Corruption in Gaming Journalism Discussion V2 - Back from the dead!
5,003 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;47271939]Since when were there few minorities in gaming? There are proportionately less women but I see about as many minorities gaming as non-minorities.[/QUOTE]
And I would argue that certain genres have more minorities. I mean, just take a look at the Fighting Games.
[QUOTE=DuCT;47271990]And I would argue that certain genres have more minorities. I mean, just take a look at the Fighting Games.[/QUOTE]
I believe one of the more prominent members of the Fighting Game Community is Transgender, no less.
i feel that the lack of women and minorities in STEM fields and specifically game development is a symptom of society subtly pushing them away from pursuing those fields, and not as a result of those fields being inherently racist and/or sexist, which is why i find it odd that people always seem to try to go after the field and companies instead of trying to tackle the base issue
Was this posted before? I don't think so but I may be wrong:
[video=youtube;7uGdfOJZoF4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uGdfOJZoF4[/video]
The video probably doesn't contain much new information for most of us here, but it's a handy summary to link devs to if they say something about IGDA.
(That thumbnail though.)
I more meant in development; in terms of players, if you wanna play games, you play games. Certain particular corners of certain gaming communities might be unwashed shitlords and be abusive to you because of your gender, race, orientation, or anything else they can think of to be nasty about, but you just need to learn to avoid those places and you'll have a good time unless you have a massive tumblr-style persecution complex you refuse to let go of. Anti-gg would hold that those unsafe places are the dominant story, and that's not my experience at all, even on open lobby XBL games.
I don't think the industry is plugged as full of cis white males as agg says there is, but it's still way too common that you look at a photo of a studio dev team and it's still 75-80% white guys. I don't think it's a massive social crisis that merits burning everything and starting over, and we don't need affirmative-action hiring quotas or anything else reactionary like that, but I'd like to see diversity in the industry to a greater degree.
Hopefully, with the resurgence of the PC gaming scene after the long brown-and-bloom console decade, we'll see gaming grow with tons of new developers and studios. We don't need to cut anyone out, just make room for more to come in. Competition's great, after all.
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;47272208]i feel that the lack of women and minorities in STEM fields and specifically game development is a symptom of society subtly pushing them away from pursuing those fields, and not as a result of those fields being inherently racist and/or sexist, which is why i find it odd that people always seem to try to go after the field and companies instead of trying to tackle the base issue[/QUOTE]
Everything I was trying to say in one sentence.
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;47272208]i feel that the lack of women and minorities in STEM fields and specifically game development is a symptom of society subtly pushing them away from pursuing those fields, and not as a result of those fields being inherently racist and/or sexist, which is why i find it odd that people always seem to try to go after the field and companies instead of trying to tackle the base issue[/QUOTE]
Attacking a field is very easy. Attacking a deep-running, hotly-debated societal construct is far, far more complex. I see a lot of people on Tumblr, believe it or not, doing the latter. The majority of Tumblr people actually do want to see a positive change in the world, but you get people like this who would much rather just complain about everything so they can feel accomplished without actually doing very much.
[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;47272241]I don't think the industry is plugged as full of cis white males as agg says there is, but it's still way too common that you look at a photo of a studio dev team and it's still 75-80% white guys. I don't think it's a massive social crisis that merits burning everything and starting over, and we don't need affirmative-action hiring quotas or anything else reactionary like that, but I'd like to see diversity in the industry to a greater degree.[/QUOTE]
Again, what's the point of pushing diversity for the sake of diversity? If lack of diversity is due to discriminatory practices, then it is a problem because it treats people unfairly. If it is due to lack of interest, then who exactly is treated unfairly? You talk about possible reasons for this lack of interest, and try to propose ways to change that, but so far you haven't explained the [U]purpose[/U] of doing so.
[QUOTE=JohnnyGoGo;47271291]I don't think that really means anything man, because you're saying that just because they don't want to put the effort in and argue on these terms, then that must mean they don't care at all. Contructed arguments take time and they take effort, and not a small amount either in this case. Really it seems that the attitude of this thread, or at least when it comes to someone actually posting, is not that AGGer's are more than welcome to have their say here. Rather it's yeah they can post here, but only on these terms. Not nessesarily bad terms, but terms that only apply to them because this is a pro-GG thread.[/QUOTE]
Okay, so let me ask you this, what would you have the conversation be like then? And what would that entail? We're open to new ideas, you can say we're close minded or what have you, but that doesn't make it true. If someone presents a bad argument, empty statements or hollow accusations, they are going to be called out for that. If someone brought up a valid point, they would be accepted and the argument along with them. This idea that we have to not only let bad ideas stand as equally as good ones in the name of some form of politeness is asinine.
People shouldn't make argumentative posts if they don't/can't handle the argument itself. You want to argue your ideas? Prepare to have them tested as thoroughly as you desire to test someone else.
[QUOTE=DuCT;47271926][del]Oh neat. A ban.[/del]
[URL]https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2y4pch/happenings_rev_60s_gross_income/[/URL]
blahblahblahblah e-celeb drama, but the top post by Dougie really explains why Wu is Wu. She's essentially all in on Rev60, and GG was supposed to be her ticket to moolahland.
[/QUOTE]
Hold the fucking phone.
How the fuck did that cost $400k to develop, for essentially a one person team?
I am not saying this in an attempt to be cruel. When I first saw that game I thought, "hey it looks like shit but they programmed their own 3d engine for it, I probably couldn't do that".
The fact that they didn't and this is actually being done on the UE engine perplexes me to no end. Did they all buy cintiqs and mac pros with the dev money?
[QUOTE=Thlis;47272537]Hold the fucking phone.
How the fuck did that cost $400k to develop, for essentially a one person team?[/QUOTE]
Believe it or not, Rev60 was worked on by multiple people, I think 3 other women, not including Wu.
That, and she also learned from the Tim Shafer school of budgeting.
[QUOTE=Thlis;47272537]Hold the fucking phone.
How the fuck did that cost $400k to develop, for essentially a one person team?[/QUOTE]
It was more like a five-person team, and Wu and her husband allegedly didn't pay themselves out of the budget.
Take a group of people who've never made a game before, a reasonably-sized budget for an indie project, and not enough playtesting and research, and you get Rev60.
I've a feeling their salaries were a little higher than no-name-brand ramen level, because there is very literally no way all of it could've been spent on software licenses and hardware.
[QUOTE=Rob3k;47267968][IMG]http://i.gyazo.com/98e3c134f09ca4577e9b072a43a14135.png[/IMG]
lmao a white person deciding what is and isnt racist[/QUOTE]
of course robbydude would be the one retweeting it, what with the crowd he fell into
You could have the best artists, the best programmers in the world, you still won't go far without proper management and team leadership.
This is why you get so many first time developers that despite getting a lot of extra funding through kickstarter and early access still fail to deliver, being able to work as a team is EXTREMELY important.
[QUOTE=_Axel;47272432]Again, what's the point of pushing diversity for the sake of diversity? If lack of diversity is due to discriminatory practices, then it is a problem because it treats people unfairly. If it is due to lack of interest, then who exactly is treated unfairly? You talk about possible reasons for this lack of interest, and try to propose ways to change that, but so far you haven't explained the [U]purpose[/U] of doing so.[/QUOTE]
Representation is important. In [I]I'm The One That I Want[/I], Margaret Cho talked about how she had no role models on TV as she was growing up, as the presentation of asians tended to be extras on MASH and prostitutes (sucky sucky five dolla!), and how it affected her and her dreams of having her own comedy TV show. She didn't feel like there was room in the industry for someone that looked like her, and it affected her self-esteem (along with the many other factors).
When she finally did get her own TV show, All-American Girl (featuring the first all-Asian-American cast in US TV sitcom history) she faced terrible racism and body-shaming from the industry during production (the studio hired a consultant to follow her around and get her to act "more asian" like using chopsticks instead of utensils; after a few episodes of oriental stereotype behaviour, the entire cast except her was fired and replaced because the show was [I]too[/I] asian). Now, Hollywood's definitely had racism problems for a long time, and I would hope that the games industry is friendlier to minority devs than Hollywood was to minority actors 20-25 years ago, but my point remains: Representation is a deep, subtle cultural invitation/deflection.
When Elvis Presley was first starting out and becoming a hit, some radio stations refused to play his records on the air, because they'd never seen or heard of him and assumed he was black, and this was the era when you didn't play certain kinds of records if you were a "respectable" station -- erasing representation and legitimacy and maintaining cultural firewalls.
These are examples from TV and music, but it comes down to representation and the subtle and insidious nudges and shifts it makes in people when the balance is out.
To be clear, and I've said this before, I don't think the situation is as bad as Full Mickey would like everyone to believe, but there is a legitimate core to anti-gamergate's arguments, buried deep under the bullshit and professional victim money, and it's been my lament for months that there was an opportunity to actually discuss the elephants in the room in gaming that was completely blown away the moment Anita stepped in and made it about her and FemFreq.
Of course there is some legitimacey to the core of AGGs arguments but they are doing nothing to adress it and in some cases make it worse.
If you went up to most gamers and said well there are very few of X group represented lets change that with this constructive initiative.They would support that.The Fine Young Capitalists did as such and gamers supported the initiative while proto AGG shit all over it and tried to sabotage it.
Its as if they want the problems to stay there so they have some sort of hobby writing smear pieces against subcultures.
[QUOTE=JesseR92;47272827]Its as if they want the problems to stay there so they have some sort of hobby writing smear pieces against subcultures.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;47272764]professional victim money[/QUOTE]
Can't milk the cow after you've let it realize it doesn't actually exist.
[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;47272764]Representation is important. In [I]I'm The One That I Want[/I], Margaret Cho talked about how she had no role models on TV as she was growing up, as the presentation of asians tended to be extras on MASH and prostitutes (sucky sucky five dolla!), and how it affected her and her dreams of having her own comedy TV show. She didn't feel like there was room in the industry for someone that looked like her, and it affected her self-esteem (along with the many other factors).
When she finally did get her own TV show, All-American Girl (featuring the first all-Asian-American cast in US TV sitcom history) she faced terrible racism and body-shaming from the industry during production (the studio hired a consultant to follow her around and get her to act "more asian" like using chopsticks instead of utensils; after a few episodes of oriental stereotype behaviour, the entire cast except her was fired and replaced because the show was [I]too[/I] asian). Now, Hollywood's definitely had racism problems for a long time, and I would hope that the games industry is friendlier to minority devs than Hollywood was to minority actors 20-25 years ago, but my point remains: Representation is a deep, subtle cultural invitation/deflection.
When Elvis Presley was first starting out and becoming a hit, some radio stations refused to play his records on the air, because they'd never seen or heard of him and assumed he was black, and this was the era when you didn't play certain kinds of records if you were a "respectable" station -- erasing representation and legitimacy and maintaining cultural firewalls.
These are examples from TV and music, but it comes down to representation and the subtle and insidious nudges and shifts it makes in people when the balance is out.
To be clear, and I've said this before, I don't think the situation is as bad as Full Mickey would like everyone to believe, but there is a legitimate core to anti-gamergate's arguments, buried deep under the bullshit and professional victim money, and it's been my lament for months that there was an opportunity to actually discuss the elephants in the room in gaming that was completely blown away the moment Anita stepped in and made it about her and FemFreq.[/QUOTE]
I mentioned this a looong time ago and I forgot to get a word in earlier, but I think a big portion of FemFreq's supporters are aware that she focuses too much on the patriarchy, exaggerates and lies about things, and steals footage. I've asked around before, and a few people replied that they support her mostly because there aren't any better-known advocates for equality in gaming. She's gotten worldwide mainstream recognition and near-universal respect, awards, a huge following - most people take her word seriously. McIntosh's psychopathy and the cult mentality are seen as 'necessary evils' for the greater goal of minority representation in videogames. If she's exposed as a con artist, they don't count on another, better spokesperson rising from the ashes - they believe that affirmative action for minorities will be seen as a joke, minority activists will be received by 'stop using alts anita', and social justice in games would slide back 10 years. I see their point even if I disagree completely.
That's ignoring the even bigger portion of her fans who aren't even aware of the bad things because comments and criticism are blocked out and the 'universal mainstream respect' comes from lies and narrative-pushing, but whatever.
[QUOTE=TurtleeyFP;47273048]I mentioned this a looong time ago and I forgot to get a word in earlier, but I think a big portion of FemFreq's supporters are aware that she focuses too much on the patriarchy, exaggerates and lies about things, and steals footage. I've asked around before, and a few people replied that they support her mostly because there aren't any better-known advocates for equality in gaming. She's gotten worldwide mainstream recognition and near-universal respect, awards, a huge following - most people take her word seriously. McIntosh's psychopathy and the cult mentality are seen as 'necessary evils' for the greater goal of minority representation in videogames. If she's exposed as a con artist, they don't count on another, better spokesperson rising from the ashes - they believe that affirmative action for minorities will be seen as a joke, minority activists will be received by 'stop using alts anita', and social justice in games would slide back 10 years. I see their point even if I disagree completely.
That's ignoring the even bigger portion of her fans who aren't even aware of the bad things because comments and criticism are blocked out and the 'universal mainstream respect' comes from lies and narrative-pushing, but whatever.[/QUOTE]
they shouldn't be supporting her if they think all that will happen if she's known to all as a fraud. they should be fucking livid with her and mcinjosh for fucking over social justice
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;47273115]they shouldn't be supporting her if they think all that will happen if she's known to all as a fraud. they should be fucking livid with her and mcinjosh for fucking over social justice[/QUOTE]
I feel that feminism in gaming and Anita are fusing into one thing. All of the big talk and buzzwords you hear about feminism in gaming comes from her videos, not other sources nor schools of feminism. Attacking Anita means you attack all of feminism.
This is really dangerous because the legitimacy of feminism in games depends on Anita's image. I get the feeling that she'll eventually collapse and when that happens, she'll take feminism in gaming with her.
[QUOTE=Ziron;47273225]I feel that feminism in gaming and Anita are fusing into one thing. All of the big talk and buzzwords you hear about feminism in gaming comes from her videos, not other sources nor schools of feminism. Attacking Anita means you attack all of feminism.
This is really dangerous because the legitimacy of feminism in games depends on Anita's image. I get the feeling that she'll eventually collapse and when that happens, she'll take feminism in gaming with her.[/QUOTE]
I honestly believe that if she collapses, she will take all of modern western (aka 3rd wave) feminism with her. She's pretty much become a leading figurehead for western feminism in general, not just feminism in gaming, and GamerGate is no small contributor to that image. If the truth about GamerGate finally gets released to the mainstream public, it will cast doubts on the legitimacy of not only her, but every notable 3rd-waver out there who have wasted no time voicing their support for her.
I honestly don't know whether that should be considered a bad thing or not.
[QUOTE=Xenomoose;47273253]I honestly believe that if she collapses, she will take all of modern western (aka 3rd wave) feminism with her. She's pretty much become a leading figurehead for western feminism in general, not just feminism in gaming, and GamerGate is no small contributor to that image. [B]If the truth about GamerGate finally gets released to the mainstream public[/B], it will cast doubts on the legitimacy of not only her, but every notable 3rd-waver out there who have wasted no time voicing their support for her.
I honestly don't know whether that should be considered a bad thing or not.[/QUOTE]
Gameragate will forever be known as a harassment campaign
What we can realistically expect is that AGG keeps shooting itself in the foot and as such, their reputation won't survive either
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47272492]Okay, so let me ask you this, what would you have the conversation be like then? And what would that entail? We're open to new ideas, you can say we're close minded or what have you, but that doesn't make it true. If someone presents a bad argument, empty statements or hollow accusations, they are going to be called out for that. If someone brought up a valid point, they would be accepted and the argument along with them. This idea that we have to not only let bad ideas stand as equally as good ones in the name of some form of politeness is asinine.
People shouldn't make argumentative posts if they don't/can't handle the argument itself. You want to argue your ideas? Prepare to have them tested as thoroughly as you desire to test someone else.[/QUOTE]
A lot less emotional I would say. When people were seeking opposing opinions, I thought it was a matter of interest and seeing what sort of perspective they have, even if it's ill-informed. There just isn't much to gain from jumping on AGGers who post in this thread. These bad arguments probably make sense to them, they're no doubt ones that are circulating in their circles as fact and sound opinion. This is just simply what they believe, and if they didn't believe it well then they're not likely to be AGG. Just seems like Catch-22 to me.
[QUOTE=Ziron;47273225]I feel that feminism in gaming and Anita are fusing into one thing. All of the big talk and buzzwords you hear about feminism in gaming comes from her videos, not other sources nor schools of feminism. Attacking Anita means you attack all of feminism.
This is really dangerous because the legitimacy of feminism in games depends on Anita's image. I get the feeling that she'll eventually collapse and when that happens, she'll take feminism in gaming with her.[/QUOTE]
It's a shame there aren't more feminist critiques of games, and what there is doesn't get attention because the people doing it usually don't have the funds to get themselves out there and get known. It's one of those awful catch-22s (well, this might be the wrong word but fuck it), she has significantly increased the awareness for feminist critique, but at the same time managed to fuck it up so hard that everyone assumes it's all going to be like that, so it gets ignored.
[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;47272764]When she finally did get her own TV show, All-American Girl (featuring the first all-Asian-American cast in US TV sitcom history) she faced terrible racism and body-shaming from the industry during production (the studio hired a consultant to follow her around and get her to act "more asian" like using chopsticks instead of utensils; after a few episodes of oriental stereotype behaviour, the entire cast except her was fired and replaced because the show was [I]too[/I] asian). Now, Hollywood's definitely had racism problems for a long time, and I would hope that the games industry is friendlier to minority devs than Hollywood was to minority actors 20-25 years ago, but my point remains: Representation is a deep, subtle cultural invitation/deflection.
When Elvis Presley was first starting out and becoming a hit, some radio stations refused to play his records on the air, because they'd never seen or heard of him and assumed he was black, and this was the era when you didn't play certain kinds of records if you were a "respectable" station -- erasing representation and legitimacy and maintaining cultural firewalls.
These are examples from TV and music, but it comes down to representation and the subtle and insidious nudges and shifts it makes in people when the balance is out.[/QUOTE]
All of those examples illustrate instances of racism or sexism, not the consequences of underrepresentation... The only link it has with representation is that discrimination tends to curb it, which is basically what I explained in my original post: Lack of representation is a symptom of discrimination, not a cause. If you find yourself in a situation with a lot of the former and practically none of the latter, it means the lack of representation is due to something else and is thus not necessarily a problem.
The only part of your post that actually address my question is this one:
[QUOTE]Representation is important. In [I]I'm The One That I Want[/I], Margaret Cho talked about how she had no role models on TV as she was growing up, as the presentation of asians tended to be extras on MASH and prostitutes (sucky sucky five dolla!), and how it affected her and her dreams of having her own comedy TV show. She didn't feel like there was room in the industry for someone that looked like her, and it affected her self-esteem (along with the many other factors).[/QUOTE]
Which basically boils down to being due to racism in the industry to me. If underrepresentation were the only factor at hand, it most likely wouldn't have been a problem. When it comes to art, content creators usually don't see a lack of the type of content they want to create as a hindrance. If that was the case, artistic trends wouldn't be a thing in the first place and art would be an endless repetition of the same stuff ad nauseam, which obviously isn't the case. To the contrary, it should be seen as an opportunity to innovate and shine as an artist!
[QUOTE=Xenomoose;47273253]I honestly believe that if she collapses, [B]she will take all of modern western (aka 3rd wave) feminism with her[/B]. She's pretty much become a leading figurehead for western feminism in general, not just feminism in gaming, and GamerGate is no small contributor to that image. If the truth about GamerGate finally gets released to the mainstream public, it will cast doubts on the legitimacy of not only her, but every notable 3rd-waver out there who have wasted no time voicing their support for her.
I honestly don't know whether that should be considered a bad thing or not.[/QUOTE]
Pfffahahaha fuck off she will.
Third wave feminism is much larger than Anita, the only people who would be affected by this would be gamers really. Anita is a blip on the radar of third wave thought, she's not a leading academic, she's really not as influential as the Internet would have you believe, she's just a mouthpiece.
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;47273115]they shouldn't be supporting her if they think all that will happen if she's known to all as a fraud. they should be fucking livid with her and mcinjosh for fucking over social justice[/QUOTE]
See, I don't consider people who are trying to fix legitimate social issues to be SJWs. SJWs are the ones who try and use social issues to impose morality policing. Look at the current shit that Wu and company are trying to fling at Nvidia for having exotic dancers at their party. They can't say "I don't like it, so I won't go." Instead, it's "I don't like it, so if you do it, I'm going to try and fling as much shit your way as I can until you stop, even if I didn't want to partake anyways." This honestly gets on my last nerve, mainly because I'm a live and let live type of person. I'll do things how I want, and you do things how you want. If what you're doing isn't bigoted or illegal, then I don't care as long as I'm not affected, and I expect the same in return.
(snipped video because someone already posted)
The "gateway to the industry" developers are going through is pretty soon going to end up as a checkpoint, where only certain types of developers are "allowed access" to the industry in regards to networking. You think there are a lot of "hipster" indie developers now, just wait until they really start filtering people.
[QUOTE=JohnnyGoGo;47273298]A lot less emotional I would say. When people were seeking opposing opinions, I thought it was a matter of interest and seeing what sort of perspective they have, even if it's ill-informed. There just isn't much to gain from jumping on AGGers who post in this thread. These bad arguments probably make sense to them, they're no doubt ones that are circulating in their circles as fact and sound opinion. This is just simply what they believe, and if they didn't believe it well then they're not likely to be AGG. Just seems like Catch-22 to me.[/QUOTE]
So you're not saying "less emotional". You're saying "Not about the issues".
In order for a discussion to happen, people have to disagree, exchange information, and value ideas based on their merits, or else it's literally idle chit chat. I'm not emotional when I deconstruct an argument or something someone says.
You want us to meet people who come from an echo chamber with "hello, welcome to a new place that will be an echo chamber for you just like the last place". You want people to genuinely be disingenuous, not kind or polite, but lie and not talk about things from their honest point of view.
honestly, I don't think you're helping by adding these needless limits to conversations that hinder them by their very nature.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;47273339]Pfffahahaha fuck off she will.
Third wave feminism is much larger than Anita, the only people who would be affected by this would be gamers really. Anita is a blip on the radar of third wave thought, she's not a leading academic, she's really not as influential as the Internet would have you believe, she's just a mouthpiece.[/QUOTE]
Well, to be honest, until this whole thing I never knew 3rd wave feminism was a thing, so I still don't really know the 3rd wave "hierarchy", so to speak. Still, she's got a large presence in the right circles and a lot of support from people both inside and out of the gaming industry. If she goes down, all of their credibility will become suspect. The point is, whatever happens with her, the after-effects won't just be limited to the gaming industry.
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