[QUOTE=Pelvic Thrust;36361883]That's not very nice
What problem do you have with people who like to get the most out of their music?[/QUOTE]
Nothing. If people want to spend their entire life savings on a pair of fancy speakers, power to 'em. They keep the economy running.
External soundcards are also good to mention, often pretty cheap.
[QUOTE=Pelvic Thrust;36361883]That's not very nice
What problem do you have with people who like to get the most out of their music?[/QUOTE]
if you're disgusted when you have to use something less than lossless then you don't know much about audio.
Integrated audio is hit-or-miss. Some sound clean, others sound like absolute shit. It depends entirely on whether the people who did the board layout had any idea what they were doing.
If you get get a board with bad integrated audio, then you should use a dedicated card. If the integrated sounds OK to you, then just use the integrated.
High-end dedicated cards have other uses, though. Since they tend to have excessively high bandwidth, they're good for software defined radio and such.
I use an intergrated sound card and have no problems with it. I've never used a dedicated one before though so I have nothing to compare it to. I imagine I would notice the difference if I compared them, but I am happy in my ignorance.
[QUOTE=Gmod4ever;36350259]Out of curiosity, how many people here are audiophiles? Put another way, how many of you are disgusted when forced to use a non-FLAC alternative and downright refuse to listen to anything less than 320kbps? And how many of you have high-quality and expensive Sennheisers? :v:
Myself, I use old Yamaha speakers from 2000. Sound quality isn't that big a concern to me. :v:[/QUOTE]
Reporting in.
I generally don't have much issue with 256kbps+, though I do prefer lossless when I can get it. My headphones are just okay (Turtle Beach HPA2 5.1), but my desktop speakers are Adam Audio A5's, so lesser-quality MP3's can often distort at higher volumes.
As for the OP itself, I've heard some good onboard chipsets but a good dedicated card will blow any onboard out of the water, without question.
[editline]17th June 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=woolio1;36363327]Nothing. If people want to spend their entire life savings on a pair of fancy speakers, power to 'em. They keep the economy running.[/QUOTE]
A great pair of desktop speakers will cost you less than $1000 so I don't know what you're on about. Just save up for them.
let's use some actual logic and ask ourselves: why would the sound be different?
unless you have shitty DAC's on your board, which makes the debate more about individual boards rather than a general onboard vs dedicated, there's [b]zero possible ways for the sound to vary[/b]. digital sound is the same in and out.
[QUOTE=Lazor;36328781]if you want a dedicated soundcard just get an external DAC instead[/QUOTE]
This, the only reason people still use dedicated sound cards is because the Digital to analog conversion is better.
Dedicated sound cards were originally made for more than just better DAC, they also offloaded precious CPU utilization by doing the processing of sound on the sound card. But these days a modern CPU is so powerful that it doesn't make a difference, and no modern games even support using the sound processor on a sound card over the CPU.
So because the only pro the sound card still has is the better DAC, why not just buy an External DAC? The benefit to an external DAC is it doesn't require drivers (Sound card makers have to make sound drivers, and we all know drivers can get outdated or not work on newer OS's)
[QUOTE=thisispain;36375294]let's use some actual logic and ask ourselves: why would the sound be different?
unless you have shitty DAC's on your board, which makes the debate more about individual boards rather than a general onboard vs dedicated, there's [b]zero possible ways for the sound to vary[/b]. digital sound is the same in and out.[/QUOTE]
Depends on the signal path after the DAC (as well as the quality of the DAC as you say) proximity to any power lines on the motherboard will add interference (depending how well shielded the analogue lines are, which considering they usually run out through the motherboard is not at all)
I think it makes a difference, but you really need high-end equipment and not some shitty logitech get-up. I wasn't able to tell the difference with my pc speakers, or my ATH-m50s, but with 900 dollar bookshelf speakers, yes, I was able to hear a difference. Even then, I wouldn't exactly call it a day and night difference.
So... Any suggestions on sound cards? I might get one soon to fix some static on my integrated sound.
Also, why is your avatar a penis?
[QUOTE=woolio1;36388302]So... Any suggestions on sound cards? I might get one soon to fix some static on my integrated sound.
Also, why is your avatar a penis?[/QUOTE]
Asus Xonar_DG
Asus Xonar_STX
[editline]18th June 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Lamar;36387745]I think it makes a difference, but you really need high-end equipment and not some shitty logitech get-up. I wasn't able to tell the difference with my pc speakers, or my ATH-m50s, but with 900 dollar bookshelf speakers, yes, I was able to hear a difference. Even then, I wouldn't exactly call it a day and night difference.[/QUOTE]
Even a cheap card, as long as it has a headphone amp, can make a night and day difference with cheap $20 sony cans
[editline]18th June 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=thisispain;36375294]let's use some actual logic and ask ourselves: why would the sound be different?
unless you have shitty DAC's on your board, which makes the debate more about individual boards rather than a general onboard vs dedicated, there's [b]zero possible ways for the sound to vary[/b]. digital sound is the same in and out.[/QUOTE]
That is the biggest load of fucking bullshit I have ever heard
[QUOTE=Pelvic Thrust;36390711]That is the biggest load of fucking bullshit I have ever heard[/QUOTE]
Actually he's kinda right. The sound output should not be different at all between cards if they used the same source. But because some obviously have better components they can recreate the analogue wave much better. Capable of outputting higher frequencies and amplitudes, etc. It's kinda how digital anything works.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;36390799]Actually he's kinda right. The sound output should not be different at all between cards if they used the same source. But because some obviously have better components they can recreate the analogue wave much better. Capable of outputting higher frequencies and amplitudes, etc. It's kinda how digital anything works.[/QUOTE]
The onboard ALC889 on my P8P67 Deluxe ($224 consumer board) gets spanked by a $30 Xonar DG
[QUOTE=Pelvic Thrust;36390711]
That is the biggest load of fucking bullshit I have ever heard[/QUOTE]
uh okay
doesn't change the fact that you are dealing with 0 and 1's which unless modified by computer error (IE if your motherboard is malfunctioning) will always be the exact same.
on a logic level every single piece of information is binary information. the music you get via the internet is already sampled into a file of 0's and 1's. when the instruction to process the information is sent to your sound-card or sound-chip there's no actual audio, it's all digital information and every time the computer processes something a strict system of [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Error_checking]error checking[/url] occurs.
so since the computer processes the digital information and unless the computer malfunctions which causes a break-down and zero information becomes processed, the audio regardless of where it is processed will be 100% the same when it hits the DAC. same thing with a monitor, the digital information is 100% the same when it hits the monitor's DAC.
now at the DAC level you can argue that there's a difference, but in that case buy a sample clock and you'll fix any DAC issues.
[QUOTE=Pelvic Thrust;36390711]Asus Xonar_DG
Asus Xonar_STX
[editline]18th June 2012[/editline]
Even a cheap card, as long as it has a headphone amp, can make a night and day difference with cheap $20 sony cans
[editline]18th June 2012[/editline]
That is the biggest load of fucking bullshit I have ever heard[/QUOTE]
Thanks... What's the sound difference between the DG and STX, and what are the hardware differences between?
[editline]19th June 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=thisispain;36390944]uh okay
doesn't change the fact that you are dealing with 0 and 1's which unless modified by computer error (IE if your motherboard is malfunctioning) will always be the exact same.
on a logic level every single piece of information is binary information. the music you get via the internet is already sampled into a file of 0's and 1's. when the instruction to process the information is sent to your sound-card or sound-chip there's no actual audio, it's all digital information and every time the computer processes something a strict system of [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Error_checking]error checking[/url] occurs.
so since the computer processes the digital information and unless the computer malfunctions which causes a break-down and zero information becomes processed, the audio regardless of where it is processed will be 100% the same when it hits the DAC. same thing with a monitor, the digital information is 100% the same when it hits the monitor's DAC.
now at the DAC level you can argue that there's a difference, but in that case buy a sample clock and you'll fix any DAC issues.[/QUOTE]
So... What causes static on certain integrated chips? Or is that a different thing?
that's just interference from the board
[QUOTE=woolio1;36390953]Thanks... What's the sound difference between the DG and STX, and what are the hardware differences between?
[editline]19th June 2012[/editline]
So... What causes static on certain integrated chips? Or is that a different thing?[/QUOTE]
STX is higher quality and has some extra features
STX also has up to 192 khz but there's no need to go higher than 44.1khz since that's what CD's use.
DG probably has about the same sound quality (plus a PCM out) and costs way less, I would recommend the DG.
[QUOTE=Lazor;36391023]that's just interference from the board[/QUOTE]
So a dedicated card would fix that?
[editline]19th June 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Pelvic Thrust;36391029]STX is higher quality and has some extra features
STX also has up to 192 khz but there's no need to go higher than 44.1khz since that's what CD's use.
DG probably has about the same sound quality (plus a PCM out) and costs way less, I would recommend the DG.[/QUOTE]
Alright, $23 is a good price.
[QUOTE=woolio1;36391063]So a dedicated card would fix that?[/QUOTE]
perhaps. from what i've heard you can still get interference problems with a dedicated card. a USB DAC is your best bet for avoiding it.
[editline]18th June 2012[/editline]
honestly it'll probably be fine whatever it is you do
[QUOTE=thisispain;36390944]uh okay
doesn't change the fact that you are dealing with 0 and 1's which unless modified by computer error (IE if your motherboard is malfunctioning) will always be the exact same.
on a logic level every single piece of information is binary information. the music you get via the internet is already sampled into a file of 0's and 1's. when the instruction to process the information is sent to your sound-card or sound-chip there's no actual audio, it's all digital information and every time the computer processes something a strict system of [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Error_checking]error checking[/url] occurs.
so since the computer processes the digital information and unless the computer malfunctions which causes a break-down and zero information becomes processed, the audio regardless of where it is processed will be 100% the same when it hits the DAC. same thing with a monitor, the digital information is 100% the same when it hits the monitor's DAC.
now at the DAC level you can argue that there's a difference, but in that case buy a sample clock and you'll fix any DAC issues.[/QUOTE]
ok son go get an intel ac97 board and hook it up to a good reciever and see what comes out
Honestly the only difference between the dedicated card and the onboard one is the way it eliminates interference. The onboard card produces very audible noise when doing anything on the computer. It could just be the shielding on the rear motherboard port, but my front case port has the same issue. The noise isn't so much an issue when playing games or listening to music, but it does get annoying when browsing the web.
Besides that, there's no audible difference as far as I can tell. The only reason I bought the sound card is because of the extra ports on the card.
[QUOTE=Edthefirst;36391207]Honestly the only difference between the dedicated card and the onboard one is the way it eliminates interference. The onboard card produces very audible noise when doing anything on the computer. It could just be the shielding on the rear motherboard port, but my front case port has the same issue. The noise isn't so much an issue when playing games or listening to music, but it does get annoying when browsing the web.
Besides that, there's no audible difference as far as I can tell. The only reason I bought the sound card is because of the extra ports on the card.[/QUOTE]
What kind of setup are you using?
Let me guess, it's an ASRock board? I've got a similar issue.
[QUOTE=Orkel;36326990]I switched from an integrated to a real soundcard about one year ago, and the difference in quality was clear as day.[/QUOTE]
This. Went from shitty integrated sound to the [URL="http://www.asus.com/Multimedia/Audio_Cards/Xonar_Essence_STX/"]Xonar STX[/URL]. The difference is truly night and day if you have an ear for audio and proper equipment to listen to it. Makes a massive difference in gaming too. I've been thinking of buying one of the high end Creatives purely for gaming, and using the STX for my audio needs.
How is this even a debate? The numbers and facts are already there and have been for years; there's isn't a debate about which is better at all in terms of actual audio quality.
[QUOTE=Pelvic Thrust;36391265]What kind of setup are you using?[/QUOTE]
Right now I've got a midrange akg headphone running through a tiny tiny amp. I've got a set of polk bookshelf speakers and a tall loudspeaker on the way. I'm strapped for cash right now, so I'm buying stuff in waves.
I'll admit, I've not got the setup that will really exacerbate any differences in quality (yet). I'll eventually get a solid enough set-up to maybe notice anything.
[QUOTE=Pelvic Thrust;36391118]ok son go get an intel ac97 board and hook it up to a good reciever and see what comes out[/QUOTE]
how about you prove the difference instead of assuring me there is one?
i know my computers and anyone who understands how audio is processed by computers would know that it makes no difference.
[QUOTE=Edthefirst;36391560]Right now I've got a midrange akg headphone running through a tiny tiny amp. I've got a set of polk bookshelf speakers and a tall loudspeaker on the way. I'm strapped for cash right now, so I'm buying stuff in waves.
I'll admit, I've not got the setup that will really exacerbate any differences in quality (yet). I'll eventually get a solid enough set-up to maybe notice anything.[/QUOTE]
Last year the HTX-22HDX was down to $150 new, back up to its retail $250 now though
[url]http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-HTX-22HDX-Ultra-Compact-Theater-System/dp/B003BEDQRQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312846410&sr=8-1[/url]
Really good 2.1 for the price, reciever is loaded too.
[editline]18th June 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=thisispain;36391668]how about you prove the difference instead of assuring me there is one?
i know my computers and anyone who understands how audio is processed by computers would know that it makes no difference.[/QUOTE]
"1's and 0's guys 1's and 0's im ready to be hired by C-Media"
[QUOTE=thisispain;36391668]how about you prove the difference instead of assuring me there is one?
i know my computers and anyone who understands how audio is processed by computers would know that it makes no difference.[/QUOTE]
You're assuming, I believe, a perfect scenario, free of imperfections or anomalies in the board itself. As we know, however, that isn't the case. There is a difference merely because you're offloading the audio processing onto dedicated, purpose-built hardware. Sure, it may be all ones and zeroes, but that doesn't mean it's incorruptible by electromagnetic forces.
[QUOTE=woolio1;36391790]You're assuming, I believe, a perfect scenario, free of imperfections or anomalies in the board itself. As we know, however, that isn't the case. There is a difference merely because you're offloading the audio processing onto dedicated, purpose-built hardware. Sure, it may be all ones and zeroes, but that doesn't mean it's incorruptible by electromagnetic forces.[/QUOTE]
any corruption of binary information within a song doesn't result in reduced quality, it results in zero information which constitutes a drop-out. this doesn't happen anyway because the computer does strict error-checking.
we're talking about digital information. it's why HDMI cables can't change the quality of your video on a TV, but analogue cables can. in analogue there's a possibility for modification of the signal, in digital there's no such thing.
off-loading audio processing doesn't change the audio quality, it simply changes the location of processing. if you believed this you'd also have to believe that there's a difference between an nVidia and ATI card when it comes to graphical output, and that there's a difference between an AMD and an Intel CPU when it comes to calculations.
when a computer is functioning it will ALWAYS give you 1+1=2. this principle is transcendent across graphics cards and CPU's.
and if there's an anomaly on a board that affects a calculation the board is broke and probably won't boot or function at all.
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