It's Just Cosmetic (The Jimquisition) - General

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52988409]Do you know how long that is? Saying "in nearly 5,000 hours you'll unlock everything" is a horrible excuse[/QUOTE] Someone should do the math on that because I'm almost certain it's way more than that.

[QUOTE=UntouchedShadow;52987757]Hold on, his argument is that cosmetics do affect gameplay because people care about the way they look in game? No, that makes no fucking sense. Maybe if a cosmetic makes you run 50% faster, or gives you 50% more damage absorption or some shit then yeah, skins would affect gameplay. But if a cosmetic has effects and abilities attached to it, then it's not just cosmetic because it has a purpose beyond making you look cool. Am I misunderstanding what point he's trying to make?[/QUOTE] The reward is part of the game and in many cases cosmetics are the reward, maybe even the [I]sole[/I] reward in the case of Overwatch. That's usually fine as a design decision but not when the sole reward is a random chance which you can pay extra cash to access.

[QUOTE=Lime-alicious;52988349]but in overwatch you can get every skin for free if you play long enough.[/QUOTE] Sure, but how long is "long enough"? That's also not even relevant to the argument brought up in the post you quoted. Xion's post wasn't complaining about buying skins or saying it's bad to sell skins. They're saying that having the only way to buy skins be randomized, without giving players the ability to buy the specific skins that they want outright is ridiculous and manipulative.

[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;52987854]There's another aspect to this he didn't touch on in the video I don't think but it's how the mere presence of cosmetics can alter the focus of a game, both for the players and the developers. There's no better example than Overwatch, a game which constantly shoves loot boxes down your throat. The presence of cosmetics alters the focus in a subtle but noticeable way which I think has an impact on the community as a whole. Every time you win you get xp, every time you level up you get a loot box, every time you get a loot box you get skins and let's be honest all anyone gives a half shit about is legendaries. The XP bar itself goes up very very slowly after a certain point yet always at a rate that makes you feel like just a couple games more and you'll get another loot box. Or, alternatively, play the arcade. If you win 9 times, that's 3 bonus loot boxes a week plus any loot boxes you pick up along the way. Sounds great, but the problem is that people start playing to get skins rather than to have fun. They constantly feel like they're on the verge of more loot boxes, so why stop now when just ONE more game could get you a loot box? And since you get less XP if you lose, people get [I]very[/I] annoyed when they lose because they just want the fuckin box already. And if this happens multiple times, they get angry, and they start yelling at other players that they feel are holding them back from the next loot box. It's even worse in the arcade, where the game modes are somewhat intentionally unbalanced. The loot box incentives make people play whether or not they even want to because they only have a week to get those three, yet one can burn several hours just trying to get 9 victories. It's made to feel like it should take 30 minutes and sometimes it does but it could literally take all day if you're unlucky enough. So people are playing the game in general and ESPECIALLY arcade not because they really genuinely want to but because they want more skins. Which gets amplified even more during the holiday events that dominate the game's design. This results in a lot of very grumpy people who don't even want to be there and are ready to lash out at whoever prevents them from getting the next box. And if you think you're immune to this, you might be, but that doesn't mean everyone you're playing with is. I believe the loot box system and how it's pushed on players, EVEN THOUGH IT'S JUST COSMETIC, is a big part of why people act so toxic. Then there's the design, Overwatch's design process is fucking abysmal. You get a new hero or a new maps [I]sometimes[/I] but overall it seems like everything takes a backseat to holiday events. Sure, new game modes get added, but overall the events they're so focused on are mostly just an excuse to dump limited time skins to force people to play to get as many as they can or just pay up. And meanwhile, big parts of the game that need addressing like the god awful design of most maps (especially older ones) are just forgotten about because "we need more cosmetics and events". Even though it's just cosmetic, even though these don't give you any advantage during gameplay (minus the sitting emotes which are exploitable for a gameplay advantage), it feels like the entire experience is tainted by them anyway, from design to just playing it as a regular person.[/QUOTE] I think you've made a great point here. The whole landscape of multiplayer games has changed. As has been said already, I also used to play MP games for years with no difference other than custom content, and it was great. There was literally no incentive to play other than it was fucking fun. Now everything has changed, the majority of people seem to only be interested in playing MP games for an outside incentive, like levels or loot boxes. Anything that is not optimal just gets forgotten. All complaints and discussions about the game revolve around how useful anything is at achieving those incentives. All of these things are a constant mental wear on me. You literally can't ignore it. The devs and other players will not let you. I feel like the toothpaste is out of the tube and there's no way back.

If cosmetics aren't important to gameplay, why do people spend hours in World Of Warcraft re-running old content trying to get gear drops that would be completely useless at their current level, just to unlock them in the appearance collection window? Why would they spend gold transmogrifying their current gear to look like those older sets? surely they should be happy with whatever mismatched clown-suit they are currently wearing- after all it's just cosmetic! it doesn't boost their stats at all! Why are certain rare mount drops so coveted when they travel at the exact same speed as the original level low poly 70 flying mounts? Why is it considered so desirable to own items that were made unobtainable in subsequent expansions- despite them having terrible stats compared to new gear? It's just cosmetic right? they should totally vendor that shit. Why do Hunters spend even literal days tracking rare beasts down, sometimes making daring ventures into enemy territory or jumping through ridiculous hoops in pursuit of a more interesting companion, when the default pet they are given at the start of the game has almost identical functionality? It's almost like "looking cool" is a huge part of online games! I'm a more casual Wow player and when I do subscribe to the game I'm way more excited when I add a cool looking item to my collection than I am when I get something that actually improves my stats.

[QUOTE=Zadrave;52988465]Someone should do the math on that because I'm almost certain it's way more than that.[/QUOTE] Legend has it that the knight from the end of The Last Crusade is still playing overwatch to this very day.

Now that we've acknowledged that player's ability to express themselves through established fashion contributes to a game's overall enjoyment despite not being part of the core functional gameplay loop, we should get back to discussing their method of distribution. [QUOTE=Philly c;52988767]I think you've made a great point here. The whole landscape of multiplayer games has changed. As has been said already, I also used to play MP games for years with no difference other than custom content, and it was great. There was literally no incentive to play other than it was fucking fun. Now everything has changed, the majority of people seem to only be interested in playing MP games for an outside incentive, like levels or loot boxes. Anything that is not optimal just gets forgotten. All complaints and discussions about the game revolve around how useful anything is at achieving those incentives. All of these things are a constant mental wear on me. You literally can't ignore it. The devs and other players will not let you. I feel like the toothpaste is out of the tube and there's no way back.[/QUOTE] Shift in design and consumer behavior perhaps? Now that games are always designed to be littered with positive reinforcements and consumers continuing to misjudge game's length for content or quality, it is easy to see where games are generally heading. Intrinsic motivators are greatly diminished when every other game apply tangible incentives and gratification as hooks.

My question would be is that how would you consider earning it? Random drops that happen now matter what for playing matches(ALA Titanfall 2) or through level progression? [editline]19th December 2017[/editline] Like what would be considered a properly made DLC? What would be considered Post Launch Content? How should games be funded after they release and after the bulk of sales(that 1 to 3 day period after launch) be made? Should F2P games die?

I think I've got a broad understanding of what he means now. Frankly I think lootboxes are absolute shite because of what a manipulative business practice they are, but really I think the supposed effect skins have on gameplay varies. I can see ways it affects gameplay in something like WoW (fulgrim gave good examples), but not in something like TF2 or Overwatch. Although as I write this I ponder further, and light reasons do come to mind. Shitty, but I get the idea... Personally I feel it's easiest to just not buy lootboxes or skins.

[QUOTE=Zadrave;52988465]Someone should do the math on that because I'm almost certain it's way more than that.[/QUOTE] considering people did the maths and worked out there wasn't actually enough hours in the day to unlock all the event skins within the event period, I imagine it'll be a good long time

[QUOTE=Fancy Godgineer;52987100]Overwatch also used to reset your XP required for level up after each prestige you hit so you could technically get up to 20 "easy" lootboxes from events if you stopped playing just before you prestige and wait for the upcoming event to start. Blizzard didn't like that because it made the playerbase dip before and after an event. And also reduced the number of people who buy early lootboxes. What Overwatch does is as predatory as any other game with similar systems and you'd have to be naive to not see it like that.[/QUOTE] I mean any system that encourages you not to play the game is pretty garbage

[QUOTE=Kljunas;52989133]I mean any system that encourages you not to play the game is pretty garbage[/QUOTE] That system tries to reward those who hit prestige but inadvertently got exploited to flash farm event items. Having players holding out until events hurt the player count during off season. I wouldn't call THEM the predatory one.

[QUOTE=Lime-alicious;52987609]If there wasn't DLC that $60 game would be $100[/QUOTE] Please provide a source for that, otherwise I'm going to believe you to be talking out of your ass. Especially since those big companies are evading taxes to [del]hell[/del][URL="https://thecorrespondent.com/6942/bermuda-guess-again-turns-out-holland-is-the-tax-haven-of-choice-for-us-companies/417639737658-b85252de"]Holland and back[/URL]

[QUOTE=Lime-alicious;52988349]but in overwatch you can get every skin for free if you play long enough.[/QUOTE] Not really, because of events. You could play nonstop during the whole event and still come out not having everything. Alternatively you'd have to spend $100-200 (wildly varying on luck) into boxes to get everything from [I]that event only[/I]. For me who doesn't have that kind of time or money it's a really shit deal. The chances of getting [I]just one thing[/I] that I want is incredibly small due to randomness. All for an extortionate system to get me pay for boxes.

[QUOTE=Talishmar;52989405]Not really, because of events. You could play nonstop during the whole event and still come out not having everything. Alternatively you'd have to spend $100-200 (wildly varying on luck) into boxes to get everything from [I]that event only[/I]. For me who doesn't have that kind of time or money it's a really shit deal. The chances of getting [I]just one thing[/I] that I want is incredibly small due to randomness. All for an extortionate system to get me pay for boxes.[/QUOTE] Not to mention they shit out like a billion new sprays, voice lines, and icons so that you have to acquire all those before the nonduplicate pool gets small enough to allow you to get the good shit

[QUOTE=Simplemac3;52987922]i'm not contesting your entire post but I just had to nitpick this, Halo 2 had a 20$ map pack that would probably be considered absurd by modern standards.[/QUOTE] A $20 reusable buy-once install-infinitely disc, rather. Just pool your money with your mates, buy one copy, install it to all of your Xboxes and no problems. If you wanted to be a real shit, you could even return it afterwards for a full refund (Unless you're in America). Not even comparable to normal map packs. [editline]e[/editline] Also worth noting that the DLCs contained on the disc were already free downloads for people with Xbox Live, the disc was just an option for LAN gamers who didn't pay for online play.

[QUOTE=RichyZ;52988641]whats hilarious is siege has like, every type of monetization ya got purchasable dlc skin packs (shown in the image), season passes, premium character skins, loot boxes (thankfully cannot be purchased with real money, but do contain cosmetics exclusive to lootboxes), ingame currency boosters, you name it[/QUOTE] That's the one thing that really bugs me about that game, because otherwise I really like it.

[QUOTE=Lime-alicious;52988219]If they just turned off lootboxes, booster packs, skins, and any other micro-transaction across all blizzard games do you honestly think they wouldn't lose a massive amount of money?[/QUOTE] At least for Overwatch, I've seen in a video that lootbox sales are pretty low. I mean that the profit from lootboxes is lower than microtransactions from other Blizzard and Activision games.

[QUOTE=RocketRacer;52989454]At least for Overwatch, I've seen in a video that lootbox sales are pretty low. I mean that the profit from lootboxes is lower than microtransactions from other Blizzard and Activision games.[/QUOTE] I find that really hard to believe. Maybe lower in the scale of Blizzbux which is fucking tremendous piles of cash from World of Warcraft and their other games. Overwatch and Hearthstone end up turning Streamers into whales either because fans want to see EPIC 1000 CARD PACK/LOOT BOX OPENING!!! or the streamers just make so much disgustingly fat money from donations they don't give a fuck if they spend $200 a week on lootboxes and hearthstone. People who don't even play the game donate money to streamers who just put that money right into Blizzard's games just as one example.

[QUOTE=SunsetTable;52988928]My question would be is that how would you consider earning it? Random drops that happen now matter what for playing matches(ALA Titanfall 2) or through level progression? [editline]19th December 2017[/editline] Like what would be considered a properly made DLC? What would be considered Post Launch Content? How should games be funded after they release and after the bulk of sales(that 1 to 3 day period after launch) be made? Should F2P games die?[/QUOTE] Honestly just non-lootbox, non-gameplay-altering microtransactions. Once upon a time, asking for normal microtransactions would have been blasphemy, but that's where we're at now. Hoping for the old greedy tactics instead of the shittier greedy tactics that are becoming way too common (feeding on gambling tendencies). League of Legends has survived F2P for 8 years off skins alone. And you can even pick the skin you want!!!

[QUOTE=RocketRacer;52989454]At least for Overwatch, I've seen in a video that lootbox sales are pretty low. I mean that the profit from lootboxes is lower than microtransactions from other Blizzard and Activision games.[/QUOTE] Not to mention on just a regular sub and the $60 tag for the current version of the game alone, Blizzard has made tens of BILLIONS of dollars since launch. That's not even mentioning people that buy every version at full price and the extremely expensive cash shop that's on top of all that. I think a max level booster is like $60 right now and your average mount on their shop is $25. Add that to the extremely successful Diablo and Starcraft series' and previous Warcraft titles, as well as Hearthstone and HotS, and any number of other things they have their hands in. Even before becoming Activision-Blizzard, saying "wouldn't they lose a bunch of money" is a fuckin' hilarious and absolute horseshit argument, turning off loot boxes for companies like ActBliz and EA is like a tycoon shutting down their lemonade stand. It doesn't effect them one bit in the long run and iirc EA CEO McEvilfuck has said about as much himself.

I agree with most of what he said. Yet I fear a future where games don't have any gambling element period.

[QUOTE=Secrios;52999514]I agree with most of what he said. Yet I fear a future where games don't have any gambling element period.[/QUOTE] There's nothing to really worry at all, games these days will still make boatloads from sheer Studio or Game brand recognition alone. ( See Grand Theft Auto V and Overwatch ) They can also bank off good word of mouth, and even new added content like Expansions or DLC. The heads of these big studios or publishers can cry up to poor, but there's [URL="https://www.pcgamesn.com/overwatch/overwatch-sales-numbers"]no denying the millions[/URL] [URL="http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/09/20/gta-5-sales-hit-1-billion-in-three-days"]if not Billions[/URL] that they are making. Gaming today is more popular than it once was pre-2010's, that games in example will sell millions in just 1 day alone. Don't worry for these companies, they will still be here tomorrow, ready to generate more games and money printers.

[QUOTE=kill3r;52987133]Yup, and it's a drug addicts fault they feel the need to buy drugs[/QUOTE] It is, actually, their fault to get hooked. There are no ifs or buts about it. Its like complaining it is companies/ fault for you getting hooked on smoking cigs. [editline]23rd December 2017[/editline] However, I would kill for games to regulate this gambling shit. I would want countries to require a "turn off all cosmetics" buttons or modes which would entirely leave you out of cosmetic store and cosmetic's exposure. Imagine like with casinos how you can ask them to ban you so you would never be able to visit it again. Unfortunately, we are a loooooong way off that. Im pretty sure if that requirement was set, then the players using such mode would get a very limited experience or being locked out from something crucial to your game experience because you are not using cosmetics.

[QUOTE=Blind Lulu;52994463]You could play Overwatch every day for the rest of your life and likely not get every skin.[/QUOTE] I do have every skin except for newest event skins, thanks to events repeating (and my job being seasonal :v:).

[QUOTE=Lime-alicious;52987501]Games are way more expensive to make nowadays. Especially for professional studios. If they offer a shit load of optional content that doesn't affect gameplay so I don't have to pay over $100 for the game then it's fine by me.[/QUOTE] its proven that games have been getting cheaper to make every year. Game companies are putting less and less money in every year and getting more and more money back. [t]https://i.imgur.com/mlTTTpU.png[/t] source: [video=youtube;SFKnv1YzI3k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFKnv1YzI3k[/video]

[QUOTE=Wii60;53000418]its proven that games have been getting cheaper to make every year. Game companies are putting less and less money in every year and getting more and more money back. [t]https://i.imgur.com/mlTTTpU.png[/t][/QUOTE] This is not quite true as game output per year has decreased, in turn total expenses are divided among lesser titles, meaning each game cost more to make. (even mentioned in the video that companies are pumping out less games) Activision Blizzard isn't a good model example as most of their games are extremely popular. Nonetheless, they definitely don't need MTX to survive but they sure as hell ain't gonna let those sweet revenue go to waste.