Corruption in Gaming Journalism Discussion V2 - Back from the dead!
5,003 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Snake7;47204677]Since you said not a random person on Twitter and then posted what Anitia said on twitter I'll assume the most popular outspoken gamergate advocates are fair game.
First of all [url]https://8ch.net/[/url] is often considered THE gamergate website. And there most popular board is /pol/ a place that is too bigoted for even 4chan. This isn't just an isolated part of the site, it bleeds over to all other boards Example almost every thread in /fem/ has at least 1 post about how women are gold digging sluts.
[/quote]
Only by logical fallacy of generalization can you say all of 8chan has Pol ideals. Rather than cherrypicking random shitposters on seperate boards and talk about /pol/ you should instead discuss THE ACTUAL GAMERGATE BOARD: /Gamergate/
And even then there are diverse opinions and composed of mostly centrist. In fact threads that resemble /pol/ threads usually get sages by many users and told to "fuck off back to /pol/".
[quote]
Now on to some individuals.
[/quote]
Because we share all our opinions with specific people? You do know people discredit FemFreq not to say "All Anti-GG literally practice every dumb belief of theirs!" But because of their major influence in Games Journalism and other media when she's no more than a con-artist.
Jonathan Mcintosh who pulls Anita's strings is an advocate for corrupt journalism and straight up wants them to have an agenda that agrees with his views.
[quote]
Milo Yiannopoulos in his article on Breitbart (a heavily right leanig site) in which he focus incessantly on speculation of Brianna Wu being Transgender and saying he will on refer to her as "she" only as polite courtesy. [url]http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/02/13/the-wacky-world-of-wu-the-tortured-history-of-gamergates-self-styled-feminist-martyr/[/url]
[/quote]
I actually disagree with many of Milo's opinion, but I do appreciate that he actually brought up evidence of Game Journo Pros. IMO people only like Milo not because he's right-wing but because he's agaisnt what we're agaisnt, even if it's for seperate reasons. If he started fabricating things and pulling other bullshit no one would stand for it.
[quote]
Hotwheels advocated for eugenics in his articular in the Daily Stormer (basically a neonazi site)
[url]http://www.dailystormer.com/hotwheels-why-i-support-eugenics/[/url]
[/quote]
I'm not seeing him advocate for Nazism here so I don't really care that the Dail Stormer is that.
I'll focus on his eugenics argument in which he agrees with it to prevent desieses such as his. Even if you disagree with him at least he has good intentions :V
Even then I never hear anyone in Gamergate talk about eugenics. Because that has fuck all to do with Games Journalism.
[quote]
Internet Aristocrats Video's (his channel was taken down by himself) spoke for themselves, almost always being filled with sexism, racist, trans-phobia under the week premise of criticizing tumblr. In fact he took his channel down after a video of a guest on his gamer gate stream (king of /pol/) went on a holocaust denial rant. (also he fucked his GF during this stream but that's beside the point)
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1wUlNEHwko[/url]
[/quote]
I'm starting to see your research isn't too good. Internet Aristocrat has little to no relevance anymore and most of /Gamergate/ dislikes him
Internet Aristocrat was butthurt Gamergate didn't want to be his personal army and was pretty much ousted.
Funny thing about King Of Pol, who fabricated evidence and lied to Hotwheels about it, he's now considered a massive attention whore and no better than SJWs.
We actually don't care about Political View until you start pushing your views onto gaming or hindering progress on exposing corrupt journalism.
[quote]
Davis Aurini who attempted to make an anit-Anita Documentary has said he considers himself a white nationalist "on paper"
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsdIHK8O5yo[/url]
[/quote]
Never heard of him. But if you believe in Guilt by Association fallacy then anyone who is agaisnt Anita must also be a white nationalist?
[quote]
Even Total Biscuit one of the most popular GG supporters has recently tried to derail an article on Trans rights to make it about himself.
[url]https://storify.com/excelsiorlef/a-day-in-the-life-of-totalbiscuit[/url]
[/quote]
Oh god your source was cringe-worthy, and somehow this is meant to say he's agaisnt Trans? He said all you have to do is treat them like human beings and criticizes internet slacktivism. I agree with him, long standing society issues aren't fixed by internet articles and tweets.
I'm not even sure where he's making it about himself, he's just arguing with someone on better ways to support Trans people. How does that make either of them bad guys?
[quote]
Now you might say "these people don't represent GG!" But then how can you say that anything a person against GG says represents all "Anti GG"
[/quote]
I know I don't, I only attack their poor arguments, not claim they are all the same brain. Unless it's Gamerghazi which bans dissenting viewpoints, you're not allowed there if you disagree (From my experience)
What I do know is that Anti-Gamers either oppose us because they either listened to lies from other members about us all being misognyist harassers or actually oppose our core values of ethical journalism and no agenda pushing forced on developers.
[quote]Under this line of logic I could claim the GG ideals are straight up Nazism.[/QUOTE]
Ethical Journalism: Hitlers Dream
I'm more bothered that people are trying to have a serious debate/discussion and the other side just keeps on going "lol I'll not even bother to argue your points and make up new ones that aren't relevant" or "Let's just assume facts without looking into them and argue those" because that seems to be what happens every time.
[QUOTE=Snake7;47204940]I'd like to point out in response to my first post people included "attacks on the character" of Anita and Leigh and the article about Kissing Vs Killing (A dumb article I admit.)
I responded with some unflattering quotes by pro-GG. It's worth noting that most of these are truly vile opinions I'd say more than "disagreeable."
[/QUOTE]
There is a significant difference between saying,
Anita's opinion on this seems poorly researched or Kuchera might be biased on this because of x
and
Milo's opinion on this is invalid because of his opinion on something else
I am going to wager that you don't like fox hunting, that doesn't mean you have to agree with Hitler on everything
Quite frankly if you really consider TB to be "truly vile" then I don't know what to say.
You have also failed to address the fact that there are people with "truly vile" opinions on the Anti-GG side as well.
[QUOTE=Snake7;47204940]
But we can argue like this all day. I guess in the end it comes down to my opinions vs your and I doubt anyone's is going to change (and I don't have time to argue with a dozen people at once.)
I simply don't think GG has any merit and[B] it's an excuse to push right or at least reactive political ideas in response to feminist criticism[/B] (valid or no) and games (good or bad).[/QUOTE]
To which I am contractually obligated to post this
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Xc1FrXm.png[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Snake7;47204940]I'd like to point out in response to my first post people included "attacks on the character" of Anita and Leigh and the article about Kissing Vs Killing (A dumb article I admit.)
I responded with some unflattering quotes by pro-GG. It's worth noting that most of these are truly vile opinions I'd say more than "disagreeable."
But we can argue like this all day. I guess in the end it comes down to my opinions vs your and I doubt anyone's is going to change (and I don't have time to argue with a dozen people at once.)
I simply don't think GG has any merit and it's an excuse to push right or at least reactive political ideas in response to feminist criticism (valid or no) and games (good or bad).[/QUOTE]
Of course you're going to believe that when you willfully ignore examples of bad journalism and examples of influential industry people who are easily dis-credited yet have a lot of power.
And the core values of the Gamers in Gamergate is to stop pushing any sort of agenda in the Games Industry and instead do standard ethical practices so games get judged by merit.
HOW CAN YOU BE AGAISNT THAT.
Instead you claim we don't hold those values and are Reactionary Rightists.
SelfishDragon, chill out. You're getting a bit too emotional about this shit
[QUOTE=Snake7;47204677]Since you said not a random person on Twitter and then posted what Anitia said on twitter I'll assume the most popular outspoken gamergate advocates are fair game.
First of all [url]https://8ch.net/[/url] is often considered THE gamergate website. And there most popular board is /pol/ a place that is too bigoted for even 4chan. This isn't just an isolated part of the site, it bleeds over to all other boards Example almost every thread in /fem/ has at least 1 post about how women are gold digging sluts.
Now on to some individuals.
Milo Yiannopoulos in his article on Breitbart (a heavily right leanig site) in which he focus incessantly on speculation of Brianna Wu being Transgender and saying he will on refer to her as "she" only as polite courtesy. [url]http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/02/13/the-wacky-world-of-wu-the-tortured-history-of-gamergates-self-styled-feminist-martyr/[/url]
Hotwheels advocated for eugenics in his articular in the Daily Stormer (basically a neonazi site)
[url]http://www.dailystormer.com/hotwheels-why-i-support-eugenics/[/url]
Internet Aristocrats Video's (his channel was taken down by himself) spoke for themselves, almost always being filled with sexism, racist, trans-phobia under the week premise of criticizing tumblr. In fact he took his channel down after a video of a guest on his gamer gate stream (king of /pol/) went on a holocaust denial rant. (also he fucked his GF during this stream but that's beside the point)
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1wUlNEHwko[/url]
Davis Aurini who attempted to make an anit-Anita Documentary has said he considers himself a white nationalist "on paper"
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsdIHK8O5yo[/url]
Even Total Biscuit one of the most popular GG supporters has recently tried to derail an article on Trans rights to make it about himself.
[url]https://storify.com/excelsiorlef/a-day-in-the-life-of-totalbiscuit[/url]
Now you might say "these people don't represent GG!" But then how can you say that anything a person against GG says represents all "Anti GG"
Under this line of logic I could claim the GG ideals are straight up Nazism.[/QUOTE]
Ok, that article(correction, more like an echo chamber blog) you linked about totalbiscuit is literally trying to slander him.
[QUOTE]Slacktivism! Please Everyone take a moment to laugh at Total Biscuit of GamerGate calling a single tweet slacktivism. Slacktivism comes into play later wait for it.+
And watch him tie it into the article Sterling posted and respond to it like a complete tool. [/QUOTE]
Literally calling him a tool and telling people to laugh at him.
And I just love your last sentence.
"GG ideals are straight up Nazism"
Please elaborate because I don't feel like a Nazi.
[editline]24th February 2015[/editline]
In addition, just because certain people who stand out from the GG group doesn't mean everyone is like that. That's something called stereotyping.
He said that it could be interpreted that gamergate are nazis as a mean of demonstrating some kind of fallacy I'm not sure of, not that we ARE nazis
Jesus christ people
[QUOTE=WhyNott;47204139]Wasn't the term Social Justice Warrior, like, invented by SJW's themselves?[/QUOTE]
If I'm not mistaken a few just adopted it because they didn't get the sarcasm and took it at face value.
Arguing or debating about social issues is pretty useless, to be depressingly honest.
Everyone has a different view of what is right and wrong in society.
It's somewhat easy to change someone's opinions on a product or activity, but very very very difficult to influence someone's ideas about society.
What you [b]can[/b] debate about is how someone's opinion of society can create biased reporting on events.
We're Nazis now?
Damn I was just getting used to being an ISIS supporter.
[QUOTE=Idzo;47205590]We're Nazis now?
Damn I was just getting used to being an ISIS supporter.[/QUOTE]
who says you can't be both?
allahu adolf akbar
snip
[QUOTE=Snake7;47204677]
Under this line of logic I could claim the GG ideals are straight up Nazism.[/QUOTE]
Nice, who's the gamergatre fuhrer?
[QUOTE=Wii60;47205141]Brianna wu massively butthurt over parkourdude91 being fake
[url]https://archive.today/TneSv[/url][/QUOTE]
Wait so now she admitted that she never filed any charges against him?
[QUOTE=Snake7;47204940]I simply don't think GG has any merit and it's an excuse to push right or at least reactive political ideas in response to feminist criticism (valid or no) and games (good or bad).[/QUOTE]
I don't think there's anything wrong with setting a standard for those within the game journalist/bloggers industry disclosing them receiving gifts/personal favors from corporations and/or individual developers in exchange for a good word, or the developers being up in arms because those who rate the games they release didn't get a high enough score. I don't see how this is a certain political agenda, maybe I'm just blind to it all.
[QUOTE=Hypershadsy;47205014]I honestly wish ratings were disabled for conversations like this. It can feel upsetting and threatened to know your opinion is in the minority, and a few pixels onscreen does not a counterargument make.
('s why I argue for debate on anonymous chans rather than reddit)[/QUOTE]
If you can make a very good OP you could try making a thread in Mass Debate, but then you will have to pull a Kamiya to prevent people from Kafka-trapping.
[editline]24th February 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=FlakAttack;47205035][...]
Also undermining Gjoni by saying he was just a disgruntled ex after the abuse he suffered? That's some fucking bullshit.
[...][/QUOTE]
And continues to suffer.
Don't forget that the only reason we're not hearing anything is because Quinn committed perjury and locked him in a court case (and that he asked others not to leak the proceedings, which are technically public).
[QUOTE=Steel & Iron;47205653]I don't think there's anything wrong with setting a standard for those within the game journalist/bloggers industry disclosing them receiving gifts/personal favors from corporations and/or individual developers in exchange for a good word, or the developers being up in arms because those who rate the games they release didn't get a high enough score. I don't see how this is a certain political agenda, maybe I'm just blind to it all.[/QUOTE]
I'll use [url=http://www.huniepop.com/post/108464572403/sjw-reviews-hp-spoiler-he-doesnt-like-it]Huniepop[/url] as an example. Some reviewers and journalists have allowed political beliefs get in the way of offering an unbiased review or report.
[quote]Not only is every aspect of the game unfairly dragged through the mud, but the author insults the audience (the fans who would play this game) and accuses the game of being all manner of delightful things, including, of course, racist. Wonderful.
The worst part is, I probably did this not once, but twice. I am somewhat reluctantly willing to give this second author a benefit of the doubt. So, I guess we’ll see what happens.
Fortunately, review builds have/are also been sent out to trusted outlets with strong ethics policies such as GamesNosh, NicheGamer and Techraptor. So look out for those. Even if they were to give a mixed or unfavorable review, at least you can take comfort in the fact that they actually reviewed [b]the game.[/b][/quote]
While it's not as prevalent as taking gifts in exchange for good scores, it's become increasingly visible when you see writers for these sites attacking their audience (or more accurately, setting up straw-men to attack) over things even remotely related to social justice or political leanings.
[QUOTE=Wii60;47205141]Brianna wu massively butthurt over parkourdude91 being fake
[url]https://archive.today/TneSv[/url][/QUOTE]
[quote]Man Who Terrorized Brianna Wu [B]For Months[/B] Says He Was Just Kiddin Around[/quote][emphasis mine]
There are two things that are very wrong with this headline:
1. That's not how you do title case in English, and it looks incredibly stupid this way.
2. Getting something factually wrong halfway into the headline has to be a new record.
verge joins in the fake threat is real fun
[url]https://archive.today/uQrXT[/url]
[QUOTE]This hasn't exactly put his targets at ease. "This has had an extreme level of emotional stress for me, my husband, and my team," says Wu in an interview with The Verge. "That's not a joke. That is destroying my ability to do my job." Among other things, the videos advance Gamergate's longtime accusations that women fake online harassment. Even meant as a joke, Wu says Connors' repeated, menacing tweets and videos were a nasty addition to an already large pile of threats. Paging through his videos, she found one "a little staged," she says. "But I have to take this stuff seriously. ... There was never any point at which he dropped the mask." At one point, Wu posted a picture of a restraining order from a Massachusetts court, with (ultimately false) contact information she'd gleaned from Gamergate supporters. "The police tried to serve this person. They were unable to locate them, which is why we ultimately chose to just blot out that information and tweet it out," she says.
"My first reaction was, I don't know what it changes," she says of Bernstein's story. "I fully expected when we went to court with this person that this is exactly what they would say — it was a joke, it's not serious, they didn't mean it." While Connors wasn't the only reason she scaled back her PAX presence, "if I had known this three weeks ago, it's possible we would have made a different decision," she says. "I think it's really sad that we lost that promotional opportunity."[/QUOTE]
"We're hanging up our trolling spurs guys, you can trust us."
Advanced stupidity.
[quote]"if I had known this three weeks ago, it's possible we would have made a different decision," she says. [U]"I think it's really sad that we lost that promotional opportunity."[/U][/quote]
I'm confused by this. It's not like people have no idea Revolution 60 exists and they aren't discussing Wu and the game itself on blogs/social media/forums.
[QUOTE=Steel & Iron;47205978]I'm confused by this. It's not like people have no idea Revolution 60 exists and they aren't discussing Wu and the game itself on blogs/social media/forums.[/QUOTE]
Besides that I highly doubt many people who actually see the game in action won't react by walking away at an acute angle (unless they fixed those headache-inducing textures at the very least).
[QUOTE=WhyNott;47205390]SelfishDragon, chill out. You're getting a bit too emotional about this shit[/QUOTE]
I'm calm but ok
[QUOTE=Steel & Iron;47205978]I'm confused by this. It's not like people have no idea Revolution 60 exists and they aren't discussing Wu and the game itself on blogs/social media/forums.[/QUOTE]
The discussion, I would guess, is pretty much all negative too. What amount of promotion would fix that?
[QUOTE=Hypershadsy;47205014]I honestly wish ratings were disabled for conversations like this. It can feel upsetting and threatened to know your opinion is in the minority, and a few pixels onscreen does not a counterargument make.
('s why I argue for debate on anonymous chans rather than reddit)[/QUOTE]
[url]http://facepunch.com/profile.php?do=editoptions[/url] and control+F for "ratings".
[QUOTE=Snake7;47204677]-Poor Arguing-[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;47197625]Most of the debates are amongst pro-gg users anyway. There really aren't many anti-gg users who come in here who aren't just trying to shitpost. They need to understand something: you may get a lot of people arguing against you if you post, but if you're right then you are right. You're going to get vetted hard, but if you're right the people here will actually accept that. But if you fail the vetting, you're not going to be looked on kindly. [B]And if your immediate response is to get your back up and defensive instead of trying to prove your case, you've failed the vetting.[/B]
So if you've got a legitimate point, just stand your ground, your case will shine through. No one will have a problem with that.[/QUOTE]
It was only two pages prior...
Why are KoP, IA, and Milo [I]still[/I] touted around as some kind of evidence that GG is all right-wing misogynist crazies?
I dunno about Milo but IA and KoP haven't been relevant to [I]anything[/I] for [I]months[/I], what the shit
[QUOTE=Sitkero;47206445]Why are KoP, IA, and Milo [I]still[/I] touted around as some kind of evidence that GG is all right-wing misogynist crazies?
I dunno about Milo but IA and KoP haven't been relevant to [I]anything[/I] for [I]months[/I], what the shit[/QUOTE]
King of Pol and Internet Aristocrat both got laughed at for trying to push their crazy right wing shit, with IA leaving because he couldn't hijack everything, and King of Pol getting thrown out for being both crazy and falsifying evidence. Milo isn't looked highly upon, but he's honest in his reporting of related events so no one has a problem with him.
[QUOTE=WhyNott;47205488]He said that it could be interpreted that gamergate are nazis as a mean of demonstrating some kind of fallacy I'm not sure of, not that we ARE nazis
Jesus christ people[/QUOTE]
To make this a little clearer, his train went off the rails. I'm going to try and deconstruct his point.
In Snake's original post, he says that Gamergate as a movement downplays the importance of trans and racial equality, to explain why he's against it. Ryo asks for a source on that, and Snake brings up a few specific notable GG individuals + a few random unrelated people demonstrating their anti-equality views. This relies pretty heavily on the Association fallacy, but he addresses that as well - "You might say 'these people don't represent GG', but then how can you say that anything an AGG person says represents AGG?"
But wait, did he just tear apart his own argument? He used examples of individuals being anti-equality to declare Gamergate as an anti-equality movement, then says that we use guilt-by-association falsely to discredit our opposition. Does the Association fallacy only work one way? Or are we back to square one, in that the actions of a movement can't be summarized by a few specific people? If that's so, then his original point has just been debunked.
I don't think he thought that through all the way, then he realized it later, and tried to be self-demonstrating in his counterclaim by showing we use the same logic against AGG, and evidences that by quoting this post by Thlis.
[QUOTE=Thlis;47204056]Have you actually read what the opposition claims is their "feminist ideals"? It includes outright lying about history and articles on "How a game didn't tell the player the difference between kissing and killing". [/QUOTE]
He then uses his citations of a notable GG supporter being in favor of eugenics to say - he can use Thlis' line of reasoning to say GG is in favor of eugenics, showing all-in-all, that we should stop using guilt by association. A pretty clever point IMO.
But wait! That still doesn't change the fact that he just debunked his original opinion. Does he retract the point? Did he change his mind? Is he still reading the thread?
Snake, I made this clear a few pages ago, but I really do think an equal debate is what this thread needs - really badly. You demonstrated something pretty clever (about how we use guilt by association against AGG then condemn them for doing the same) at the end there, but overall, your argument is awful. Please step it up, right now you're just entrenching everyone else in their views and proving their points.
My advice for you is that, if you're going to go on the offensive in the gamergate HQ of Facepunch, then your argument has to be ridiculously watertight. If you're ever against a corner defending yourself, then you've failed. You need to get out before you make yourself look like a fool, like Snake just did, and rethink your battleplan, especially where other people have proven you wrong.
TLDR? Stop posting while you still can, Snake, you're making us look bad.
To everyone AGG lurking, if you're going to begin a debate, please make sure you know what you're talking about first.
That "debate" went as I expected, many well rounded responses yet all that was had was guilt by association. If that's what you have to fallback on, this shitstorm will never end. I mean both sides can play that game, do you want me to link you srhbutts ED page and scream pedo, everytime you make a post?
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