• Corruption in Gaming Journalism Discussion V2 - Back from the dead!
    5,003 replies, posted
I think that many of the people who think that girls get it sooo much worse than guys on the Internet don't quite get the negative sexist connotations which can affect men. Undoubtedly, there are plenty of people who say 'Tits or GTFO' if they hear a high-pitched, female voice. But, at the same time, games could be considered [I]more[/I] accepting, if a little misguided, because of that- they can only hear your voice. I'm a trans girl and normally when I'm shouting, or talking for a long time, I might lapse into a male-sounding voice. I've never had any abuse on voice chat for how I talk, however, even when I go between both voices- which is more than I can say for when I've gone out in a skirt at school. The Internet definitely has some parts that are shitty. Personally, I think trash-talking is just an outlet for the aggression that some people feel in the middle of a heated game. Personally I tend to keep it to myself and just mutter 'Bastard' if I get shot in the head, but I guess some people like their opponents hearing the insults. And even if they are actually abusing youm one advantage of the Internet of course, is that you can mute people you don't like- and if you want, you can mute absolutely everybody on your team. That's not a perfect solution and I certainly think some people's attitudes need to change. But from my experience (and yes, I know it's anecdotal but that's all I have), abusive comments in games have been either equal, if not less prevalent, than the stuff in real life. [editline]6th March 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Rockeiro123;47269993]These are some of the things he's been favoriting on twitter lately; [t]http://a.pomf.se/iisnmc.png[/t] [URL="https://twitter.com/TimOfLegend/favorites"]Source[/URL][/QUOTE] "I've always thought humour is one of the most powerful healing voices we have" [B]BULL. FUCKING. SHIT.[/B] Any jokes by GG, and I mean [I]anything[/I], have immediately been shot at because they're 'offensive' or damaging or triggering or whatever the fuck. Even joking about Wu coming from a rich background, even making utterly non-controversial comments which don't actually involve any kind of mention of minorities, immediately it's sexist or whatever the fuck. And yet Tim Schafer [I]legitimately says "Ha, those #NotYourShield people are just sockpuppets and slacktivists"[/I] and he's a-okay?
[QUOTE=Rockeiro123;47269993]These are some of the things he's been favoriting on twitter lately; [t]http://a.pomf.se/iisnmc.png[/t] [URL="https://twitter.com/TimOfLegend/favorites"]Source[/URL][/QUOTE] Wow this is hilarious. "I never saw anything racist in it" is the best kind of strawman. I mean, if I were to say something like that about any other hot topic then I'd get called out, but these people can do it and not even thinking about real actual people were hurt by this!
Amy Hennig (of Uncharted fame) said this: [url]https://archive.today/KECSB[/url] [QUOTE]Amy Hennig, senior creative director of Electronic Arts’ Visceral Games, was the creative director of games like the Uncharted series. She has been doing it for the last 20 years. She reminisced about pumping quarters into arcade games like Night Driver and Sea Wolf. She studied film, but then veered off into games. She broke into the game industry at EA and moved on to Eidos’ Crystal Dynamics. “Those were good years,” she said. In 2003, she joined Naughty Dog to work on Jak 3. Then she spent almost a decade working on the Uncharted games. She’s now working on Star Wars. “It’s kind of amazing the path your life takes you,” Hennig said. “This makes me kind of uncomfortable, knowing what kind of year people have had. It’s absolutely critical to cut through the negativity.” She said she wasn’t discounting any one else’s story, but she said in 20 years s he had never experienced any harassment. “I may be just oblivious, and maybe that has worked for me,” she said. “This industry is a haven for me. The Internet is a toxic place. Gamer culture can be noxious. The media can elevate negativity.” She gets her share of “shitty comments” like “make me a sandwich grandma.” My response, “Yeah, I’ll make you a sandwich. And a AAA game franchise too.” She then showed a picture of Uncharted. “How about that, you little punk,” she said. “For me, the game industry is a shining castle on a hill. The shitty things can make our castle a nightmare.” She said the game industry is not a frightening place for women. It’s not a hostile place, as the media have portrayed it in the past year.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Wii60;47270284]Amy Hennig (of Uncharted fame) said this: [url]https://archive.today/KECSB[/url][/QUOTE] I really wanna see AGG wave this off. Yeah, she's just a sock puppet right? :v:
notice how the good female devs who actually contributed to the game industry in a meaningful way never have any harrassment problems
[QUOTE=Wii60;47270312]notice how the good female devs who actually contributed to the game industry in a meaningful way never have any harrassment problems[/QUOTE] Let your skills do the talking, instead of your mouth or your blog.
Just curious what happened to that female exec producer for AC1? I've never seen her name mentioned in any later series or games.
[QUOTE=Tetsmega;47270542]Just curious what happened to that female exec producer for AC1? I've never seen her name mentioned in any later series or games.[/QUOTE] Are you talking about [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jade_Raymond"]Jade Raymond[/URL]? According to Wikipedia she went on to work on Watch_Dogs, The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot, and Splinter Cell: Blacklist
[QUOTE=Solo Wing;47270307]I really wanna see AGG wave this off. Yeah, she's just a sock puppet right? :v:[/QUOTE] Clearly her internalized misogyny prevents her from seeing the rampant sexism around her. Just like agg is defending Timmy's Puppet Hour erasing minorities for stupid jokes in a room full of white people, predominantly male. Oh, wait, that actually happened.
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;47269503]As I said before, if an AGG user wants to make a point, they have to stand up to the vetting, its a rigorous routine of questions and answers, citing, and more. It will be from multiple people because there are a lot of people involved in the movement and they all have a right to have their say, and everyone will bring their own unique concerns to the table. The complaints about piling on are ridiculous, they have to be able to take staunch criticism and it isn't a secret that there are a lot of people involved. If they want nothing to do with the thread then why are they here? If they're not willing to actually back up their arguments then why are they here? If they come in and make awful arguments, they absolutely deserve to be shit on. If they don't want to be shit on, then they have to start making legitimate, substantive arguments. At no point will I apologize for requiring them to make a valid argument.[/QUOTE] No they shoudn't have to go through some rigorous process in order to put their point of view across. It's one thing them popping up and spouting rubbish in the thread, but another when people want to hear an AGG perspective and challenge it. Why should someone want to come into this thread and try to argue with mutiple posters with mutiple points, sinking time into read writing and citing, when it only really serves to benefit us? So if you want to post an opposing opinion, you have to absolutley commit and full proof your agrument, when the rest of the thread can either choose to make a good counter-argument or they can just quickly chime in with their opinion. Doesn't sound like fairplay to me. That is if people actually want to hear what they have to say. What exactly is gained by showing everyone that we can all flatten one AGGer? In my opinion what you're asking for effectlively rules out most if not any AGG argument, so they might aswell just save some time and request a ban before they try to post.
[QUOTE=JohnnyGoGo;47270833]No they shoudn't have to go through some rigorous process in order to put their point of view across.[/QUOTE]They absolutely should. Otherwise its just shouting bullshit and hoping it sticks, don't leave it unchecked. [QUOTE]It's one thing them popping up and spouting rubbish in the thread, but another when people want to hear an AGG perspective and challenge it. Why should someone want to come into this thread and try to argue with mutiple posters with mutiple points, sinking time into read writing and citing, when it only really serves to benefit us?[/QUOTE] If they don't care, why post? [QUOTE]So if you want to post an opposing opinion, you have to absolutley commit and full proof your agrument, when the rest of the thread can either choose to make a good counter-argument or they can just quickly chime in with their opinion.[/QUOTE]Again, if they don't care, why post? [QUOTE]Doesn't sound like fairplay to me. That is if people actually want to hear what they have to say. What exactly is gained by showing everyone that we can all flatten one AGGer?[/QUOTE]If they're right and can prove it, they'll have no problems. Thats the point. They won't get "flattened". [QUOTE]In my opinion what you're asking for effectlively rules out most if not any AGG argument,[/QUOTE]If all their arguments fall apart, then too bad? Who cares if half-assed, ill-formed arguments can't be made? If they've got one that is valid, then its valid and all the better for it. [QUOTE]so they might aswell just save some time and request a ban before they try to post.[/QUOTE]They won't get banned if they don't just degenerate in to shitposting. [editline]6th March 2015[/editline] Here's the thing, we'd like to see AGG arguments that can take more than thirty seconds of scrutiny. Not just "Lol its obviously just misogyny. No I won't prove it! Who cares? Nerds!"
I have yet to be added to the blockbot list :downs: I am even following people who are part of Pro-GG and still nothing.
Really how does winning an internet argument "benefit us", that's utter nonsense. We asked for differing opinion because that's what someone with critical thinking does. What about the time [B][I]I[/I][/B] wasted writing several paragraphs just to have one single point of my post replied to using the usual cherry picking and guilt by association bullshit? You can only have a constructive discussion if both parties are willing to be convinced, otherwise the only possible final outcomes are yelling at each other untill someone leaves. If someone comes in here with no intention of being convinced then I don't want to have a discusssion with them. Why would I listen to someone that has no intention of listening to me? I already read plenty of AGG's nonsense elsewhere, I am not impressed. I wanted someone to come here and challenge [I]my[/I] ideas, and I'm not impressed. [B] And if you're going to come here and accuse us of being racist and sexist you better have a good fucking argument for it[/B]
Christ. Can I get a poll who in this thread supports social justice and equality,as I for one do not believe we oppose it just have a different approach . I want to see people built up not others torn down,end the decades long "boys only" stigma perpetuated by media,put some innitiatives in place to get more diverse groups interested at a young age. [editline]6th March 2015[/editline] So very tired of getting shouted down because I don't think acting like a prick helps anything and that erasure is fine as long as they are "fighting for your rights".
Ryulong decided to address the puppet show. [QUOTE]Gamergate becomes a punchline At the 2015 Game Developers Choice Awards (GDCA, essentially the Academy Awards for the game industry), Gamergate and Gaters were turned into humor and jokes by the likes of Ashly Burch of Hey Ash, Whatcha Playin'? and Double Fine's Tim Schafer. Ashly produced a sketch comedy piece about the concept of a social justice warrior[329] to a rousing ovation by game developers for the Independent Game Developers' segment.[330] Later, the presenter of the IGA segment went on a rant at the end about how Gaters act and used it as a call to not ignore this treatment (to a long standing ovation).[331] Tim Schafer took the stage for presenting the second half (the GDCA, as opposed to the IGA) and immediately went off on Gamergate. "...I won't be making any jokes about Gamergate. All of tonight's Gamergate jokes will be made by this sock puppet. (Audience Laugh Break) Now I cannot be held responsible for anything this sock puppet says, it's not associated with me at all."[332] Later, the puppet joked, "How many Gamergaters does it take to make a single piece of armor? Fifty! One to do the modeling, one to do the materials and forty [sic] to tweet that it's not your shield!"[333] Gaters, who have spent 7 months telling women to grow a thicker skin, went up in arms, claiming Schafer was making a racist and sexist joke at their expense. Their reaction however is the biggest joke of all.[334][335][/QUOTE] References #334 and #335 are to the article on The Mary Sue and some shit Kuchera published on Polygon, naturally. I feel that agg is doing as much to scare women out of getting into gaming (why would any woman want to get involved in a culture that is allegedly so toxic and death-threat-happy??) as they are encouraging it. I support agg's stated goal of making gaming a more friendly environment for women and minorities, because they are fairly underrepresented in the industry, [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4eDrTUjNzQ&t=1000"]as seen at the Game Developers Choice Awards (this is the crowd pan when Destiny won for best technology - spot minorities other than the occasional woman, if you can)[/URL]. But I don't believe that's agg's [B]actual[/B] primary goal. A perfectly good social change movement was co-opted by manipulative people for their own gain, much of it perpetuating the corrupt relationships and practices that kicked off the controversy and that pro-gamergate is trying to expose and excise from the games/games journalism industry. The fact that agg considers debate or criticism of the groupthink harassment is particularly concerning, because they're here to demand things be changed to suit them with no regard for anyone else. That's not how you accomplish anything. This isn't the fucking Arab Spring, this is video games. Those who can, do. Those who can't, start Twitter drama that plugs your Patreon.
[QUOTE=Ryo Ohki;47270965]Really how does winning an internet argument "benefit us", that's utter nonsense. We asked for differing opinion because that's what someone with critical thinking does. What about the time [B][I]I[/I][/B] wasted writing several paragraphs just to have one single point of my post replied to using the usual cherry picking and guilt by association bullshit? You can only have a constructive discussion if both parties are willing to be convinced, otherwise the only possible final outcomes are yelling at each other untill someone leaves. If someone comes in here with no intention of being convinced then I don't want to have a discusssion with them. Why would I listen to someone that has no intention of listening to me? I already read plenty of AGG's nonsense elsewhere, I am not impressed. I wanted someone to come here and challenge [I]my[/I] ideas, and I'm not impressed. [B] And if you're going to come here and accuse us of being racist and sexist you better have a good fucking argument for it[/B][/QUOTE] In a public debate, your chances of convincing the opposition are close to zero. Convincing the people observing the debate however is another story. Which is also why neutral ground is important. There aren't many here who need convincing, but that's not to say some won't come by.
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;47270918]If they don't care, why post?[/QUOTE] I don't think that really means anything man, because you're saying that just because they don't want to put the effort in and argue on these terms, then that must mean they don't care at all. Contructed arguments take time and they take effort, and not a small amount either in this case. Really it seems that the attitude of this thread, or at least when it comes to someone actually posting, is not that AGGer's are more than welcome to have their say here. Rather it's yeah they can post here, but only on these terms. Not nessesarily bad terms, but terms that only apply to them because this is a pro-GG thread.
[QUOTE=JesseR92;47271120]Christ. Can I get a poll who in this thread supports social justice and equality,as I for one do not believe we oppose it just have a different approach . I want to see people built up not others torn down,end the decades long "boys only" stigma perpetuated by media,put some innitiatives in place to get more diverse groups interested at a young age. [editline]6th March 2015[/editline] So very tired of getting shouted down because I don't think acting like a prick helps anything and that erasure is fine as long as they are "fighting for your rights".[/QUOTE] I'm a pansexual transgender young woman who absolutely believes in social justice. I just hate arseholes, no matter their political alignment. That's why I support GamerGate.
[QUOTE=JohnnyGoGo;47271291]I don't think that really means anything man, because you're saying that just because they don't want to put the effort in and argue on these terms, then that must mean they don't care at all. Contructed arguments take time and they take effort, and not a small amount either in this case. Really it seems that the attitude of this thread, or at least when it comes to someone actually posting, is not that AGGer's are more than welcome to have their say here. Rather it's yeah they can post here, but only on these terms. Not nessesarily bad terms, but terms that only apply to them because this is a pro-GG thread.[/QUOTE] Those are terms I apply to anyone wanting to make a point, [I]anywhere[/I]. If someone makes a bad pro-GG argument I'm going to pile it with boxes too. It's really not a question of what someone argues, but [I]how[/I] they do.
[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;47271263]Ryulong decided to address the puppet show. References #334 and #335 are to the article on The Mary Sue and some shit Kuchera published on Polygon, naturally. I feel that agg is doing as much to scare women out of getting into gaming (why would any woman want to get involved in a culture that is allegedly so toxic and death-threat-happy??) as they are encouraging it. I support agg's stated goal of making gaming a more friendly environment for women and minorities, because they are fairly underrepresented in the industry, [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4eDrTUjNzQ&t=1000"]as seen at the Game Developers Choice Awards (this is the crowd pan when Destiny won for best technology - spot minorities other than the occasional woman, if you can)[/URL]. But I don't believe that's agg's [B]actual[/B] primary goal. A perfectly good social change movement was co-opted by manipulative people for their own gain, much of it perpetuating the corrupt relationships and practices that kicked off the controversy and that pro-gamergate is trying to expose and excise from the games/games journalism industry. The fact that agg considers debate or criticism of the groupthink harassment is particularly concerning, because they're here to demand things be changed to suit them with no regard for anyone else. That's not how you accomplish anything. This isn't the fucking Arab Spring, this is video games. Those who can, do. Those who can't, start Twitter drama that plugs your Patreon.[/QUOTE] [quote]Fifty! One to do the modeling, one to do the materials and forty [sic][/quote] AHAHAHAAA, RW MORE ACCURATE THAN MAINSTREAM NEWS.
[QUOTE=Talishmar;47271282]In a public debate, your chances of convincing the opposition are close to zero.[/QUOTE] It's about having a certain mentality to have a constructive debate, if you have no points to make and still won't admit defeat, all you can do is resort to dishonesty. Yeah that's what makes a good politician I suppose, but I've got no respect for that. [QUOTE=JesseR92;47271120] [B]I want to see people built up not others torn down[/B],end the decades long "boys only" stigma perpetuated by media,put some innitiatives in place to get more diverse groups interested at a young age.[/QUOTE] Given the opposite is one of the pillars of the internet-era social justice if I were you I'd really consider not using that term to describe yourself anymore Hell don't label yourself at all, especially using words that have no clear definition
[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;47271263]I support agg's stated goal of making gaming a more friendly environment for women and minorities, because they are fairly underrepresented in the industry, [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4eDrTUjNzQ&t=1000"]as seen at the Game Developers Choice Awards (this is the crowd pan when Destiny won for best technology - spot minorities other than the occasional woman, if you can)[/URL].[/QUOTE] Is gaming really a hostile environments towards women and minorities? (Especially the latter, I've never heard of people being excluded from gaming because they're black or asian?) So far I've seen articles plastering everywhere that women are being excluded somehow, yet they present no evidence other than the fact that some of them get harassed or called mean things on the internet, something that's not exclusive to women at all and if anything happens more often to males. Underrepresentation is not an indicator of hostile environment in any way. They may very well not be as interested in this sector as males are, and if that's the case why is it a problem?
[QUOTE=TomatoFlakes;47269470]Well shit, one of my sisters got my IP banned from 8chan /v/ for a shit tumblr raid. [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/NZ6SKOA.png[/IMG] Googled the post and found out it was actually a copy-paste job from some twitter user that has used the auto-blocker. I think I need to have a [I]long[/I] talk with 'em.[/QUOTE] Just use frootvpn(it's free, just make an account and use the openVPN option). I use it when I'm at college so I can browse 8ch and other sites. The only downside is that one of the IPs is banned here.
[QUOTE=Hidole555;47270603]Are you talking about [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jade_Raymond"]Jade Raymond[/URL]? According to Wikipedia she went on to work on Watch_Dogs, The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot, and Splinter Cell: Blacklist[/QUOTE] If I remember right, she got into major disagreements with Ubisoft upper management on what direction to take the series in after 1, with her believing they should make three in the modern day and have it as the end of the series. Which didn't fly well with Ubisoft who wanted a cash cow franchise they could juice for years to come.
[QUOTE=_Axel;47271559]Is gaming really a hostile environments towards women and minorities? (Especially the latter, I've never heard of people being excluded from gaming because they're black or asian?) So far I've seen articles plastering everywhere that women are being excluded somehow, yet they present no evidence other than the fact that some of them get harassed over the internet or called mean things on the internet, something that's not exclusive to women at all and if anything happens more often to males. Underrepresentation is not an indicator of hostile environment in any way. They may very well not be as interested in this sector as males are, and if that's the case why is it a problem?[/QUOTE] Proving that gaming or the developer ecosystem are explicitly hostile to women and minorities is difficult because there's no clear yardstick standard for data. Aside from raw employment statistics (which are not entirely tied to a single factor--sexism/racism), almost all the data presented on both sides is anecdotal. Anti-GG finds a dev who claims sexually harassment at her workplace, GG finds a successful and respected female dev with an entirely different experience, etc. I have heard stories of development studios where the work atmosphere is frat bros and Brogrammers, and female devs are given shit and management looks the other way/is complicit and sometimes encouraging of such shit. However, those are the exception to the rule--I imagine that a significant number of workplaces are at least capable of baseline tolerance and acceptance and worry about results more than genitalia. However, we still see far fewer women and minorities in gaming and tech in general. Let's remember that we just got out of decades of social expectations that women would be homemakers while their husbands would have careers and income, along with the lingering stench of racism that hasn't finished dying. There is a [I]lot[/I] of deep-rooted cultural messaging that we need to overturn, and not everywhere advances at the same time. Society declared video games nerdy teenage boy shit because they weren't interested, and even though that's not true (many girls play games), it was helped along to become a cultural meme, and the horrible-people segment of the population settled right in to abuse it (they're the ones telling women to fucking shut off the console and go back in the kitchen if they dare use a mic or even have a female avatar in online games) and enjoy living the stereotype. And now people are angry that the group they ostracized and consigned to being asocial loser virgins are acting like angry, bigoted asocial loser virgins after 10 years in the loser virgin gulags of CoD lobbies. The real solution is to encourage more young people to get into STEM fields, and to try and counteract latent discouraging messages left over from less-enlightened recent times. It's a long-game solution, however, and it takes dedication and a ten-year education budget commitment, and that's hard and yields results slowly. I don't think the de facto figureheads of anti-gg are role model material, however, nor should they be allowed to define or produce curriculum materials for an education overhaul. FemFreq is already misleading enough, we don't need it warping the next generation.
[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;47271720]However, we still see far fewer women and minorities in gaming and tech in general.[/QUOTE] I reiterate. Why is it necessarily a bad thing? People seem to think it is a crucial issue but I don't see the need for some kind of cultural reform in the realm of gaming. Let those who are interested in gaming in and welcome them warmly, and let those who aren't fulfill their need for entertainment through other hobbies. As long as everybody get to indulge in the hobby they want, who is given unfair treatment here? Why should we concern ourselves with gender distribution in gaming or STEM workplaces?
[del]Oh neat. A ban.[/del] [url]https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2y4pch/happenings_rev_60s_gross_income/[/url] blahblahblahblah e-celeb drama, but the top post by Dougie really explains why Wu is Wu. She's essentially all in on Rev60, and GG was supposed to be her ticket to moolahland. And to address JohnnyGoGo, Asking us not to "dogpile" people with questions and refutes to their posts is the most ass-backward thing ever. Could it scare them into not coming to the thread? Potentially, but fuck that. That just shows that they are afraid of being wrong, or corrected. But it does show people who are outside the two sides a thing about both sides. For example, when Snake7 came in, he put forth his view. And you know what happened? The amount of deconstruction and thought put into the counterarguments from this thread can show lurkers that GG isn't all fluff. There is an actual method to our "madness". And when the other side (Snake7, in this example) just goes around in circles, it just strengthens us. It shows how undeveloped their view is, and how well we understand what is going on.
Since when were there few minorities in gaming? There are proportionately less women but I see about as many minorities gaming as non-minorities.
[QUOTE=DuCT;47271926][del]Oh neat. A ban.[/del] [url]https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2y4pch/happenings_rev_60s_gross_income/[/url] blahblahblahblah e-celeb drama, but the top post by Dougie really explains why Wu is Wu. She's essentially all in on Rev60, and GG was supposed to be her ticket to moolahland. [/QUOTE] How to become bankrupt and hated for fooling people 101.
[QUOTE=1nfiniteseed;47271592]If I remember right, she got into major disagreements with Ubisoft upper management on what direction to take the series in after 1, with her believing they should make three in the modern day and have it as the end of the series. Which didn't fly well with Ubisoft who wanted a cash cow franchise they could juice for years to come.[/QUOTE] That certainly explains a lot. [editline]7th March 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Helix Snake;47271939]Since when were there few minorities in gaming? There are proportionately less women but I see about as many minorities gaming as non-minorities.[/QUOTE] In game development maybe, but even then it really depends on where you look.
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