• Corruption in Gaming Journalism Discussion V2 - Back from the dead!
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Ryulong is all over the Rational Wiki page. He needs a life.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;47062028]I want to ask GG supporters, what do you think of people who say stuff like "both sides are stupid" or similar?[/QUOTE] I feel like that is absolutely true. Trolls have every right to be GG as the people who actually take the issues seriously, as do trolls have the right to be anti-GG. So both sides have their own brand of stupidity, GG has the people that believe Anita is creating a new world order or something, while anti-GG has people on tumblr posting pictures of mugs inscribed with, "male tears". If you're willing to look past those idiots however, we can get closer to what, I at least, understand as the real issues. GG wants game journalism to move away from what it has been doing, that is to say, games journalism has traditionally been opinion pieces for children's toys. This isn't to say that GG wants to kill off anyone who wants to write an opinion piece, those have value and a right to exist, but there should be a clear line between opinion and journalism. Basically, games are blooming into an art form, and journalism can either hamper or promote its growth, GG has decided that it's time it stops hampering and starts helping. Anti-GG seems to me to be made up of two different groups, the first being feminists that think GG is against inclusive culture in games, and let's be honest, they have a reason to worry with all the trolls throwing shit on our side. However, I believe when both sides calm the fuck down and talk to each other like civilized people, both groups will find out that not only is there common ground, it's almost nothing BUT common ground. Just to be clear, feminists do not include trolls that post pictures of those stupid mugs, I'm talking about actual feminists who have real concerns about GG's motives. The second group I believe are the journalists that are fighting tooth and nail to keep the current system they have in place. Once again, I can't blame them, it's hard to make a living out of video games, I sure as hell know that, and now that they have it, they don't want to give it up. The thing is, all they had to do was give GG a pound of flesh and be done with it, all GG wanted was disclosure, honesty, and transparency. We all know people make mistakes, and all would have been forgiven, especially since we all knew that there was corruption and took this long to make a concerted effort against it. Sadly, things have gotten way out of hand, as you can see, some GG's are so pissed off about the treatment they got, they probably won't stop until the ones responsible are held accountable. That's just my opinion on this whole mess though, as an outsider of both parties no less, so take it with a grain of salt.
the issue is that there will never be a "calm" down on at least one side of this issue. I know that's a bit of a leap to make, but the attitude of AGGer's has always been "Listen and believe, Ignore and insult" and you can see that even if they were to calm down, they'd ignore whatever we say to repeat themselves. It's just how those types of people function.
[QUOTE=_Axel;47062103]Unless they actually bring arguments to the table, they come across as this: [img]http://i.imgur.com/Djb44ql.png[/img][/QUOTE] I disagree, if only because "both sides ate stupid" is a massive improvement over the current narrative.
Honestly, the "SJWS ARE TAKING OVER THE WORLD" commenters on the pro-GG side annoy me more and more every time come across 'em, but anti-GG's flagship personalities are such orders of magnitudes more repulsive in how they act that I'm willing to overlook it.
You know what immediately gives it away with an 'us or them' mindset that's not real? When these people say "You're neutral", they never mean it in a "You're neutral and thereby supporting us" unless being neutral on the matter literally is the 'pro' side- eg pro-choice where you're neutral on what you want a woman to do with her body. What they mean is "You're not supporting us [I]enough[/I], and I take that as a personal attack, not just on this entire group of people of whom you might not have even heard, but also myself." It's not just 'Us vs them', it's 'Me vs everybody else'. [editline]2nd February 2015[/editline] This happens with people from all different types of opinions, including some Gamergate people, but it's unbelievably apparent with some of the big name AGGers; hence why Zoe Quinn and Brianna Wu, for instance, keep having little spats.
[QUOTE=Jamsponge;47061722]Have any big anti-GG actually been permanently harassed off Twitter? I've seen some people leave for like, a week, but never any more than that. [editline]2nd February 2015[/editline] I just find it so strange that they're constantly lambasting us because we've apparently driven everyone off social networks (when normally it's just some random dickheads saying some nasty shit), whereas most of the GG people who've left Twitter have been specifically harassed by a single person or very small group of people over a very long period.[/QUOTE] I looked at his twitter and he provides very compelling evidence that she was harassing him, particularly constantly tweeting about him not being a data science and to "report him" to educational institutions. Hypocritcally, the first thing I saw when I went to her page was "Donate to my patreon because I stand for anti-harassment." She basically keeps trying to "prove" he isn't a data scientist, despite having blocked him and vice versa, but.. [url]http://arxiv.org/pdf/1501.07621v1.pdf[/url] He is very real, and she did send people to harass him directly. Anybody who attempts to claim GG harasses, show them this stuff, and when they attempt to say "It's just ONE of our people" - call them out on that. P.S, no anti-gg has been "chased off twitter" - they basically rely it on it to relay information to their fanbase and remain relevant. [editline]2nd February 2015[/editline] Interesting article by kotaku that hates a portal 2 review because it was ethical : [url]https://archive.today/1GiID[/url] Yeah, really.
[QUOTE=Comrade_Eko;47061824]Why is extra credits anti-GG anyway? Why is Jim Sterling anti-GG? [/QUOTE] [url]http://www.gamingaswomen.com/posts/2013/06/an-interview-with-jim-sterling-about-sexism-in-game-culture/[/url][QUOTE]Wundergeek: My biggest question for you is why? What happened that caused you to change your views about sexism in the game industry? What was the turning point? Was there a specific event, or was it a gradual evolution? And what did that feel like for you? Jim Sterling: You can hold a mirror up to a person as many times as you like, but only the person can look. The nature of online interaction is such that one can pick and choose the things they have to confront, and I simply chose not to confront the idea I was supporting sexism in any way. I’ve taken to calling my prior attitude, as well as the attitude of other members of the gaming community, the “obviously not” syndrome. In my mind, I “obviously” wasn’t a sexist because I didn’t believe in mistreating women, in hurting women, that sort of more extreme activity the cursory glancer associates with sexism. That’s the insidious thing about misogyny and privilege — you never really think of the subtle things, the more sinister harmful things you may be perpetuating. Making jokes about feminist, being “satirical,” calling someone a “feminazi slut,” it was all fine and dandy, because I “obviously” didn’t mean it, and “obviously” didn’t think I was a bad person. The trouble is, when you start telling yourself it’s “obvious,” you give yourself no further cause to actually reflect on yourself or your behavior. I don’t think it was any one thing that changed my mind, though I would strongly credit the work of writers such as yourself for putting under the microscope that which I was unwilling to. I owe a great deal as well to my wife, who has become a more vocal feminist herself over the years, and who patiently educated me in the ways of becoming a more inclusive, more positive influence on the gaming community. [B]I’ve also been blessed with excellent friends who possess strong feminist views — a writer local to me by the name of Tom Head, as well as Colette Bennett and, more recently, [U]Leigh Alexander[/U]. Being in the presence of such people has been of amazing benefit to me and the evolution of my career.[/B][/QUOTE]
Well if one reflects on themselves hard enough, they might just find out that they're not only sexist, but also homophobic, racist and genocidal. That's the nature of [b]influenced[/b] self-reflection. If you haven't found out that you're sexist, you just haven't look deep enough! Try some more. Hell, that's why in totalitarian regimes people often give themselves in for doubting the ideology. Bear in mind, I'm not implying 'cultural marxism', it's just that the mechanism's the same, some use it consciously to achieve certain results, others have no clue on what they're doing.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47062240]Ryulong is all over the Rational Wiki page. He needs a life.[/QUOTE] How is this even possible. It was a piece of slanderous crap before he was involved, it read as a manifesto from top to bottom. What could he even add?
[QUOTE=Doneeh;47061919]Who controls [URL="http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gamergate"]RationalWiki[/URL]? This seems a bit one-sided, and irrational.[/QUOTE] rationalwiki is the liberal version of conservapedia and is just as biased [editline]2nd February 2015[/editline] so has it always been "doxing" because i swear i saw "doxxing" used far more before gamergate became a thing
[QUOTE]I’ve also been blessed with excellent friends who possess strong feminist views[/QUOTE] Perhaps the saddest part about this entire thing is how Radical Feminism is becoming more widely known as simply "Feminism", and actual Feminism is being pushed aside. It was better when someone calling themselves a Feminist wanted equality for everyone, now there's just loads of people who call themselves "Feminist" but believe that "cishet males" need to be constantly reminded to hate themselves for existing. How could a simple wish for equality go so wrong?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47062240]Ryulong is all over the Rational Wiki page. He needs a life.[/QUOTE] People like him tend to be extremely fucked up behind the scenes. I think he's going to be hanging from a fan in a few years.
[QUOTE=Ziron;47059946]Here's an interesting post from KotakuInAction about why sites are suddenly shifting towards social justice and trying to tone down content to appeal to extreme progressives:[/QUOTE] Generally I take posts about someone who works in an industry and is willing to come to your hangout to reinforce how dumb your opposition is with a mountain range of salt. [QUOTE=Ziron;47059946]A bit of of it makes sense. The whole thing is basically a scheme to lure in millenials to sites and keep them. And by millenials, I mean the ones they can actually make a profit off of, not the Google-fu expert that has Adblock Plus and knows exactly how to push someone's buttons. I'm not too sure on the products bit considering how much of the "anti-oppression" stuff is either hand-made by a person or bought through a hole in the wall Esty store.[/QUOTE] That's the problem I see with this post. He talks about people buying this stuff like it's anything but a tiny niche market. I'm sure some obscure websites run advertising that appeals to people like this and have a vested financial interest in keeping them coming back, but I wouldn't say many, and I can't name a single video games website off the top of my head that it would apply to. In fairness though I never really followed much gaming media. [QUOTE=Ziron;47059946]It also makes me believe that extremist SJ-types are becoming the American left's Tea Party: overly-trusting people that'll blindly agree with anything as long as it uses the right words and phrasing, extremely vocal about their beliefs yet really don't know a lot about them, and are very intolerant of wrongthink. They won't be setting the world on fire in terms of profits, but you can squeeze out some good bucks if you target them as part of a niche.[/QUOTE] The major difference is that these people really don't exist outside the internet in major numbers, unlike Tea Party adherents, who are a very real (unfortunately) power in American politics, being far more numerous and likely to vote. [QUOTE=itisjuly;47062028]I want to ask GG supporters, what do you think of people who say stuff like "both sides are stupid" or similar?[/QUOTE] I concede that both "sides" have stupid people in them but this doesn't intrinsically make either side stupid. I do think to be anti-gamergate is to be ignorant, but ignorant simply means that you don't have all the information. Everyone is ignorant. As Totalbiscuit said, harassment is harassment. It shouldn't be taken in with the general push for ethics and accountability that consumers desire. [editline]2nd February 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;47063158]Perhaps the saddest part about this entire thing is how Radical Feminism is becoming more widely known as simply "Feminism", and actual Feminism is being pushed aside. It was better when someone calling themselves a Feminist wanted equality for everyone, now there's just loads of people who call themselves "Feminist" but believe that "cishet males" need to be constantly reminded to hate themselves for existing. How could a simple wish for equality go so wrong?[/QUOTE] Actual Radical Feminism has nothing to do with calling people "cishet males" or guilt.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;47063167]Actual Radical Feminism has nothing to do with calling people "cishet males" or guilt.[/QUOTE] That's besides the point, the "feminists" of AGG are the toxicity that is killing feminism. Or mutating it. I don't know which is worse.
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;47063264]That's besides the point, the "feminists" of AGG are the toxicity that is killing feminism. Or mutating it. I don't know which is worse.[/QUOTE] Feminists of AGG aren't killing feminism any more than the harassers, doxxers, and criminals who carry the #gamergate tag are killing gaming. [editline]2nd February 2015[/editline] Small aside but I don't really think that's beside the point at all, you should probably know the people you are criticizing. Radical feminism has a definition and it's not the one you inferred in your post.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;47063285]Feminists of AGG aren't killing feminism any more than the harassers, doxxers, and criminals who carry the #gamergate tag are killing gaming. [editline]2nd February 2015[/editline] Small aside but I don't really think that's beside the point at all, you should probably know the people you are criticizing. Radical feminism has a definition and it's not the one you inferred in your post.[/QUOTE] You can't deny that both his definition of Radical Feminism, and actual Radical Feminism are nonetheless destroying the reputation of Feminism as a whole.
[QUOTE=BigPalooka;47063330]You can't deny that both his definition of Radical Feminism, and actual Radical Feminism are nonetheless destroying the reputation of Feminism as a whole.[/QUOTE] Who is it destroying the reputation of feminism for? People who are unwilling to do their research and let idiots on the internet educate them about what feminism means? This is the same logic that says the reputation of gamergate is being destroyed by harassment, or that the reputation of gamers is being destroyed by the vocal minority of misogynists that inhabit online play spaces. [editline]2nd February 2015[/editline] I can in fact very easily deny that the actual Radical Feminism is destroying the reputation of feminism and instead place the blame on people who are ignorant and too lazy to educate themselves, just as I do the people who throw their hands up and say "welp that guys pro-GG and I saw that pro-GG means pro-misogyny".
[QUOTE=Raidyr;47063401]Who is it destroying the reputation of feminism for? People who are unwilling to do their research and let idiots on the internet educate them about what feminism means?[/QUOTE] You're in the gamergate thread, you should know that image is everything. Gamergate has been slandered to hell and back by videogame and even national media, by the same people promoting their own mutated form of "feminism" which is less about equality and more about shaming others.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;47063401]Who is it destroying the reputation of feminism for? People who are unwilling to do their research and let idiots on the internet educate them about what feminism means? This is the same logic that says the reputation of gamergate is being destroyed by harassment, or that the reputation of gamers is being destroyed by the vocal minority of misogynists that inhabit online play spaces. [editline]2nd February 2015[/editline] I can in fact very easily deny that the actual Radical Feminism is destroying the reputation of feminism and instead place the blame on people who are ignorant and too lazy to educate themselves, just as I do the people who throw their hands up and say "welp that guys pro-GG and I saw that pro-GG means pro-misogyny".[/QUOTE] You're right, that's how the majority of people view it, just as passers-by. And yes, that has been happening to GG this entire time. It just frustrates me that the media is so eager to slant things and say "These people were harassed because they were women, and the people harrasing them do aswell" and not because they had a (probably) false opinion or attitude. I really am just fed up with these "Journalists" taking the easy way out and saying people hate Femenism because they hate women.
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;47063447]You're in the gamergate thread, you should know that image is everything. Gamergate has been slandered to hell and back by videogame and even national media, by the same people promoting their own mutated form of "feminism" which is less about equality and more about shaming others.[/QUOTE] Yes, I'm in the gamergate thread, arguing why its bad to go painting groups with large strokes because of what individuals say. I understand the depth of irony I find myself in.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47062240]Ryulong is all over the Rational Wiki page. He needs a life.[/QUOTE] Why does he even give a shout about what other people might think about anything on this level polarity, much less video games. Who in the fuck is he trying to impress with that kind of herculean obsessiveness about public opinion.
[QUOTE=BigPalooka;47063472]You're right, that's how the majority of people view it, just as passers-by. And yes, that has been happening to GG this entire time. [B]It just frustrates me that the media is so eager to slant things and say "These people were harassed because they were women, and the people harrasing them do aswell" and not because they had a (probably) false opinion or attitude.[/B] I really am just fed up with these "Journalists" taking the easy way out and saying people hate Femenism because they hate women.[/QUOTE] There is a mutual feeling amongst feminists who see the things McIntosh, Sarkeesian, and Alexander say, vehemently disagree with them, then have to put up with the old "radical feminism is destroying feminism" chestnut from people who at best don't care about feminism or at worst are concern trolls. The fuck do you want them to do? All they can say is "That person is wrong".
[QUOTE=Raidyr;47063511]There is a mutual feeling amongst feminists who see the things McIntosh, Sarkeesian, and Alexander say, vehemently disagree with them, then have to put up with the old "radical feminism is destroying feminism" chestnut from people who at best don't care about feminism or at worst are concern trolls. The fuck do you want them to do? All they can say is "That person is wrong".[/QUOTE] The only thing they can really do is to spread the word as far as possible.
[QUOTE=BigPalooka;47063539]The only thing they can really do is to spread the word as far as possible.[/QUOTE] They shouldn't have to though is the point. It's this same logic that is applied to tens of millions of Muslims when a psycopath with nothing to live for and a vague connection to his religion massacres innocents. As long as everyone informs themselves what feminism and radical feminism means than the facts of their respective set of ideas cannot be impacted by something as petty as a "public image". It's not the fault of feminists that people don't know what feminism means, and what seperates a feminist from a political actor using an idealogy as an aegis to push their dogma.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/ajfhfDn.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=Raidyr;47063552]They shouldn't have to though is the point. It's this same logic that is applied to tens of millions of Muslims when a psycopath with nothing to live for and a vague connection to his religion massacres innocents. As long as everyone informs themselves what feminism and radical feminism means than the facts of their respective set of ideas cannot be impacted by something as petty as a "public image". It's not the fault of feminists that people don't know what feminism means, and what seperates a feminist from a political actor using an idealogy as an aegis to push their dogma.[/QUOTE] You don't even have to have an islamaphobia metaphor really, GG of all people should be tired of the, "Do a better job of policing your own!" argument. I think something to be really concerned about is how hard it is to get unbiased information on GG. It took me FAR too long to get a good idea of the situation and decide you guys weren't a misogynistic hate group, and I still don't have a good understanding of what the other side is for.
[quote] Leigh Alexander. Being in the presence of such people has been of amazing benefit to me and the evolution of my career. [/quote] I literally spit out tea way too close to my electronics than is comfortable. She is literally sexist, classist and racist. Not kinda, or "in a certain way" or "from a certain point of view" but balls out, wear it on her sleeve, point it out at any opportunity biased in so many blatant ways, and she very rarely tries to hide it and moreover conducts seminars to show it off to anyone within earshot. I have no idea what he's smoking, but it sounds [I]amazing[/I] and I bet it probably causes or cures cancer as an aside.
[QUOTE=27X;47063673]I literally spit out tea way too close to my electronics than is comfortable. She is literally sexist, classist and racist. Not kinda, or "in a certain way" or "from a certain point of view" but balls out, wear it on her sleeve, point it out at any opportunity biased in so many blatant ways, and she very rarely tries to hide it and moreover conducts seminars to show it off to anyone within earshot. I have no idea what he's smoking, but it sounds [I]amazing[/I] and I bet it probably causes or cures cancer as an aside.[/QUOTE] Well he is freelance now right? I don't blame him for being all about that money as long as he doesn't blame me for not viewing his content or supporting him anymore.
[QUOTE=https://twitter.com/kungfuman316/status/562405067559804928]BREAKING NEWS #GamerGate: @freebsdgirl is suspended![/QUOTE]
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