger wound canals than birdshot does, and it also will break bones where as birdshot will not, and thats pretty important. Birdshot is going to have a harder time reaching vital organs because it has garbage penetration and doesn't do well against bone. And as has been previously stated, has a hard time penetrating thicker clothing. [img]http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Misc_Images/DocGKR/RussianWP.jpg[/img] This is a diagram of ballistic performance of a few different rifle rounds. The non-shaded area is the temporary wound canal and the shaded area is the permanent wound canal. The temp wound canal is going to shake and vibrate like crazy as the bullet passes through it, ripping apart organs or severely damaging them and sending that person into shock (unless they're on something). This is something birdshot won't do because it doesn't have the weight or velocity to create large wound canals. It's not completely ineffectual but why would you use birdshot when you can get something that is near-guaranteed to drop someone? With all do respect, anyone who uses birdshot for home defense is a fucking moron, and anyone who recommends it is also a fucking moron but a dangerous one for recommending their stupidity to others. A SBR AR is near-ideal for home defense. It's compact and easy to maneuver, it's semi automatic, and it has the capacity to stop more than one intruder. [img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/M16A2_M855_5.56X45mm_NATO_wound_ballistics.gif[/img] This is not apples to oranges or hamburgers to hotdogs. This is potentially life and death for you dood, why would you pointlessly and recklessly sacrifice lethality when it's your wellbeing on the line? Nobody, unless they unintentionally killed someone, has ever wished they'd used a less powerful round when they killed somebody.

If you're going to use a 12g for home defense I suggest buying some home defense rounds.. I like the stuff I got, has a slug and 00 buck shot in it. You honestly don't want to risk using unreliable ammo types, specially at home.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;49373051] A SBR AR is near-ideal for home defense. It's compact and easy to maneuver, it's semi automatic, and it has the capacity to stop more than one intruder. [img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/M16A2_M855_5.56X45mm_NATO_wound_ballistics.gif[/img] [/QUOTE] I have two problems with this; primarily that M855 doesn't do that reliably, and if it does, it's inside of 100yds because it has to be going above 2700 fps do so. Secondly, an SBR AR is marginally less effective due to the terminal performance of the .223/5.56 cartridge in shot barrels and at lower velocities; they are especially dependent on effective bullets. If you're looking for good .223 or 5.56 ammo for defense, look up Mk 318 Mod 0 (62gr OTM); You can find the civilian reproduction in the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw or .223 and 5.56 Speer Gold Dot [img]http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a72/leid/Ammo/975430f7-e25b-4dc2-8df0-f8278277668f_zps3f2ac699.jpg[/img] Here is a chart that better correlates to the discussion: You can see the over penetration by buckshot and handgun ammunition [img]http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/WoundProfilesAfterWallBarrier.jpg[/img] Here you can see the varying performance of .223/5.56 ammunition: [img]http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Misc_Images/DocGKR/40052-MilitaryAssaultRifleWPcopy.jpg[/img] Barrier penetration and terminal performance of selected .223/5.56: [url]http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/223%20Barrier%20Rounds.htm[/url] Here is an example of an excellent all purpose round, the Army's new M855A1 EPR; it frags and penetrates AR680 armor out of a 16" barrel: [url]http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/10/17/twc-tests-m855a1-yes-its-the-real-deal/[/url] Slow motion video of another gel test: [url]http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/12/16/incredible-high-speed-footage-armys-new-round-gel/[/url]

Its not "home" defense persay, its more business defense. Being in a business park lands me smack dab in the middle of lots of people. When you say birdshot wont put someone in "shock", i think thats bs. Its not 5, its not 10, its not 50, but over 400 pellets. I dont care if it goes in 1/8th of an inch. thats gonna fricking hurt. Also keep in mind this is point blank. Zero distance between the end of the barrel and their chest. In this video, the guy uses 1/8th inch leather and then denim. It blows right through said materials and then STILL penetrates 3.5 inches. The average human is ~9 inches thick. So basically, even through clothing thats way thicker than what an average person wears, its still going to hit your organs. Its going to hit your bones, its gonna rip up meat and muscle, its gonna rip up veins, its gonna tear into your lungs and cause you to drown in your own blood preeeetty quick. sure it wont break bones, it wont create MASSIVE holes in people, but it will create hundreds upon hundreds of little holes that will bleed profusely and knock you on your ass. Yeah, i understand slugs/buckshot, or even the combination shells would be great, but i dont want to risk putting innocent lives in danger. not even to mention that around me, i have a park, a very busy street about 1000 feet away, and an interstate 1000 feet away on the other side. a bullet, even something that could have "very little energy after drywall" could also very easily go through glass, which is pretty much what id be aiming at, which has the interstate behind it. Id rather put my life slightly more "in danger" than tons of other bystanders. Youre shitting yourself if you think someones gonna still be standing after taking birdshot to the chest. Come on man.

In a small area like a shop, I could see birdshot working fine for taking a badguy out of comission. Anything more than about 3x pissing range and you run the chance of just pissing him off. Perhaps if you got a narrow choke the impact of all the pellets would have a beanbag-like effect at a slightly longer range. This would all require testing to know for sure.

Why the hell did you come here and ask your question if you're not going to listen to the advice and evidence presented? It has already been thoroughly explained why not to use bird shot for anything but birds.

[QUOTE=download;49373638]Why the hell did you come here and ask your question if you're not going to listen to the advice and evidence presented? It has already been thoroughly explained why not to use bird shot for anything but birds.[/QUOTE] I was waiting for this question to come up, and i can turn it right back around. Not trying to bite the hand that feeds me or anything. I said i want a shotgun, plain and simple. Just a good suggestion for a shotgun. All that people have said are AR AR AR AR AR AR AR AR AR AR AR AR AR AR AR AR AR I dont want an AR, i want a shotgun. Had i wanted an AR, id have said recommend a good AR. But i didnt. Im well aware that theres firm disbelief in birdshot. Great. All i want to know is whats a good gun.

There is a good reason everyone suggested an AR, [I]because there is no suitable combination of lethality and low penetration in a shotgun.[/I] You wanted suggestions for a defensive weapon, and tough shit if its not the answer you wanted.

If I had the choice, I'd pick an AR or an AK for home defense. As mentioned before, they have the advantages of rapid follow-up shots, magazine capacity and (ammunition dependent) low penetration. I'd personally go with the AR, but that's just me, the reason being that I already have some level of training and familiarity with it. If you can, get advice from someone who's either law enforcement or former military, someone who knows what they're doing. Get advice on what weapon to get and how to train with it. Get direct training from them if possible. There are also schools that will happily teach you to apply your weapon in combat, for a fee. Research them first, make sure they're reputable. Bad training is worse than no training. The weapon you use matters. [I]The training you have matters equally[/I]. I cannot stress this enough. It's one thing to casually poke holes in a piece of paper, but it's something else entirely to use your weapon in earnest, against a person who has made the decision to end your life. You need to be well prepared for that moment, because you're not going to have time to think your actions through. Adrenaline and terror will force you to act the way you trained, and if your training is wanting, [B]you. Will. Die.[/B] That's all there is to it. I apologize if I'm coming off as overly-serious or melodramatic, but this shit is dead serious. [B]Do not[/B] take half-measures when it comes to keeping yourself alive. Fuck around on the range all you want, have a good time. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. Nobody can, or should, be serious 100% of the time. Just be aware of your limitations and work to overcome them. Strive to become fast and comfortable with your weapon. Remember that slow is smooth, smooth is fast, and speed is the efficiency of motion. Practice every task that goes into fighting with that weapon. Magazine changes, correcting malfunctions, the different firing positions, movement, everything. You need to be able to do it all fluidly and without thinking, because you're sure as hell not going to have time to work it out while there's a meth-head bum-rushing you with a rusty knife. Oh, and stay away from bayonets. They might look cool and intimidating, but that's all they're good for for 99% of us. If you have to, just smash his teeth in with the muzzle.

[QUOTE=ricky23;49373571] a bullet, even something that could have "very little energy after drywall" could also very easily go through glass, which is pretty much what id be aiming at, which has the interstate behind it. [/QUOTE] Depends on the glass and the bullet; Auto glass is a standard barrier test, and usually destroys or seriously destabilizes small bullets The only 5.56/.223 round I know of that meets FBI standards through autoglass is Trophy Bonded Bear Claw. Those rounds (the 55gr & the 62gr version) were what Dr Roberts indicated were the only rounds that would penetrate Auto glass and still meet FBI 12" miniumum requirement. [editline]23rd December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=ricky23;49373701] I said i want a shotgun, plain and simple. Just a good suggestion for a shotgun. [/QUOTE] Mossberg 500 In the famous words of Joe Biden, "Buy a shotgun".

[QUOTE=Psychokitten;49373751]If I had the choice, I'd pick an AR or an AK for home defense. As mentioned before, they have the advantages of rapid follow-up shots, magazine capacity and (ammunition dependent) low penetration. I'd personally go with the AR, but that's just me, the reason being that I already have some level of training and familiarity with it. If you can, get advice from someone who's either law enforcement or former military, someone who knows what they're doing. Get advice on what weapon to get and how to train with it. Get direct training from them if possible. There are also schools that will happily teach you to apply your weapon in combat, for a fee. Research them first, make sure they're reputable. Bad training is worse than no training. The weapon you use matters. [I]The training you have matters equally[/I]. I cannot stress this enough. It's one thing to casually poke holes in a piece of paper, but it's something else entirely to use your weapon in earnest, against a person who has made the decision to end your life. You need to be well prepared for that moment, because you're not going to have time to think your actions through. Adrenaline and terror will force you to act the way you trained, and if your training is wanting, [B]you. Will. Die.[/B] That's all there is to it. I apologize if I'm coming off as overly-serious or melodramatic, but this shit is dead serious. [B]Do not[/B] take half-measures when it comes to keeping yourself alive. Fuck around on the range all you want, have a good time. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. Nobody can, or should, be serious 100% of the time. Just be aware of your limitations and work to overcome them. Strive to become fast and comfortable with your weapon. Remember that slow is smooth, smooth is fast, and speed is the efficiency of motion. Practice every task that goes into fighting with that weapon. Magazine changes, correcting malfunctions, the different firing positions, movement, everything. You need to be able to do it all fluidly and without thinking, because you're sure as hell not going to have time to work it out while there's a meth-head bum-rushing you with a rusty knife. Oh, and stay away from bayonets. They might look cool and intimidating, but that's all they're good for for 99% of us. If you have to, just smash his teeth in with the muzzle.[/QUOTE] Those sound like some good ideas. One of my moms childhood friends is actually ex law enforcement. Ill have to talk to her. [QUOTE=download;49373744] You wanted suggestions for a defensive weapon, and tough shit if its not the answer you wanted.[/QUOTE] No I wanted suggestions for a shotgun used for defense. Tough shit if you cant read. Sorry for coming off as a self consumed douche, but some people on here are trying to push their opinions for reasons that are not important to me. [QUOTE=MAC21500;49373766]Depends on the glass and the bullet; Auto glass is a standard barrier test, and usually destroys or seriously destabilizes small bullets The only 5.56/.223 round I know of that meets FBI standards through autoglass is Trophy Bonded Bear Claw. Those rounds (the 55gr & the 62gr version) were what Dr Roberts indicated were the only rounds that would penetrate Auto glass and still meet FBI 12" miniumum requirement. [editline]23rd December 2015[/editline] Mossberg 500 In the famous words of Joe Biden, "Buy a shotgun".[/QUOTE] Not exactly sure if the front windows are plate glass or tempered. Building was constructed ~30 years ago? Windows are approx 3x5-6 feet.

[QUOTE=ricky23;49373794]Sorry for coming off as a self consumed douche, but some people on here are trying to push their opinions for reasons that are not important to me.[/QUOTE] If a large number of people are all telling you the same thing, chances are they're telling it to you for a reason. I get that a semi-automatic rifle may not fit your individual situation, but just be aware that shotguns have severe limitations. The military phased pump/bolt/lever action weapons out of general applications a long time ago for a number of reasons. Most of these reasons have been discussed already.

[QUOTE=ricky23;49373794]Those sound like some good ideas. One of my moms childhood friends is actually ex law enforcement. Ill have to talk to her.[/QUOTE] Just as a warning, "law enforcement" and "military" are not synonymous with "knowledgeable" and "highly trained door kicker"; unless they've actually received such training or have been in a gunfight or defensive shooting, they may not know much. The LAPD for example, gets 8 hrs of firearms training; not the average across most departments, but not enough. All I'm saying is, draw your own conclusions and don't take any one person's advice as canon.

[QUOTE=MAC21500;49373831]Just as a warning, "law enforcement" and "military" are not synonymous with "knowledgeable" and "highly trained door kicker"; unless they've actually received such training or have been in a gunfight or defensive shooting, they may not know much. The LAPD for example, gets 8 hrs of firearms training; not the average across most departments, but not enough. All I'm saying is, draw your own conclusions and don't take any one person's advice as canon.[/QUOTE] That's also true. Likewise, don't ask me to train you to clear a room or how stay alive in a firefight. I'm not combat arms by trade, I'm what's known as a pog. I drive trucks. My combat training is the bare minimum, just enough to give me an idea of how little I fucking know. Infantrymen and the like receive, on average (I believe), six months of training before they're considered deployment-ready. Their basic training experience is more miserable than for other MOSs, in an effort to prepare them for the hardship they will endure. Their primary job IS combat. Better explained by FM 3-21.8, The Infantry Rifle Platoon and Squad, [QUOTE][I]"The Infantry’s primary role is close combat, which may occur in any type of mission, in any theater, or environment. Characterized by extreme violence and physiological shock, close combat is callous and unforgiving. Its dimensions are measured in minutes and meters, and its consequences are final. Close combat stresses every aspect of the physical, mental, and spiritual features of the human dimension. To this end, Infantrymen are specially selected, trained, and led."[/I][/QUOTE] Their non-coms especially are an excellent source of knowledge. There's a reason a certain percentage of Drill Sergeants are required to be combat arms, and it isn't because they're better at being assholes. EDIT: I also know what you're about to ask. "If you don't know anything about combat, where'd all that shit you posted earlier come from?" I sought knowledge. I found it. If you have the time and inclination, look for a book titled "On Combat" by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman. Some of his stuff is a debatable (in particular his stance on violent videogames, and his defense of SLA Marshall's Ratio of Fire), but overall, the man speaks sense. Everything in the book, as far as I can tell, is grounded in reality, and even the shaky stuff has valid arguments for it. It's also a lot easier to digest than the average field manual.

[QUOTE=ricky23;49373701]I was waiting for this question to come up, and i can turn it right back around. Not trying to bite the hand that feeds me or anything. I said i want a shotgun, plain and simple. Just a good suggestion for a shotgun. All that people have said are AR AR AR AR AR AR AR AR AR AR AR AR AR AR AR AR AR I dont want an AR, i want a shotgun. Had i wanted an AR, id have said recommend a good AR. But i didnt. Im well aware that theres firm disbelief in birdshot. Great. All i want to know is whats a good gun.[/QUOTE] Yea but heres the thing bud; you don't go into a car racing thread and ask for suggestions on a moped you can take to the drag strip to beat crotch rockets, and not expect people to suggest something less retarded. Birdshot against people is seriously fucking stupid under any situation, unless you're intending to just piss someone off instead of kill or deter them. If you want a shotgun, then fine, go buy a shotgun. But if you use 00 buck and kill someone across the street because of you're stupidity, or you're unable to deter an attacker because you use birdshot, then thats all on you bud. [editline]23rd December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=ricky23;49373571]Its not "home" defense persay, its more business defense. Being in a business park lands me smack dab in the middle of lots of people. [/quote] Irrelevant. Birdshot is just as ineffective down a hallway at home as it is in a showroom for your business. [QUOTE=ricky23;49373571] When you say birdshot wont put someone in "shock", i think thats bs. Its not 5, its not 10, its not 50, but over 400 pellets. I dont care if it goes in 1/8th of an inch. thats gonna fricking hurt.[/quote] Yea, again, heres the thing. You don't want it to hurt, you want it to kill, and thats not something birdshot does [b]because it doesnt have the penetration and it doesnt cause the trauma it needs to to kill someone or incapacitate them.[/b] We aren't experts on this subject, but I've personally studied this extensively and I guarantee if you go talk to a trauma doctor at an ER, they'll tell you that handgun and rifle wounds are harder to save people from than birdshot wounds. [QUOTE=ricky23;49373571] Also keep in mind this is point blank. Zero distance between the end of the barrel and their chest.[/quote] Bullshit. And even if that was the case, birdshot is still garbage compared to near anything else. It's called [b][i]bird[/i][/b]shot for a reason dood. It's mean specifically for birds and near nothing else. Buckshot and slugs work great on people because deer require the near same extent of trauma to drop them as people do, birds don't. Thats why you use hundreds of useless pellets. And what are you going to use? Some 30 inch barrel shotgun with a tight choke for point blank home defense. Good luck with that [QUOTE=ricky23;49373571] In this video, the guy uses 1/8th inch leather and then denim. It blows right through said materials and then STILL penetrates 3.5 inches. The average human is ~9 inches thick. [/quote] It doesn't blow through consistently and again, it won't penetrate bone, which again, is important for causing necessary trauma to kill someone. It also doesn't have the velocity to cause wound canals large enough to put someone into hydrostatic shock. [QUOTE=ricky23;49373571] So basically, even through clothing thats way thicker than what an average person wears, its still going to hit your organs. Its going to hit your bones, its gonna rip up meat and muscle, its gonna rip up veins, its gonna tear into your lungs and cause you to drown in your own blood preeeetty quick. [/quote] Nope. Again, no doesn't have the velocity or weight to cause extensive enough wound canals to actually incapacitate or kill someone [b]consistently and effectively[/b]. [QUOTE=ricky23;49373571] sure it wont break bones, it wont create MASSIVE holes in people, but it will create hundreds upon hundreds of little holes that will bleed profusely and knock you on your ass.[/quote] It will create a few dozen tiny useless holes that will only piss someone off. You don't want to piss an attacker off, you want to kill them. And thats the point here. I've said it before and I'll say it again; why would you recklessly put yourself at risk using a useless weapon when theres nothing stopping you from using something more effective. This is pure stupidity dood. [QUOTE=ricky23;49373571] Yeah, i understand slugs/buckshot, or even the combination shells would be great, but i dont want to risk putting innocent lives in danger. [/quote] So use an 5.56 caliber rifle or a handgun. [QUOTE=ricky23;49373571] not even to mention that around me, i have a park, a very busy street about 1000 feet away, and an interstate 1000 feet away on the other side. So use a 5.56 caliber rifle or a handgun. [QUOTE=ricky23;49373571] a bullet, even something that could have "very little energy after drywall" could also very easily go through glass, which is pretty much what id be aiming at, which has the interstate behind it.[/quote] Use low power home defense loads. [QUOTE=ricky23;49373571] Id rather put my life slightly more "in danger" than tons of other bystanders.[/quote] Then buy a bean bag gun instead of using birdshot. That way you can at least effectively deter the attacker instead of maiming him like an asshole. [QUOTE=ricky23;49373571] Youre shitting yourself if you think someones gonna still be standing after taking birdshot to the chest. Come on man.[/QUOTE] You're shitting yourself if you think someones not going to still be standing after taking birdshot anywhere. Dick Chaney shot a man in the fucking face with birdshot and he lived to tell the tale. Seriously dood, if you don't want to listen to us, then fine, thats your own stupidity and you may end up paying the consequences for it one day. But don't come into this thread and try and argue with us on something most of us know a shit load about. If you want a cheap home defense shotgun, then anything with an 18' barrel will work. Go buy a Winchester 1200 or 1300. But keep in mind, birdshot out of a 30' barrel is useless against people, and its going to be even more useless out of a 18' barrel. [editline]23rd December 2015[/editline] Theres a reason no military on the planet uses birdshot, and I can't think of a police force that would use birdshot in their shotguns.

Ricky, I understand your frustration at not getting the answers you expected, but you didn't ask for shotgun advice, you asked for advice regarding firearms suitable for home defense, and mentioned handguns too. We're giving you that advice. Are you aware that police forces across the country have been steadily replacing shotguns in squad cars with carbines for close to twenty years? Are you aware that the military has phased out shotguns in combat roles, retaining them purely for door entry? Does it seem weird to you that SOP is for the breacher to blow the door with his shotgun, then switch to his carbine to clear the building, an environment about as well-suited to a shotgun as you can get? We're not jumping down your throat because you dare to disagree, but you're riling up the natives by repeatedly insisting on the same few untrue statements over and over again. Incredulously stating 'but nobody's going to still be standing after they get hit with birdshot!' isn't going to convince us when there is ample evidence suggesting otherwise. A few years ago a burglar in Tacoma was [URL="http://blogs.seattletimes.com/today/2012/06/would-be-burglar-shot-in-the-face/"]shot in the face[/URL] with birdshot at close range and not incapacitated. In Bahrain, police [URL="http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=01a_1338766499"]shot a teenager[/URL] with birdshot. He stays standing. Greg Ellifritz, known for [URL="http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/an-alternate-look-at-handgun-stopping-power"]his compilation of wound statistics[/URL], found that the percentage of people stopped by a single round of birdshot was under 20%- compared to over 50% for buckshot. At just fifteen feet, most birdshot [url=http://www.outdoorhub.com/stories/2015/03/18/mad-gun-science-birdshot-effective-home-defense/]can't even pierce a half inch of plywood[/url]. Notice how against ballistic gelatin the penetration is four inches at even ten feet, which based on FBI evidence means it could be stopped by a thick coat. Are you really telling us you trust your life to a firearm that at [b]ten feet[/b] might have difficulty piercing a [b]coat[/b]? Again, you seem fixated on a particular weapons platform and are relying on those kinds of 'common sense' ideas that just don't pan out in reality. I'm not an AR fanboy, I don't own an AR, but I know that for the purpose you're describing an AR is pretty much perfect and a shotgun is not. At the end of the day it's your decision, and hopefully it won't be something you ever have to use in anger, but if worst comes to worst you'll have to live with whatever consequences come from failing to incapacitate your assailant or hitting a bystander. We're not saying this to try to make fun of you or call you stupid, we're saying this to try to help you.