[QUOTE=MAC21500;49373766]Depends on the glass and the bullet; Auto glass is a standard barrier test, and usually destroys or seriously destabilizes small bullets
The only 5.56/.223 round I know of that meets FBI standards through autoglass is Trophy Bonded Bear Claw.
Those rounds (the 55gr & the 62gr version) were what Dr Roberts indicated were the only rounds that would penetrate Auto glass and still meet FBI 12" miniumum requirement.
[editline]23rd December 2015[/editline]
Mossberg 500
In the famous words of Joe Biden, "Buy a shotgun".[/QUOTE]
I dont really like mossie 500s, the wobbly foregrip just annoys the shit out of me.
Rem870>moss500
[QUOTE=Birdman101;49375637]I dont really like mossie 500s, the wobbly foregrip just annoys the shit out of me.
Rem870>moss500[/QUOTE]
I prefer the Winchester SXP over both of those myself.
I would buy a 590A1 Model#51660 if you want a robust defensive shotgun.
I only went with a 590 because I got it for like $320, significantly cheaper than normal. Even then I'm kind of regretting it because I would much rather have the metal trigger group and parkerized finish.
[QUOTE=catbarf;49374649]Ricky, I understand your frustration at not getting the answers you expected, but you didn't ask for shotgun advice, you asked for advice regarding firearms suitable for home defense, and mentioned handguns too. We're giving you that advice.
Are you aware that police forces across the country have been steadily replacing shotguns in squad cars with carbines for close to twenty years? Are you aware that the military has phased out shotguns in combat roles, retaining them purely for door entry? Does it seem weird to you that SOP is for the breacher to blow the door with his shotgun, then switch to his carbine to clear the building, an environment about as well-suited to a shotgun as you can get?
We're not jumping down your throat because you dare to disagree, but you're riling up the natives by repeatedly insisting on the same few untrue statements over and over again. Incredulously stating 'but nobody's going to still be standing after they get hit with birdshot!' isn't going to convince us when there is ample evidence suggesting otherwise. A few years ago a burglar in Tacoma was [URL="http://blogs.seattletimes.com/today/2012/06/would-be-burglar-shot-in-the-face/"]shot in the face[/URL] with birdshot at close range and not incapacitated. In Bahrain, police [URL="http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=01a_1338766499"]shot a teenager[/URL] with birdshot. He stays standing. Greg Ellifritz, known for [URL="http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/an-alternate-look-at-handgun-stopping-power"]his compilation of wound statistics[/URL], found that the percentage of people stopped by a single round of birdshot was under 20%- compared to over 50% for buckshot. At just fifteen feet, most birdshot [url=http://www.outdoorhub.com/stories/2015/03/18/mad-gun-science-birdshot-effective-home-defense/]can't even pierce a half inch of plywood[/url]. Notice how against ballistic gelatin the penetration is four inches at even ten feet, which based on FBI evidence means it could be stopped by a thick coat. Are you really telling us you trust your life to a firearm that at [b]ten feet[/b] might have difficulty piercing a [b]coat[/b]?
Again, you seem fixated on a particular weapons platform and are relying on those kinds of 'common sense' ideas that just don't pan out in reality. I'm not an AR fanboy, I don't own an AR, but I know that for the purpose you're describing an AR is pretty much perfect and a shotgun is not. At the end of the day it's your decision, and hopefully it won't be something you ever have to use in anger, but if worst comes to worst you'll have to live with whatever consequences come from failing to incapacitate your assailant or hitting a bystander. We're not saying this to try to make fun of you or call you stupid, we're saying this to try to help you.[/QUOTE]
Well said.
Personally, I hate AR's. I think they're a hilariously outdated design perpetuated only because the US firearms market runs on nostalgia instead of innovation. But I won't deny that 5.56 out of an AR, in proper loads, is extremely deadly and "safe" to use in a HD environment.
You don't have to buy an AR for home defense, theres other guns in the same caliber that can accomplish the same job, but a shotgun loaded with birdshot is not a comparable or advisable alternative to an AR.
[QUOTE=PrusseLusken;49376167][B]SXP MENTIONED!!!!!![/B]
Really though, the SXP is p. slick.
Only thing I don't like is that it doesn't have the same accessory aftermarket as the 870. Would love a new forend and a side saddle.
[/QUOTE]
Have you thought about getting a Kydex or shotgun cards with a Velcro system instead of a bulky side saddle? It's pretty light can be "reloaded" quick too.
[IMG]http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8427/7517559500_c43989b9a4_c.jpg[/IMG]
Another type: [URL="http://www.skdtac.com/Esstac-Shotgun-Card-p/ess.106.htmWelcome"]http://www.skdtac.com/Esstac-Shotgun-Card-p/ess.106.htmWelcome[/URL]
[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;49376685]Personally, I hate AR's. I think they're a hilariously outdated design perpetuated only because the US firearms market runs on nostalgia instead of innovation.[/QUOTE]
Man I sure hope you have absolutely nothing positive to say about the AKM.
I got my .22LR in the mail. Amazing.
Also I don't think Kel Tec ever even shipped my mag springs. I ordered them on the 9th and according to an automated email the entire Kel Tec facility goes on vacation from Dec 19th to Jan 4th
So I guess it must be a good company to work for but that's like two weeks off.
[QUOTE=Birdman101;49375637]I dont really like mossie 500s, the wobbly foregrip just annoys the shit out of me.
Rem870>moss500[/QUOTE]
I would normally agree, except for the fact that Remington has gone downhill, and their QC followed.
If you bought an Older Rem 870, then I'd agree.
The mossberg is still easier to fix in case of a bent/broken ejector spring.
[editline]23rd December 2015[/editline]
Looks like we have a 3rd pin...
My question is, how was this overlooked?
[url=https://blog.full30.com/iwi-ace-recall-for-possible-nfa-issues/]Galil ACE Recall for possible NFA Issues[/url]
[thumb]http://i.imgur.com/p9VAT7x.jpg[/thumb]
[QUOTE=mastermaul;49376922]Man I sure hope you have absolutely nothing positive to say about the AKM.[/QUOTE]
same shit different gun, except Bolshevism
[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;49378020]same shit different gun, except Bolshevism[/QUOTE]
So my question to you then is: what current rifle is sufficiently modern enough to necessitate the immediate replacement of the M16 family of rifles in military service? What real or imagined benefit does it have over the M16 family? Detractors?
I'm not sure if it was posted, but the inrange RDB review has been up for awhile now.
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybQRUl_iFEA[/media]
Learned a new thing about hydro dipped guns. Don't get your cleaner on it unless you want to strip it of said hydro dip. This mossberg was short lived.
[QUOTE=MAC21500;49378140]So my question to you then is: what current rifle is sufficiently modern enough to necessitate the immediate replacement of the M16 family of rifles in military service? What real or imagined benefit does it have over the M16 family? Detractors?[/QUOTE]
None. Theres not a firearm out there that has enough proven advantages within reasonable cost to replace millions of rifles. I'm specifically talking about the civilian market. The only reason the AR-15 is so big in it is because it's been used by the US military.
Like I said, the American firearms market runs on nostalgia, not innovation. Thats why guns like the 1911 still dominate the market despite being proven unreliable garbage.
[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;49378888]None. Theres not a firearm out there that has enough proven advantages within reasonable cost to replace millions of rifles. I'm specifically talking about the civilian market. The only reason the AR-15 is so big in it is because it's been used by the US military.
Like I said, the American firearms market runs on nostalgia, not innovation. Thats why guns like the 1911 still dominate the market despite being proven unreliable garbage.[/QUOTE]
My sergeant was a prior CSO and said 1911s were garbage when they started training with them before they went to afghanistan.
[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;49378888]None. Theres not a firearm out there that has enough proven advantages within reasonable cost to replace millions of rifles. I'm specifically talking about the civilian market. The only reason the AR-15 is so big in it is because it's been used by the US military.
Like I said, the American firearms market runs on nostalgia, not innovation. Thats why guns like the 1911 still dominate the market despite being proven unreliable garbage.[/QUOTE]
No, they really aren't.
So, i'm looking to buy a Sig P226 (handgun). Problem is, i'm only 20. Now in my state (Oregon), private sales now require the gun to be transferred to a federally licensed for background checks. Even though the store itself isn't selling me the gun, does that still mean I need to be 21?
I suspected all along the malfunctions I was experiencing with my Kel-Tec was a weak magazine spring and it turns out it's exactly that. Check this is out. On the top is a brand new mag spring from Kel-Tec and below it is my stock spring.
[t]https://i.gyazo.com/b57e81d106334b3ddd20c761ffc57ed7.jpg[/t]
Now as you can see the stock spring is smaller than the new one. The stock spring stuck out maybe an inch and a half before you stuck the mag cap back on. The new one is probably sticking out three-four inches. Once the new one is installed it you could feel the followers actually had some real resistance behind them.
Not to mention if you took my two stock springs side by side (which were already smaller and weaker) one of them was an inch shorter. Which made it even worse.
Now here is the biggest question that I think everyone will be asking as well as myself;
Did I get lemon/early design springs or did my springs compress?
I got my shotgun brand new in September 2015 and since day one I kept both tubes fully loaded and next to my desk figuring it was my new home defense shotgun. Since I was experiencing several malfunctions from day one I can't even remember if I was getting weak feeding from the tubes and I didn't fix enough of my malfunctions to even notice the weak feeding until late October/Early November.
I plan on emailing Kel-Tec after they get back to the office (They're closed from Dec 19th - Jan 4th) and showing them this picture, asking what they think caused the weak spring to become compressed/leave the factory like it was and ask if they'll refund me my $40 I spent on the replacement springs since I should not have had to replace these damn things and they're ridiculously overpriced and apparently shitty quality. It's bad enough I had to replace one of those feeding ramp pieces in the stock which was like $30 and spend time and money to polish and hone my chamber so I could actually eject shells but now I gotta go through all this misery over my magazine springs compressing. I've never had a shotgun spring actually compress on me, I've had my Mossberg 500 for over five years fully loaded and never had a malfunction or noticed the springs getting weaker. Why should my $1,000 Kel Tec? And if it turns out this is an early production or lemon part than I can't even imagine how it went out like this.
I love the KSG as a concept but holy damn I don't think I'll ever buy a Kel-Tec weapon again. My first instinct when I had these issues was to send it back to the factory but after calling, waiting hours and than leaving a message and getting called back the next day only to be told I needed to provide "proof" I'm the original owner I decided to just fix it myself. I didn't get around to calling Kel-Tec until sometime in October and had long lost my receipt so I had no proof. I bought this gun brand new and I think it's kind of telling that they need 'proof' now probably because they can't afford or can't keep up to the high volume of guns being sent back to repair.
[QUOTE=Episode;49380879]So, i'm looking to buy a Sig P226 (handgun). Problem is, i'm only 20. Now in my state (Oregon), private sales now require the gun to be transferred to a federally licensed for background checks. Even though the store itself isn't selling me the gun, does that still mean I need to be 21?[/QUOTE]
If you are buying from another individual, yes you still have to be 21.
[QUOTE=PrusseLusken;49381450]Springs don't get permanently compressed unless they're not actually springs.
I'd wager you just got an early type and/or improperly tempered/made.
[editline]24th December 2015[/editline]
shame that kel-tec is such a shitty company because their ideas are nice
i really want a PMR-30 but AFAIK there have been sold zero keltec guns ever in Norway[/QUOTE]
Springs certainly will eventually slacken and compress if they are constantly bearing pressure. How long that takes is dependent on how well made it is. My C96's springs finally needed replacement after just over a century of service because they were getting weak and causing malfunctions.
[QUOTE=GunFox;49380802]No, they really aren't.[/QUOTE]
Are you responding to the fact that 1911's are complete trash, or the fact that the US civilian market is run by people with rose colored glasses?
[editline]24th December 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Episode;49380879]So, i'm looking to buy a Sig P226 (handgun). Problem is, i'm only 20. Now in my state (Oregon), private sales now require the gun to be transferred to a federally licensed for background checks. Even though the store itself isn't selling me the gun, does that still mean I need to be 21?[/QUOTE]
If it's going through a federal transfer then yes, you'll need to be 21. Read up on the laws in your state, because a lot of states basically allow straw sales if it's being purchased by a parent as a gift for their child (so long as the child is 18+)
springs don't permanently compress but they do fatigue
Pushing them beyond their design limits is what usually kills springs.
[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;49382352]Are you responding to the fact that 1911's are complete trash, or the fact that the US civilian market is run by people with rose colored glasses?
[/QUOTE]
1911's are excellent for what they are. Aside from their low capacity, there really isn't a whole lot to criticize there. Their weight perhaps, though that does generally do a decent job of reducing felt recoil.
I own a fair number of handguns, and have shot orders of magnitude more, and I'm still rather fond of my 1911.
What I was always told was, like Prusse said, storing springs under load or not doesn't weaken them, but cycling them does (constantly loading/unloading a magazine).
[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;49378888]None. Theres not a firearm out there that has enough proven advantages within reasonable cost to replace millions of rifles. I'm specifically talking about the civilian market. The only reason the AR-15 is so big in it is because it's been used by the US military.
Like I said, the American firearms market runs on nostalgia, not innovation. Thats why guns like the 1911 still dominate the market despite being proven unreliable garbage.[/QUOTE]
Idk dude 1911s are pretty good guns aside from having small magazines. Where was it proven that they're unreliable garbage? A troll thread on /k/ ?
The two problems with the 1911 platform as I understand it are:
- Steep, blunt feed ramps can cause problems with out of spec ammunition or anything other than ball or ball-shaped hollowpoints
- Magazine feed lips are thin and can eventually bend open, causing double feeds
Good guns as long as you take these things into account.
you don't want to shoot out of spec ammo anyway
anything with steel or aluminum magazines is prone to this
Cyke is just a cheap gun hating special snowflake
Also, parents went big and bought me a gunsafe for Christmas.
Same type as this, except a dark grey/black finish.
[img]http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41qTk2LmibL.jpg[/img]
Was a surprise, came home from work and BAM. There it was. Taking up a ton of space in my room so I'm gonna have to doe some rearranging next day I'm off. It was my next big purchase, guess I can move on to an AR now :v: Nice surprise, though.
Electronic lock like in the picture?
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