Corruption in Gaming Journalism Discussion V2 - Back from the dead!
5,003 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Snake7;47204014]Now, getting to my "civil" problems with GamerGate there are 2 basic issues:
1. Focusing on the wrong issues.
I'll be the first to say there are indeed problems with video games Journalism. Mainly the "incentive" for large publications to give triple A titles good reviews. There are so many things on the large scale in the industry that could be talked about (another being the terrible treatment of workers and interns in large companies). However, GamerGate usually focuses on small "Indie devs" and writers that have a niche audience (such as Leigh Alexander).
[/quote]
GG is currently focused on gawker and its underpaid interns, quite a few know about underpaid, overworked developers, namely ones at ubisoft being forced to release games on a yearly basis and I think that this is regarded as a self-correcting issue.
If the job is shit and the games that come of it are shit then there's not going to be a market for them, the awful faces in unity, the broken stuff in FC4, the glitches, bugs and all that are actually deal-breakers for almost everyone. Fighting that kind of stuff by telling all your friends not to buy those games simply doesn't get as much publicity.
[QUOTE=Snake7;47204014]In addition to most of these allegations being false or simply without merit, it's very like focusing on a Tree when there's a whole forest next to it. Or rather trying to cut down a small sapling while there are giant redwoods all around that they don't want to touch because cutting them down would be too difficult.
[/quote]
"most of these allegations being false" is pretty broad. I'll try to think of the biggest points that people have issues with. The IGF racketeering(1), the positive coverage by nathan grayson(2) are all documented and proven.
Anita Sarkeesian being a con artist is guaranteed as well and you don't even need to pull up any sources to prove it, the series was scheduled to be finished in December of 2012.
Anita using feminism as a handwave excuse without caring a bit for it or 'not being a real feminist' is likewise something you sort of pick up but thankfully I can source it because she helped create a book about how to pick up women where it objectifies them. (3)
1. [url]http://gamesnosh.com/fez-investors-outed-judges-2011-igf-award/[/url]
2. [url]http://wiki.gamergate.me/index.php?title=Nathan_Grayson[/url]
3. [url]http://guardianlv.com/2014/11/anita-sarkeesian-unmasked-feminist-icon-or-con-artist/[/url] ( see point [10] )
[QUOTE=Snake7;47204014]
2. Polarized Political Views
Perhaps I'd take GG more seriously if it at least claimed to be politically neutral and only wanting to get rid of corruption. But simple looking at how common the phrase SJW is used proves this false. "Social Justice Warrior" is a buzzword created by the political right to quickly discredit their ideological opposition. It is similar to "Political Correctness" and "Feminazi" (a word actually created be right wind talk show host Rush Limbaugh).[/quote]
SJW is just how they refer to themselves, it's not co-opted from the right or anything like that it's co-opted from those who co-opted it from the right.
Political correctness, eh, I'll concede it.
But not "feminazi". Whenever someone says "feminazi" they get a dumb and like 9 disagrees, someone else says "stop" to them and gets like 12 agrees. It happens really rarely now.
[QUOTE=Snake7;47204014]
As someone who supports feminist idea's and Trans and Racial equality etc. why would I support a movement who seems to downplay there importance at every turn?[/quote]
We've got a lot in common here, why not join the side where we have #notyourshield POC, lgbtaq? You could help by telling anti-gg "Why would I support a movement like AGG who seems to downplay the importance of lgbtqa and POC at every turn?"
[QUOTE=Snake7;47204014]
As someone who thinks that mediums such as video games CAN effect how people think or even act[/quote]
No.
[QUOTE=Snake7;47204014](why else would companies spend billions on advertising every year)[/quote]
To bring awareness to their product and place it above other products.
[QUOTE=Snake7;47204014]video games like every other art form should have a feminist critique why would I support I movement that has one of it's main goals be to eradicate such criticisms?[/QUOTE]
Anita already eradicated her criticism of her own free will by stopping her video series, journalists telling everyone gamers love rape aren't really feminists.
[editline]24th February 2015[/editline]
Fuck off with your ninja enormous well-constructed replies, mine's just as good :'(
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;47198618]There's one major game where if someone said "this game is sexist and terrible because of it" most pro-GG people would actually agree with them.
Metroid Other M.
Unfortunately I NEVER see it brought up by people talking about sexism in video games, hell the only person who I've seen mention it is the violently anti-GG MovieBob and he DEFENDED it.
I think that one problem that pro-GG has with so called "feminists" is that gaming is ALREADY improving in terms of better written female characters in games and females in the industry. The people doing the most to work against it are Anita Sarkeesian (by stirring up shit and attacking games that don't deserve it, including games that are actually trying to have good female characters, and games that actually moved their relative series forward with their female roles like Zelda: OOT), and other people and sources that consider themselves "feminists" but are only scaring and driving women away from gaming by grossly exaggerating the amount of misogyny in the gaming industry and in gaming culture.
The worst enemy to women in gaming are people who claim they're the ones for it and everyone else is against it.[/QUOTE]
two pages late with this but
egoraptor is also super feminist, says metroid other m is his [b]favorite metroid game.[/b]
there's a way, ive found, to gauge how fucked up someone is by their opinion. for example, if you find someone that defends other m or says it's the best metroid game, or whatever other shit, do some digging and you'll find out they're really fucked up. this has seriously never failed for me, please try it.
[quote]
But I also think that the whole Corruption in Games has started as a cover to specifically target Zoe Quinn. [/quote]
Categorically false, while this series of events started a re-interpretation of long standing issues, the issues which [I]created[/I] the incident known as gamergate started in very late 1980s, and has very very VERY clear and transparent trial of payola, bias and nepotism. Go look up print articles and magazine staff from the 90s, and [B]see where these people are employed now[/B], and their twitters views of #gamergate.
As for Quinn's incident, she has a history of falsely accusing fellow employees of sexual harassment and [I]rape[/I] on a serial basis, it's why she was blacklisted from the Pr0n industry and ended up in "gaming" to begin with, she's also been accused of theft, and making unwanted sexual advances of her own. Whether people hated her for those things or not is actually immaterial, because she never became a legitimized scapegoat; she was never fired from anything for her [I]alleged[/I] actions, and two rather prominent bloggers have [I]factually[/I] contradicted her conversation claims as to the incident in question, including her purposeful amending of her own text conversations, aka lying. Her "exile" in europe was a planned trip she undertook before the controversy ever started, and the logistical proof of her booking said trip is again public record.
[quote]Now, getting to my "civil" problems with GamerGate there are 2 basic issues:
1. Focusing on the wrong issues.
(such as Leigh Alexander). [/quote]
Alexander does not have a "niche audience", Alexander is the EaL/EiC of four media outlets, two of which [B]directly cover game design for the western side of planet earth[/B] and [I]jobs within the industry and how to acquire them[/I], and the other two of which over multinational electronic and print venues [I]around the world[/I]. That is the direct opposite of niche.
Devs and publishers are just as complicit as journalists, and this thread has made statement of exactly those things, including directly naming some of those companies: Intel, EA, Ubisoft, BioWare, Riot Games, GearBox, et al. It's a multifaceted issue and it's not going to go away overnight, if ever. Because human greed and tribalism are pretty universal and recurrent.
"Social Justice Warrior" is a term created in the early 2000s by militant liberal inclusivists.
[quote] seriously [...][/quote]
All of this is categorically false, and can be countered literally by reading this and this thread only.
#gamergate is a hashtag; no more, no less.
I suggest you watch some videos from this man before proceeding further and then perhaps you might want to re-evaluate your suppositions being painted with so broadly a brush.
[URL]https://www.youtube.com/user/EventStatus[/URL]
BOOM rational debate.
And then Snake7 was never heard from again
[sp]i would be pretty bitter if this actually happened[/sp]
[QUOTE=Ryo Ohki;47204274]
[B][citation needed][/B]
And I'd appreciate if said citation didn't involve what some random person said on twitter
[/QUOTE]
Since you said not a random person on Twitter and then posted what Anitia said on twitter I'll assume the most popular outspoken gamergate advocates are fair game.
First of all [url]https://8ch.net/[/url] is often considered THE gamergate website. And there most popular board is /pol/ a place that is too bigoted for even 4chan. This isn't just an isolated part of the site, it bleeds over to all other boards Example almost every thread in /fem/ has at least 1 post about how women are gold digging sluts.
Now on to some individuals.
Milo Yiannopoulos in his article on Breitbart (a heavily right leanig site) in which he focus incessantly on speculation of Brianna Wu being Transgender and saying he will on refer to her as "she" only as polite courtesy. [url]http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/02/13/the-wacky-world-of-wu-the-tortured-history-of-gamergates-self-styled-feminist-martyr/[/url]
Hotwheels advocated for eugenics in his articular in the Daily Stormer (basically a neonazi site)
[url]http://www.dailystormer.com/hotwheels-why-i-support-eugenics/[/url]
Internet Aristocrats Video's (his channel was taken down by himself) spoke for themselves, almost always being filled with sexism, racist, trans-phobia under the week premise of criticizing tumblr. In fact he took his channel down after a video of a guest on his gamer gate stream (king of /pol/) went on a holocaust denial rant. (also he fucked his GF during this stream but that's beside the point)
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1wUlNEHwko[/url]
Davis Aurini who attempted to make an anit-Anita Documentary has said he considers himself a white nationalist "on paper"
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsdIHK8O5yo[/url]
Even Total Biscuit one of the most popular GG supporters has recently tried to derail an article on Trans rights to make it about himself.
[url]https://storify.com/excelsiorlef/a-day-in-the-life-of-totalbiscuit[/url]
Now you might say "these people don't represent GG!" But then how can you say that anything a person against GG says represents all "Anti GG"
[QUOTE=Thlis;47204056]Have you actually read what the opposition claims is their "feminist ideals"? It includes outright lying about history and articles on "How a game didn't tell the player the difference between kissing and killing".[/QUOTE]
Under this line of logic I could claim the GG ideals are straight up Nazism.
I would be more bitter if Snake7 complained their views were being dogpiled and never addressed any of the points made.
EDIT: Or did the typical AGG thing of either widening the goalposts or focusing upon one issue in minute detail while ignoring the other, many valid points raised.
[QUOTE=WhyNott;47204645]And then Snake7 was never heard from again
[sp]i would be pretty bitter if this actually happened[/sp][/QUOTE]
That's the part that pisses me off the most. Please show up again Snake7, it only makes you look worse if you don't.
EDIT: Oh God fucking dammit. Of course I should refresh before posting.
[QUOTE=WhyNott;47204645]And then Snake7 was never heard from again
[sp]i would be pretty bitter if this actually happened[/sp][/QUOTE]
Imo if they read the counter-arguments and don't try to argue then they have lost the argument. However, I hope that snake7 responds to these criticisms of his argument and can present his own point of views towards them. Otherwise, it's another "hit and run" post.
I would like to post my points to but they would basically just be echoing the above posts, little to add on.
[editline]a[/editline]
[B]He responded the last post last page[/B]
Hi guys, I'd like to remind you that snake7 actually responded
thankyou
[QUOTE=Snake7;47204677]
Under this line of logic I could claim the GG ideals are straight up Nazism.[/QUOTE]
How exactly?
Also every single point you have made is just attacking people's character, not the actual revolt.
I mean ask anyone on KIA or 8ch about KOP or IA and they will probably shit on them for being dumb.
Quite frankly you are asking that a movement never has a person associate with them if they have been, currently are, or ever will be disagreeable in any way.
I mean by this logic AGG is a rape apologists/conspirators group because Chris Kluwe agrees with them.
[QUOTE=Thlis;47204758]How exactly?
Also every single point you have made is just attacking people's character, not the actual revolt.[/QUOTE]
Which is the exact same thing he accused GG of doing.
Just asking you Snake7, please respond to other arguments then cherry picking the dumbest/easy ones please! They did ALL of yours, please do, at the very least, the main ones of theirs!
Personally I don't want another situation where the guy debating only answers questions he can answer easily without challenging himself, making himself look like a dolt in the process, getting dumbed and then saying "You guys are an echo chamber!"
P.S to other people : This is what happens every debate we have, people start responding to his second post about the point he [I]can [/I]argue and then will continue on that point alone : keep hammering the harder points in the original post - otherwise he will weed out those he can easily argue against. Debating 101!
[QUOTE=Snake7;47204677]words[/QUOTE]
Most of the criticisms I read about GG are about its individual supporters; how they are just nasty people and all that. But I don't often hear criticism about GG's basic beliefs: more ethics in game journo (and less SJW hypocrisy on the side). They all go after how one or two dudes said a dumb thing, possibly even unrelated to the conversation... One, someone with one or more moral failings doesn't necessarily make all of their arguments wrong. Two, that person could probably be trolling or his opinion misconstrued by the media.
It's the same in the other direction, too. That's why when someone posts something like "this journo is a slut! what a shitty person!" I tend not to care, but when it's "this journo is a slut [i]with gamedevs[/i]!" it becomes a GG topic and I pay attention. That's just an example, but you get the idea.
Also, "GG supporter" is a lot less defined than "journalist". I don't accept the parallel between someone like Hotwheels and Kuchera. The difference is that journalists have an official obligation to be professional, whereas the only thing GG supporters share in common is an opinion.
Also also, uncle /pol/ is pretty bad on both sites pretty equally. I'm sure some people here commonly come across the phrase "/pol/-tier shitposting".
[QUOTE=Thlis;47204758]How exactly?
Also every single point you have made is just attacking people's character, not the actual revolt.
I mean ask anyone on KIA or 8ch about KOP or IA and they will probably shit on them for being dumb.
Quite frankly you are asking that a movement never has a person associate with them if they have been, currently are, or will ever be disagreeable in any way.
I mean by this logic AGG is a rape apologists/conspirators group because Chris Kluwe agrees with them.[/QUOTE]
I'd like to point out in response to my first post people included "attacks on the character" of Anita and Leigh and the article about Kissing Vs Killing (A dumb article I admit.)
I responded with some unflattering quotes by pro-GG. It's worth noting that most of these are truly vile opinions I'd say more than "disagreeable."
But we can argue like this all day. I guess in the end it comes down to my opinions vs your and I doubt anyone's is going to change (and I don't have time to argue with a dozen people at once.)
I simply don't think GG has any merit and it's an excuse to push right or at least reactive political ideas in response to feminist criticism (valid or no) and games (good or bad).
ONE HUNDRED PERCENT CALLED IT.
[editline]a[/editline]
you all owe me 20 dollars
[editline]a[/editline]
But seriously the way these arguments go is predictable and manipulative - unintentional, but still makes these pointless if they aren't willing to challenge themselves - your at fault here snake7, not us. The only reason "this argument will go in circles" is because you choose the easiest targets, and people respond to that, and the cycle repeats. If you want to debate on an open forum you have to be ready to respond to the hardest questions if you want to be convinced. If you don't want to be convinced, then there is no point of trying to convince others. I want to be convinced, but if you fail to challenge yourself then you won't convince me or anybody else here.
I honestly wish ratings were disabled for conversations like this. It can feel upsetting and threatened to know your opinion is in the minority, and a few pixels onscreen does not a counterargument make.
('s why I argue for debate on anonymous chans rather than reddit)
[QUOTE=Snake7;47204940]
But we can argue like this all day. I guess in the end it comes down to my opinions vs your and I doubt anyone's is going to change (and I don't have time to argue with a dozen people at once.) [/QUOTE]
you're not even responding to the major points in the first place in the time it's taken you to cherry-pick so i guess maybe you dont really have the time
[quote]I simply don't think GG has any merit[/quote]
we want less corruption in video game journalism and better representation, and many video game journalist websites have revised their ethics policy as a result of our efforts
so i'm pretty sure that just makes you wrong
[QUOTE=Hypershadsy;47205014]I honestly wish ratings were disabled for conversations like this. It can feel upsetting and threatened to know your opinion is in the minority, and a few pixels onscreen does not a counterargument make.
('s why I argue for debate on anonymous chans rather than reddit)[/QUOTE]
I don't think it's the ratings fault; there's a huge amount of response to a given opinion and it's overwhelming to respond back to most of them; most people end up on the points they can argue, never bringing up the original argument in the first place.
But yeah calling them out on their failures to respond to the hard questions is a good way of knowing if they don't care.
[QUOTE=Snake7;47204014]Ok, People have said they want a "rational" argument from "Anti-Gamergate".( I think AGG is a misnomer as simply disagreeing with a movement is not a part of my identity)
Let my preface this by saying that if everyone involved in GamerGate was like the people in this thread, perhaps it wouldn't be such a large deal and simply be something I casually disagree with.
But I also think that the whole Corruption in Games has started as a cover to specifically target Zoe Quinn. 4chan hated her long before August, and her disgruntled ex accusing her of "sleeping around" was a perfect opportunity for them to attack her while throwing up a smoke screen of "ethics in video games journalism". However I can give it a benefit of a doubt as many movements can start in unsavory ways and lead to something of value.
Now, getting to my "civil" problems with GamerGate there are 2 basic issues:
1. Focusing on the wrong issues.
I'll be the first to say there are indeed problems with video games Journalism. Manly the "incentive" for large publications to give triple A titles good reviews. There are so many things on the large scale in the industry that could be talked about (another being the terrible treament of workers and interns in large companies). However, GamerGate usually focuses on small "Indie devs" and writers that have a niche audience (such as Leigh Alexander). In addition to most of these allegations being false or simply without merit, it's very like focusing on a Tree when there's a whole forest next to it. Or rather trying to cut down a small sapling while there are giant redwoods all around that they don't want to touch because cutting them down would be too difficult.
2. Polarized Political Views
Perhaps I'd take GG more seriously if it at least claimed to be politically neutral and only wanting to get rid of corruption. But simple looking at how common the phrase SJW is used proves this false. "Social Justice Warrior" is a buzzword created by the political right to quickly discredit their ideological opposition. It is similar to "Political Correctness" and "Feminazi" (a word actually created be right wind talk show host Rush Limbaugh).
As someone who supports feminist idea's and Trans and Racial equality etc. why would I support a movement who seems to downplay there importance at every turn?
As someone who thinks that mediums such as video games CAN effect how people think or even act (why else would companies spend billions on advertising every year) and that video games like every other art form should have a feminist critique why would I support I movement that has one of it's main goals be to eradicate such criticisms?[/QUOTE]
"Let my preface this by saying that if everyone involved in GamerGate was like the people in this thread, perhaps it wouldn't be such a large deal and simply be something I casually disagree with."
Same old arguments based on huge genetic/associative fallacies. This needs considerable improvement.
Also undermining Gjoni by saying he was just a disgruntled ex after the abuse he suffered? That's some fucking bullshit.
[QUOTE=Snake7;47204940]I'd like to point out in response to my first post people included "attacks on the character" of Anita and Leigh and the article about Kissing Vs Killing (A dumb article I admit.)
I responded with some unflattering quotes by pro-GG. It's worth noting that most of these are truly vile opinions I'd say more than "disagreeable."
But we can argue like this all day. I guess in the end it comes down to my opinions vs your and I doubt anyone's is going to change (and I don't have time to argue with a dozen people at once.)
I simply don't think GG has any merit and it's an excuse to push right or at least reactive political ideas in response to feminist criticism (valid or no) and games (good or bad).[/QUOTE]
Oh lol, guess you won't be improving on your first post then. In that case let me be a bit more blunt: there was literally nothing rational about it. Your reasoning is full of holes and needs serious work.
Can somebody summarize all the good points in the original posts and ask Snake7 to specifically respond to those? I think that would get us further then the circles were heading towards. (That is assuming he hasn't already left because "fuck your echo chamber!!" as I have predicted if I do say so myself hehe)
[QUOTE=Snake7;47204677]Since you said not a random person on Twitter and then posted what Anitia said on twitter I'll assume the most popular outspoken gamergate advocates are fair game. [/QUOTE]
Ok at first this was just pissing me off considering I (and others) spent 15 minutes writing a post and you respoded to just one point doing the exact thing I asked you not to do, but it actually allows me to bring up something I see all the time in the opposition: you are discussing people, I am discussing ideas.
My using twitter for citations was to bring attention to WHAT exactly gamergate is fighting against.
You are using quotes (not all of which are as damning as you think, but I'm not going there as it's irrelevant) whose only link to gamergate is that of the person who said it.
And this is the problem with ideologues, it does not matter what middle ground you might have with someone else; if he has an opinion you disagree with, that person is "tainted" and needs to be globally ostracized, avoided else it "infects" everyone they come in contact with.
THIS is one of the reasons why people say social justice warriors are a cult.
[QUOTE=Te Great Skeeve;47205046]Can somebody summarize all the good points in the original posts and ask Snake7 to specifically respond to those? I think that would get us further then the circles were heading towards. (That is assuming he hasn't already left because "fuck your echo chamber!!" as I have predicted if I do say so myself hehe)[/QUOTE]
Dude are you sure i need to dig in?
Cause i really need to get a good microscope to see anything that isn't badly told.
But right after i saw:
[QUOTE]Under this line of logic I could claim the[B] GG ideals are straight up Nazism[/B].
[/QUOTE]
HOW?
HOW ARE THEY STRAIGHT NAZISM? DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT EVEN IS?
I need some sleep.
Nazism is:
[QUOTE]The ideology and practice of the Nazis, especially the policy of racist nationalism, national expansion, and state control of the economy.[/QUOTE]
How the fuck does GG have the same thing?
HOW?
EXPLAIN ME.
[QUOTE=Ryo Ohki;47205057]Ok at first this was just pissing me off considering I (and others) spent 15 minutes writing a post and you respoded to just one point doing the exact thing I asked you not to do, but it actually allows me to bring up something I see all the time in the opposition: you are discussing people, I am discussing ideas.
My using twitter for citations was to bring attention to WHAT exactly gamergate is fighting against. You are using quotes (not all of which are damning as you think, but I'm not going there as it's irrelevant) whose only link to gamergate is that of the person who said it.
And this is the problem with ideologues, it does not matter what middle ground you might have with someone else; if he has an opinion you disagree with, that person is "tainted" and needs to be globally ostracized, avoided else it "infects" everyone they come in contact with.
THIS is one of the reasons why people say social justice warriors are a cult.[/QUOTE]
Pretty much this is what ultimately made me lean to the "pro GG" side
"us-VS-them" mentality is toxic and always counter-productive unless you literally want to start or cultivate (hurr) a cult.
Brianna wu massively butthurt over parkourdude91 being fake
[url]https://archive.today/TneSv[/url]
[QUOTE]When Wu originally began trying to find "Connors" and pursue criminal charges against him, "I felt guilty," she says. "It was clear from the videos that this was someone suffering from mental illness. I thought they needed professional help more than prison. Now finding out this is joke by this person that redoubles my effort to put him in jail.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Snake7;47204677]Since you said not a random person on Twitter and then posted what Anitia said on twitter I'll assume the most popular outspoken gamergate advocates are fair game.
First of all [url]https://8ch.net/[/url] is often considered THE gamergate website. And there most popular board is /pol/ a place that is too bigoted for even 4chan. This isn't just an isolated part of the site, it bleeds over to all other boards Example almost every thread in /fem/ has at least 1 post about how women are gold digging sluts.[/QUOTE]
Why are AGG people so fond of guilt by association fallacies? Are you going to claim that GG supporters are pedophiles because there are boards on 8chan dedicated to pictures of young children?
i find it really funny how mde handled the buzzfeed article and how everyone who doesn't know about them is running with it
[editline]24th February 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=_Axel;47205158]Why are AGG people so fond of guilt by association fallacies? Are you going to claim that GG supporters are pedophiles because there are boards on 8chan dedicated to pictures of young children?[/QUOTE]
its weird because when guilt by association is applied to agg they dismiss it as such
[editline]24th February 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Wii60;47205141]Brianna wu massively butthurt over parkourdude91 being fake
[url]https://archive.today/TneSv[/url][/QUOTE]
god this article sucks, you can tell how little research they did when they called sam hyde's tedx sketch "paradigm shift 20/20" when its fucking spelled out 2070
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;47205163]
its weird because when guilt by association is applied to agg they dismiss it as such[/QUOTE]
Of course AGG are going to dismiss guilt by association, because pretty much every single prominent AGG spokesperson has about a village graveyard of skeletons in their closets.
This who situation bothers me, because we're actually trying to have a debate and it just turns into a jumbled mess.
Is there a legitimate AGG-er?
If there is, then i'm pretty sure saint Nobody will visit me tomorrow.
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