Fight Against English - General

[QUOTE=Scyze;23221646]edit: maybe there is no point ed: maybe the point is that we are all going to die[/QUOTE] You must be a poet. [QUOTE=Xen Tricks;23221692]Authors will, and always have been allowed to, utilize language in unique and new ways. If they didn't, they would be pretty bad authors.[/QUOTE] This isn't true. Do you read small press media? The experimental styles in those genres are stright out refused by mainstream publishers.

[QUOTE=Christy;23221744]You must be a poet. This isn't true. Do you read small press media? The experimental styles in those genres are stright out refused by mainstream publishers.[/QUOTE] Maybe because they're shit writers and their "experimental" styles are badly written. Or maybe it's because no one would buy it and publishers run a business. Or maybe it's one of a hundred other reasons besides your stupid rant about "experimental writers getting ignored/oppressed for their style" And you still haven't commented on e.e. cummings. What was he, if not well known and experimental? EDIT: Also who cares if it's published mainstream, there's nothing wrong with small imprints. It's certainly the same in music, ~80% of my music isn't released on shit like Astrelwerks but some solo label or small effort. It doesn't matter cause it's still good art. So stop bitching about the mainstream denying them, because i'm fine with most of my music never getting mainstream appeal and the same should go for literature.

[QUOTE=Xen Tricks;23221783]EDIT: Also who cares if it's published mainstream, there's nothing wrong with small imprints. It's certainly the same in music, ~80% of my music isn't released on shit like Astrelwerks but some solo label or small effort. It doesn't matter cause it's still good art. So stop bitching about the mainstream denying them, because i'm fine with most of my music never getting mainstream appeal and the same should go for literature.[/QUOTE] My argument wasn't made to mainstream industries, but to the indie ones. There is an inferiority complex in the culture and this is one of the subjects of contention. [QUOTE=Xen Tricks;23221783]And you still haven't commented on e.e. cummings. What was he, if not well known and experimental?[/QUOTE] Sorry, I didn't see that. I'm not saying it is impossible. I'm saying (mostly directed to the readers, not the writers) that language needs to be seen as a malleable tool in literature. I'm just talking about a paradigm shift, not a war on mainstream induatries.

[QUOTE=Christy;23221874]My argument wasn't made to mainstream industries, but to the indie ones. There is an inferiority complex in the culture and this is one of the subjects of contention. Sorry, I didn't see that. I'm not saying it is impossible. I'm saying (mostly directed to the readers, not the writers) that language needs to be seen as a malleable tool in literature. I'm just talking about a paradigm shift, not a war on mainstream induatries.[/QUOTE] That's more fair, but seemingly a different point than you were making. And why is there inferiority about this in the indie publishing world, what's wrong with the free use of expression how you see fit? And the paradigm shift you're talking about (ironic we're talking about artistic use of language and using a corporate buzzword), how should the attitude towards the malleability of language change, and what readers are we talking about here. It seems this form of art would appeal to the sort that would like it already, trying to get joe schmoe to appreciate free grammatical conventions and other unusual uses of languages seems to be a rather futile endeavor.

[QUOTE=Christy;23221384] It is more complicated than evolved pictographs, it is history and culture. [/QUOTE] Ex 1: I disagree with you and here's why... Response: "Conformist" Ex. 2: u r dum Response: "Oh, so cultural!" Uhhhh....no.

I see now that the intended audience I was writing to wasn't mentioned and so this whole thing has gotten a bit out of context and confusing. [QUOTE=Xen Tricks;23221942]And why is there inferiority about this in the indie publishing world, what's wrong with the free use of expression how you see fit?[/QUOTE] Because even though 'indie' is such an exciting word, few people want to remain indie. Many come into the scene after being rejected by big industries, not because their work is poor but because the style is seen as inaccessible to the audience. Everyone is stepping over themselves to shed this "underground" title that means invisibility in the market. [QUOTE=Xen Tricks;23221942]And the paradigm shift you're talking about (ironic we're talking about artistic use of language and using a corporate buzzword), how should the attitude towards the malleability of language change, and what readers are we talking about here. It seems this form of art would appeal to the sort that would like it already, trying to get joe schmoe to appreciate free grammatical conventions and other unusual uses of languages seems to be a rather futile endeavor.[/QUOTE] My tangent is to the readers because the indie writing scene cannot sustain itself on it's current audience. It needs converts from the mainstream and those mainstream readers are wary of and quickly reject anything that doesn't meet with what they have bee conditioned to believe is quality.

Actually, thanks to the internet, anyone can get there messages out, even meaningless ones like yours, OP. You use ridiculous scare tactics such as comparing us to pedophiles victims; what the fuck is that? Also, how about A Clockwork Orange? An exercise in experimentation with language that produced an amazing novel.

[QUOTE=Christy;23222150]I see now that the intended audience I was writing to wasn't mentioned and so this whole thing has gotten a bit out of context and confusing. Because even though 'indie' is such an exciting word, few people want to remain indie. Many come into the scene after being rejected by big industries, not because their work is poor but because the style is seen as inaccessible to the audience. Everyone is stepping over themselves to shed this "underground" title that means invisibility in the market. My tangent is to the readers because the indie writing scene cannot sustain itself on it's current audience. It needs converts from the mainstream and those mainstream readers are wary of and quickly reject anything that doesn't meet with what they have bee conditioned to believe is quality.[/QUOTE] But you want to bee condition them to what you believe is quality instead. People decide what they like, they can't really be forced to like a new style. The unsuitability is due in part to the niche element that the writing brings with it and there's not really much they can do to shed that besides write elsewise, because their style will most likely never be seen as the mainstream. Back to my music point, I KNOW a lot of what I listen to will never be mainstream, and the artists know that as well. The Incapacitants aren't putting out albums as a sustainable lifestyle, they're putting them out because they love doing what they do. It's not going to be different with literary artists, if they want a job that can sustain them, they need to write to a more mainstream demand, if they want true artistic expression, they need to write to their own demands. Sadly, as you've said, it often doesn't overlap, but there's nothing you can really do.

i belive that ppl can spel whatever they wnt

[QUOTE=Xen Tricks;23222210]But you want to bee condition them to what you believe is quality instead.[/QUOTE] I don't want a change in power here, I just want the little guy to get a chance. I am so frustrated arguing with people over whether a given book is good or not based on the language and style used.

[QUOTE=Christy;23222267]I don't want a change in power here, I just want the little guy to get a chance. I am so frustrated arguing with people over whether a given book is good or not based on the language and style used.[/QUOTE] It's all about personal opinion. Language style is a legitimate reason to not like a book, just like art direction or filming style is a justified reason to not like a movie or TV show.

[QUOTE=Christy;23222267]I don't want a change in power here, I just want the little guy to get a chance. I am so frustrated arguing with people over whether a given book is good or not based on the language and style used.[/QUOTE] But they got their chance, and they used it to make what they believed was good. What style is good is different to each person, that's my point. You can't make a person thing that a certain style is good, and you can't make them succeed. They will almost never have mainstream success as long as they write in an experimental fashion, that's the reason it's the mainstream. EDIT: Also stop replying to a portion of my post, I make a point as a coherent whole, most all of it was applicable to your concerns.

[QUOTE=Bassplaya7;23222297]It's all about personal opinion. Language style is a legitimate reason to not like a book, just like art direction or filming style is a justified reason to not like a movie or TV show.[/QUOTE] Is it enough to disregard something you otherwise liked? [QUOTE=Xen Tricks]But they got their chance, and they used it to make what they believed was good. What style is good is different to each person, that's my point. You can't make a person thing that a certain style is good, and you can't make them succeed. They will almost never have mainstream success as long as they write in an experimental fashion, that's the reason it's the mainstream.[/QUOTE] I agree with this [QUOTE=Xen Tricks]EDIT: Also stop replying to a portion of my post, I make a point as a coherent whole, most all of it was applicable to your concerns.[/QUOTE] I agreed with the things I didn't address.

Well, all I can really say is that just because your writing style and mechanics might be easy for you to understand, it doesn't necessarily mean the same may apply to others that read your literature.

[QUOTE=Christy;23222326]Is it enough to disregard something you otherwise liked? I agree with this I agreed with the things I didn't address.[/QUOTE] Ah, well ok then. Anyways, my point is made, people like what they like and not much will change that. Your concern is a somewhat valid one, but sadly futile at the same time. :yoshi:

show me ur boobs christy

[QUOTE=Christy;23222326]Is it enough to disregard something you otherwise liked?[/QUOTE] If a person has a big enough problem with the style that they will completely disregard a book, movie, show, etc, they would have otherwise liked, then it's their loss. There is no obligation from anyone else to change their mind; it's up to each individual person to decide if the style bothers them that much.

[QUOTE=Napoleon I;23222473]show me ur boobs christy[/QUOTE]

Main reason we like everything to be all correct is so that we can actually, y'know, read it. it's no use trying to read something that says 'n vn jd wzg zmbihfd'

well christy? where are the boobs?

Dude 420 fuck the system the system is trying to limit your expression using works 420 dude hell ya fuck the system they are trying to control you fuck the mainstream In all seriousness no one is stopping you from making a book filled with the letter "a". No one is limiting your expression except yourself, unless you happen to live in North Korea. Stupid thread.

[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;23221455]Uuh what are you talking about, planet can be easily defined: A celestial body with sufficient mass to be rounded, insufficient mass to undergo nuclear fusion, and orbiting a star or stellar remnant e.g. white dwarf.[/QUOTE] If that where true then we would have ten or so more planets in the Solar System. There are plenty of round asteroids in the Keiper Belt.

I guess the world is full of prescriptivists. Hoorah for a-level English term.

If no changes were ever made to english we would still be speaking old english where our nouns would have 3 genders, our verbs would have 4 cases, and questions would have to be posed in the Verb-Subject-Object form. Slang words stop being slang once everybody uses them. Given enough time, regional dialects actually become completely new languages. Grammar Nazis are fighting a losing battle.

If you can't take the time to use proper English, I don't care for your opinion, simple as that. A magnificent book in text speak is still shit because it's in text speak. If they wrote it in real English, I'd give the time of day.

I like how people who cannot speak English think their little 3rd world language is all that and should be the global standard..

Language is, first and foremost, a form of communication. Forms of communication are useless if they aren't good for communicating. Mistakes make communication difficult to understand.

[QUOTE=Christy;23221384]Does bad spelling really take something away from something that would otherwise be visionary?[/QUOTE] Yes. [QUOTE=Christy;23221384]Hakim Bey said, "If rulers refuse to consider poems as crimes, then someone must commit crimes that serve the function of poetry, or texts that possess the resonance of terrorism." What would incite more terror into someone than a blatant disregard for the English language? “This asshole is so crazy he didn’t have time to spell check!”[/QUOTE] Crazy? He'd seem like an idiot, that is all. [QUOTE=Christy;23221384]I’ve said this a million times before but I’ll say it again... Literature is (not even debatably) a form of art. Why is it that it is the only form that has to meet a mainstream industry’s standards before it is allowed (allowed by even the PUBLIC) to become viable? More than that, it must meet this modern ideal of acceptable formal language.[/QUOTE] Because writing is done to communicate, and communication relies on the receiver understanding what the heck you are saying. Even something as minor as a typo (or a complicated word - it's a fact that most famous/praised writers do not have a very complicated language) will divert brain power away from actually understanding the message. [QUOTE=Christy;23221384] A painter can make a mistake in a painting and it somehow becomes more of a respectable art piece but if a writer makes a typo it renders their book unreadable.[/QUOTE] What "mistake" in a painting can you point us to that has actually made a picture more famous? Also, paintings are a wholly different method of communication in which it is usually not clear what each stroke actually means. With paintings, the receiver has a lot more freedom in trying to make out what is actually being communicated. [QUOTE=Christy;23221384]Language is one of those amazing things that we think we all understand but can’t really define (like the word “planet.”)[/QUOTE] [I]A [B]planet[/B] (from Greek πλανήτης, alternative form of πλάνης "wanderer") is a celestial body orbiting a star or stellar remnant that is massive enough to be rounded by its own gravity, is not massive enough to cause thermonuclear fusion, and has cleared its neighbouring region of planetesimals.[/I] From wikipedia. I think it's a pretty clear definition. You're talking out of your ass, and you're trying to sound like you have a higher understanding of human communication than you really do. [QUOTE=Christy;23221384]It is more complicated than evolved pictographs, it is history and culture. It’s a spiritual expression and noise pollution. The way a person speaks and write says so much about them, so why do we suppress the potential it can have in literature? The grammatical mistakes and regional slang are a part of the story being written just as much as the story arc. Losing these qualities in editing is losing a part of the story teller’s voice and vision.[/QUOTE] Inventing words is fine. Slang is fine. Even (intentional) grammatical "mistakes" are fine. The point is, that they must convey some information in a way that is better than through the already established language. Tolkien invented words. Old books have old language, and we read them in that language because it will convey the thoughts of the author better than a modern translation. What if you're listening to an audio book, and the story teller starts choking for no reason in the middle of a chapter? Shouldn't they have edited that part away? They should, because it takes away from the experience. [QUOTE=Christy;23221384]Controlling language is the surest and quickest way to control people. People far smarter and eloquent than I have written books on this matter but it can be summed up fairly easily: Humans use language in their thought process more so than other animals who tend to think in pictures. Language is also the primary venue humans use to externally express internal concepts and concerns. To let businesses, and even society itself, tell us what the correct use of language is not only controls our free speech but also our personal thoughts.[/QUOTE] You don't want [I]society[/I] to tell you about the correct use of language? How, then, are you going to communicate? [QUOTE=Christy;23221384]Literature should be the art form that combats this oppression! Every time you judge a piece of literature on this Webster’s Dictionary standard we have all been groomed (like the pray of a pedophile) to hold you might as well be buying IKEA furniture.[/QUOTE] You can already express almost anything in words. u don hav 2 expres dem in bedly speled werds. [QUOTE=Christy;23221384]Society has given us a box of words and rules and we have to construct it to their instructions or we nullify the warranty.[/QUOTE] Yes, that is in fact exactly how communication works. What's the alternative? edit: tl;dr OP is a total asshat who wants to be a unique snowflake

[img]http://www.charliehiphop.com/files/chhpics/UK_Royal_Coat_of_Arms.png[/img][img]http://ifihadahammer.co.uk/images/gooball_union_flag_fluttering_in_breeze.png[/img]No screw you English all the way.

[QUOTE=iusehax;23225994][img]http://www.charliehiphop.com/files/chhpics/UK_Royal_Coat_of_Arms.png[/img][img_thumb]http://ifihadahammer.co.uk/images/gooball_union_flag_fluttering_in_breeze.png[/img_thumb]No screw you English all the way.[/QUOTE] Not only did you not read the thread in your rush to make a stupid joke, you used the single largest picture you could find.