Corruption in Gaming Journalism Discussion V2 - Back from the dead!
5,003 replies, posted
coming soon in 64 posts is the end of the thread.
prepare for ethics part 3.
[QUOTE=Wii60;47285459]coming soon in 64 posts is the end of the thread.
prepare for ethics part 3.[/QUOTE]Corruption in Gaming V3: Ethics? Hah! What are those? Feed my Patreon!
When did it become a gamergate talking point that sexism in the media can't cause sexism in real life? I mean, for adults that aren't already sexist it's true, but for children it can have an effect and for people who already have sexist beliefs, it can reinforce them. Most of you would agree with this, right?
Corruption in Gaming V3: Don't call it a grave, it's the future you chose
[url]https://archive.today/9BI6B[/url]
And the "journalist's" opinion now on the GTA5 ban from Target.
[url]https://archive.today/Fx7qW[/url]
Corruption in Gaming V3: PixelGoth's Doxx inside!
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;47285518]When did it become a gamergate talking point that sexism in the media can't cause sexism in real life? I mean, for adults that aren't already sexist it's true, but for children it can have an effect and for people who already have sexist beliefs, it can reinforce them. Most of you would agree with this, right?[/QUOTE]
The extensive studies showing that violence in videogames does not result in more violent behaviour?
Also this notion that, depicting == endorsing is absolutely ludicrous.
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;47285518]When did it become a gamergate talking point that sexism in the media can't cause sexism in real life? I mean, for adults that aren't already sexist it's true, but for children it can have an effect and for people who already have sexist beliefs, it can reinforce them. Most of you would agree with this, right?[/QUOTE]It falls in line with the idea that video games/movies/tv/music are making people violent. The evidence for it is poor at best, and the majority of support for it comes simply from people reaffirming their belief that it happens, without a lot of good evidence on the matter. Hence why people like Anita regularly get compared to Jack Thompson, their arguments are the same, they just target a different idea to latch on to.
[QUOTE=Thlis;47285541]The extensive studies showing that violence in videogames does not result in more violent behaviour?.[/QUOTE]
That's violence though. It's fallacious to think that would automatically apply to sexism unless there were studies done about that as well.
But I thought it was a commonly accepted thing that media, even fictional media, affects the way we think about things. I mean, it won't cause someone who is against sexism to suddenly become sexist, but it can affect impressionable people (like children) and it can reinforce the beliefs someone already has.
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;47285547]That's violence though. It's fallacious to think that would automatically apply to sexism unless there were studies done about that as well.[/QUOTE]Not really. They both actually related in what would need to happen. Its just that one prompts violent thoughts, the other prompts sexist thoughts. Those in turn leading to violent actions or sexist actions.
Can se switch from "Corruption in gaming journalism" to "Corruption in the gaming industry"?
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;47285547]
But I thought it was a commonly accepted thing that media, even fictional media, affects the way we think about things. I mean, it won't cause someone who is against sexism to suddenly become sexist, but it can affect impressionable people (like children) and it can reinforce the beliefs someone already has.[/QUOTE]
I am going to be pretty blunt on this.
I am sick to death of this fucking min maxing shit we are trying to apply to content. It is now objectionable to see ANYTHING that could POSSIBLY contribute to a sexist attitude. Even if something like the Witcher 2, shows the horror of it in a controlled environment. No, that could POSSIBLY contribute to one person being sexist. What exactly is our future if we can't just deal with the fact that some people will see things and believe things that others object to?
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;47285547]but it can affect impressionable people (like children) and it can [B]reinforce the beliefs someone already has.[/B][/QUOTE]
You already stated that it would not change someones mind so if it can't change someone's mind, what has it actually done?
[QUOTE=Annoyed Grunt;47285562]Can se switch from "Corruption in gaming journalism" to "Corruption in the gaming industry"?[/QUOTE]Indeed, its moved beyond just journalism. The whole gaming industry is rotten. Its getting close to the point its not about saving the orchard, its about saving the few good fruits before clearing it out and replanting.
[QUOTE=Thlis;47285565]I am going to be pretty blunt on this.
I am sick to death of this fucking min maxing shit we are trying to apply to content. It is now objectionable to see ANYTHING that could POSSIBLY contribute to a sexist attitude. Even if something like the Witcher 2, shows the horror of it in a controlled environment.[/quote]
I'm not going to disagree that a lot of people have gone to far and are just looking for things to complain about, but that has nothing to do with the question.
[quote]You already stated that it would not change someones mind so if it can't change someone's mind, what has it actually done?[/QUOTE]
You don't understand what "reinforcing belief" means?
[QUOTE=Annoyed Grunt;47285562]Can se switch from "Corruption in gaming journalism" to "Corruption in the gaming industry"?[/QUOTE]
Corruption in the Gaming Industry: We've Leveled Up
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;47285572]You don't understand what "reinforcing belief" means?[/QUOTE]
To be perfectly frank I would like an example that wouldn't result in requiring the censorship of every form of media in history.
What couldn't reinforce anyones belief and how exactly could that possibly be prevented without requiring censorship?
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;47285518]When did it become a gamergate talking point that sexism in the media can't cause sexism in real life? I mean, for adults that aren't already sexist it's true, but for children it can have an effect and for people who already have sexist beliefs, it can reinforce them. Most of you would agree with this, right?[/QUOTE]
Generally games aimed at kids tend to be pretty mundane with the themes they get across to. Kids don't look at a Mario game and see Bowser kidnapping Peach and Mario saving her as an act of sexism but more of a call-to-action. Most kids I've observed that play games like this have the mentality of "Bad guy did something bad, I should stop him." It's not something that has to do with a boy or a girl, but instead it's a player being thrust into motion (even if it's a paper-thin story) to get gameplay started.
While children are impressionable, they're not generally going to look that deep into a story as an adult would. Good parenting tends to not let a child learn their morals and values from media, be it books, television, movies, or games. It's not as cut and dry as "X causes sexism/violence!" No, there are far more factors in play and a sub-par upbringing tends to be more influential on a malleable child than any media can be.
Confirmation bias can cement an already-convinced adult in their conviction (sexism, racism, etc). But for a child, I'd place blame on parents not exposing their child to any variety. Let the kid play with his/her peers. People tend to fear things that are different from them, and being exposed at a young age to things that are viewed as different can teach them that there's not as large of a difference as thought beforehand. Again, I place more responsibility on parenting than on media; media should not be doing the parenting itself, that's the parent's job. Although in cases where the parent themselves are indoctrinating their child, it's best to at least teach the child to ask questions. Discussion can go a long way when things don't explode into a flurry of insults and shit-slinging.
I actually don't think sexism in video games is a big problem, although there could be more good female protagonists (even though there's quite a few already). I'm talking about media as a whole, throughout history (not just now).
Corruption in the Gaming Industry v3 - So corrupt it's written by Chris Metzen
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;47285572]I'm not going to disagree that a lot of people have gone to far and are just looking for things to complain about, but that has nothing to do with the question.
You don't understand what "reinforcing belief" means?[/QUOTE]
If someone is already a sexist or a rapist, seeing a video game where the main character has big breasts is not going to make them more of a sexist or a rapist.
Or are you of the belief that a child seeing Mario rescuing Princess Peach is going to immediately make a young boy want to take psychedelic mushrooms, smash turtles and kidnap adult women?
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;47284836]With how Gamergate has been handled for the last few months, I feel this is somewhat relevant: [URL="http://www.reddit.com/r/SuicideWatch/comments/2ybtuh/someone_lied_about_me_and_got_me_expelled_from/"]Some guy on Reddit's SuicideWatch is talking about how he lost his scholarship and got kicked out of school for p.much talking to someone else about different bone structures relating to eyes.[/URL][/QUOTE]
this is seriously making me shudder with anger. i hope that everything turns out OK with him when he contacts the ACLU or FIRE
Maybe our focus in the next thread, right from the OP, can be to try and work out a solution that respects and advances women (basically non-insane feminism) while also defending creative expression and holding corrupt feet to the fire. And I think it can be done, but it'll require more than just us.
Anita is seen as the only option other than rapist etc gamers. GG needs to identify voices of reason that can pick up the torch and fight the fight Anita claims to be fighting, only with integrity. We need to steal the default-option silent majority out from under them with a sane alternative.
And by Gamergate I mean everyone sane on both sides - antis who are anti because of the trolling and harassment on Twitter and shit can probably agree with the pro side on many things if we imagine that the debate had always featured mature grown adults arguing their desires for change with rational supported arguments and proper communication skills, and had never involved trolling and mandatory groupthink. Where the debate needs to be is what to do about it, because that's where the sides differ the most. A lot of animosity has been created between the two sides of the argument over drama and dumb bickering, and agg poisoned the well almost immediately in order to get GG stuck in mud, and here we are, months later, still fighting fundamentally the same things over and over.
There's a chance that we can build momentum for a rational feminist message that can swallow up the moderates who have nowhere else to go but Tim's Puppet Palace. And I earnestly mean that we support the voices of sane women, so we can snatch the conversation away from the corrupt and the insane pits of Twitter and Reddit.
FP has a neutral-ground support-your-shit-if-called-on-it kind of policy, so I believe we could make some progress. We could invite some moderate agg'ers and some of the more prominent and involved (but not, to our knowledge, FPers, hi Xavier) pro-GGers here, but eventually it's going to have to go beyond FP and go into the arena of public opinion. We'd need to develop a solid message and get videos about it, good ones that can do what FemFreq never would.
The digging into corruption would continue, mind, I'm not looking to stop that, just take the wind out of the opposition's sails.
Maybe I'm an optimist, but we're one of the few open debate territories left where mods will not ban anyone for opinion, only shitposting. A new thread would be the perfect time to commit to a new focus and try to shorten this bullshit. AGG will eventually eat itself but they'll be able to keep going for ages on deception and manipulation.
[QUOTE=Thlis;47285521]
And the "journalist's" opinion now on the GTA5 ban from Target.
[url]https://archive.today/Fx7qW[/url][/QUOTE]
I don't understand this.
Also for the next thread, could someone add to the OP ways we can help? I feel like it is time we helped rather than obverse and help whenever.
[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;47285613]Maybe our focus in the next thread, right from the OP, can be to try and work out a solution that respects and advances women (basically non-insane feminism) while also defending creative expression and holding corrupt feet to the fire. And I think it can be done, but it'll require more than just us.
Anita is seen as the only option other than rapist etc gamers. GG needs to identify voices of reason that can pick up the torch and fight the fight Anita claims to be fighting, only with integrity. We need to steal the default-option silent majority out from under them with a sane alternative.
And by Gamergate I mean everyone sane on both sides - antis who are anti because of the trolling and harassment on Twitter and shit can probably agree with the pro side on many things if we imagine that the debate had always featured mature grown adults arguing their desires for change with rational supported arguments and proper communication skills, and had never involved trolling and mandatory groupthink. Where the debate needs to be is what to do about it, because that's where the sides differ the most. A lot of animosity has been created between the two sides of the argument over drama and dumb bickering, and agg poisoned the well almost immediately in order to get GG stuck in mud, and here we are, months later, still fighting fundamentally the same things over and over.
There's a chance that we can build momentum for a rational feminist message that can swallow up the moderates who have nowhere else to go but Tim's Puppet Palace. And I earnestly mean that we support the voices of sane women, so we can snatch the conversation away from the corrupt and the insane pits of Twitter and Reddit.
FP has a neutral-ground support-your-shit-if-called-on-it kind of policy, so I believe we could make some progress. We could invite some moderate agg'ers and some of the more prominent and involved (but not, to our knowledge, FPers) pro-GGers here, but eventually it's going to have to go beyond FP and go into the arena of public opinion. We'd need to develop a solid message and get videos about it, good ones that can do what FemFreq never would.
The digging into corruption would continue, mind, I'm not looking to stop that, just take the wind out of the opposition's sails.
Maybe I'm an optimist, but we're one of the few open debate territories left where mods will not ban anyone for opinion, only shitposting. A new thread would be the perfect time to commit to a new focus and try to shorten this bullshit. AGG will eventually eat itself but they'll be able to keep going for ages on deception and manipulation.[/QUOTE]
I'm sure there are a few AGG people lurking in the thread, otherwise someone could always pm people and (politely) ask them if they want to participate.
When I said sexism isn't a problem in the gaming industry, I need to take that back. Sexism is a problem at the publisher level. For some reason there are publishers that think that, for instance, female characters don't sell and therefore shouldn't be protagonists, and shouldn't be on cover art. That's a problem.
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;47285641]When I said sexism isn't a problem in the gaming industry, I need to take that back. Sexism is a problem at the publisher level. For some reason there are publishers that think that, for instance, female characters don't sell and therefore shouldn't be protagonists, and shouldn't be on cover art. That's a problem.[/QUOTE]
That makes more sense, it's a problem with blockbuster action movies as well. It's a combination of the fear that the movies won't sell well and the idea that stereotypes are safer than creating an out-of-the-norm character archetype and doing it 'wrong' and pissing everybody off with massive back lash. Groups like Feminist Frequency don't really help with that. AAA video games and big budget action movies are all about playing it safe because they work with big budgets and have a lot of time constraints.
A combination of very successful HBO shows and having at least one very successful female action movie character (like maybe Wonder Woman in the upcoming Batman versus Superman movie) would pretty much alleviate those concerns in the eyes of publishers and producers because they're ultimately more concerned about risk assessment in terms of profit margins rather than artistic quality.
There are some people who are anti, but the majority is overwhelmingly pro, so they get megaphoned often enough. If we decide to go with this, we need to set some rules of engagement to encourage debate and honest communication and minimize shitposting so that those who are anti feel they can speak out without the whole thread turning on them.
Drama is a distraction that benefits the corrupt.
It'd be really amazing if, once we got our act together enough to show our work to people outside FP (not that this isn't in public anyway), we got TB on board. A message that addresses both the sane feminist's concerns as well as pressing ahead with sunlight on the industry as a whole going out to his twitter feed alone would be a game-changer, especially if we could reframe the debate to not be run according to the queen bees of the hivemind.
[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;47285665]There are some people who are anti, but the majority is overwhelmingly pro, so they get megaphoned often enough. We need to set some rules of engagement to encourage debate and honest communication and minimize shitposting so that those who are anti feel they can speak out without the whole thread turning on them.
Drama is a distraction that benefits the corrupt.
It'd be really amazing if, once we got our act together enough to show our work to people outside FP (not that this isn't in public anyway), we got TB on board. A message that addresses both the sane feminist's concerns as well as pressing ahead with sunlight on the industry as a whole going out to his twitter feed alone would be a game-changer, especially if we could reframe the debate to not be run according to the queen bees of the hivemind.[/QUOTE]
We could elect one person to argue for each side at a time, kind of like an actual debate. That person could nominate someone else to take over whenever they like, and everyone else can still make comments and corrections without directly attacking the person or their argument, kind of like an actual debate.
[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;47285665]There are some people who are anti, but the majority is overwhelmingly pro, so they get megaphoned often enough. If we decide to go with this, we need to set some rules of engagement to encourage debate and honest communication and minimize shitposting so that those who are anti feel they can speak out without the whole thread turning on them.
Drama is a distraction that benefits the corrupt.
It'd be really amazing if, once we got our act together enough to show our work to people outside FP (not that this isn't in public anyway), we got TB on board. A message that addresses both the sane feminist's concerns as well as pressing ahead with sunlight on the industry as a whole going out to his twitter feed alone would be a game-changer, especially if we could reframe the debate to not be run according to the queen bees of the hivemind.[/QUOTE]
TB is getting WAY too involved in the drama though.
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;47285680]TB is getting WAY too involved in the drama though.[/QUOTE]
I think after almost dying, he probably doesn't give a fuck any more. It would probably be better for him (and maybe for everybody else as well) if he laid back just a little bit. I don't want him to end up Lenining it.
He's free to do whatever he wants. At least he's smart enough that even when he fucks up, he knows it and owns up to it. He has in the past and I'm not really concerned for the future.
What I'm more worried about is KiA's e-celebing. It's retarded and detracts from the whole movement.
[QUOTE=Wii60;47285538]Corruption in Gaming V3: PixelGoth's Doxx inside![/QUOTE]
Corruption in Gaming v3: Quit qettin' mad about corruption
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