• [OLD GLOD] Dr Norman Finkelstein makes girl cry at University speech
    44 replies, posted
[QUOTE=J!NX;38577985]that bitch is dumb just because the holocaust happened doesn't justify giving Jews a double standard. (Like that guy said) The real victims are the holocaust are people who actually have suffered. Not the people who just happen to be slightly related. I don't want to hear anyone of any race (African, Irish, etc) bitch about anything that doesn't directly effect them in major ways just because their X race.[/QUOTE] Everyone is a victim...and now this song [video=youtube;-qnZnkZChRY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qnZnkZChRY[/video] is stuck in my head again.
[QUOTE=The Last Man;38575205] I know someone is going to come along and say, "The reason people are anti-Israel is because they are attacking defenseless people and are just hating them". To that I reply this. They are a growing nation and taking the west bank is to make their people's lives easier. Anyone else in the world (with the exception of maybe Africans) really can not even begin to comment on the moral implications of the conflict because of the fact that many countries would not have the land or the power they do without at some point being empirical and taking land from others. [/QUOTE] so what if israel's growing? almost all countries are growing nowadays, that seriously doesn't justify anything. taking the west bank means taking land israel doesn't own, in addition to evicting existing residents who have lived there for generations. seriously, how can you be so near-sighted?
[QUOTE=RobbL;38578436]Sorry for bringing this up but in a SH thread a while back I was trying to say the very same thing but regarding sexism. Many people, when they talk about sexism and misogyny, ect, act as if women and men are like hiveminds (suggesting people should be treated based on the overall situation and past experiences of the group they belong to rather than the situation of them as individuals) and trivialise individual instances of sexism against men just because women as a whole have suffered more from it. And iirc you disagreed with that at the time (apologies if i'm mistaken)[/QUOTE] I don't even remember that
fucking disrespectful audience
I seriously don't ever see how the holocaust is justification to any of the recent actions of Israel, from the excessive militarism, to the constant harassing and total nonrecognition of Palestine, to the attacks on the frontier, to the forceful relocation of Palestinians. I highly doubt any holocaust survivor would condone any of those activities to begin with.
[QUOTE=J!NX;38577985]that bitch is dumb just because the holocaust happened doesn't justify giving Jews a double standard. (Like that guy said) The real victims are the holocaust are people who actually have suffered. Not the people who just happen to be slightly related. I don't want to hear anyone of any race (African, Irish, etc) bitch about anything that doesn't directly effect them in major ways just because their X race.[/QUOTE] Pretty much this, my great grandfather was killed in a plane during WW2, do you see me justifying the protection over whatever social sub-group he stands within?
[QUOTE=J!NX;38579163]I don't even remember that[/QUOTE] Yeah I wasn't completely sure, sorry about that This is what i'm talking about btw [url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1218919&p=38087309&viewfull=1#post38087309[/url] [QUOTE]What i'm saying is that discrimination against an individual woman shouldn't be considered more severe because women have in general have been subject to more discrimination than men, and discrimination against an individual man shouldn't be considered less severe because men as a whole have been subject to less discrimination than women. An individual man isn't responsible for what men have done as a whole, and isn't directly affected by what other men have experienced- the same for women. What affects people is individual experiences. Obviously the actions and experiences of other people indirectly have a bearing on that, but that's not what i'm talking about From what I understand, you're saying that the severity of something happening to someone should be based on how likely it is to happen to them and that how often that thing has happened to other members of that person's group. Which is silly. I know that women have and do suffer more because of sexual discrimination, and I know that people are the result of of history and everyone previous to them, i'm not doubting those points[/QUOTE] And then I had people like thisispains completely failing to understand my point
[QUOTE=The Last Man;38578190]What type of progression are we talking about? Doesn't stop scientific progression, doesn't stop evolutionary progression, and certainly doesn't stop progression of Israel's population. Many people seem to think that Palestinian interests are more important than Israeli's. I don't know why when you consider Hamas is incredibly backwards socially. Sunni muslims in the Middle East treat their women like objects, have a general negative disposition towards any non-muslim, and still hold on to archaic methods of punishment. So you want to discuss morals, right? Don't forget there are two sides to each battle.[/QUOTE] Stop throwing "Progression" out there like it means something. Progression simply means to move forward, not good, not bad, just moving forward. You're using it as a fucking buzzword that justifies the fact that they are treating the people of Israel who are NOT Jewish as second class citizens because they're "Progressing and makes them immune to criticism. Fuck off with that shit. Do you know who's not progressing? The people getting shit on. People in Israel who are not Jewish are forced to live as second class citizens and they're discriminated against simply because they are not Jewish, I reserve the right as a human being to be horrified by that. People who have been living there for generations were forced from their homes for blocks of Israeli housing, people have been found guilty of rape and sentenced to prison for not disclosing that they were not Jewish and the girl they slept with made the assumption that they were, people are not given a say in government because they are not Jewish. Just because other countries are doing shit that's horrible does NOT give Israel and its supporters the right to go "NUH UH THEY'RE DOING WORSE STOP BEING RACIST YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO DISLIKE WHAT WE'RE DOING".
[QUOTE=The Last Man;38575205]I know someone is going to come along and say, "The reason people are anti-Israel is because they are attacking defenseless people and are just hating them". To that I reply this. They are a growing nation and taking the west bank is to make their people's lives easier.[/QUOTE] Germany took Poland to make their lives easier, omg why did we respond??
[QUOTE=Mike42012;38579835]Germany took Poland to make their lives easier, omg why did we respond??[/QUOTE] Bro, not to shatter your reality or anything, but most of polish land they took was German and had been for hundreds of years. If anything, Russia was justified in declaring war on Poland, since they lost the land 20 years prior.
[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;38580049]Bro, not to shatter your reality or anything, but most of polish land they took was German and had been for hundreds of years. If anything, Russia was justified in declaring war on Poland, since they lost the land 20 years prior.[/QUOTE] This land you're talking about was originally Polish though Congress of Vienna and all that
[QUOTE=The Last Man;38578190]What type of progression are we talking about? Doesn't stop scientific progression, doesn't stop evolutionary progression, and certainly doesn't stop progression of Israel's population. Many people seem to think that Palestinian interests are more important than Israeli's. I don't know why when you consider Hamas is incredibly backwards socially. Sunni muslims in the Middle East treat their women like objects, have a general negative disposition towards any non-muslim, and still hold on to archaic methods of punishment. So you want to discuss morals, right? Don't forget there are two sides to each battle.[/QUOTE] I'm talking about diplomatic progression. If you get stuck in the past, nothing will be able to be resolved. Where in my post did you see me glorifying or even referring to HAMAS? Oh, okay - so if they're muslim it's okay to treat them like shit? You just shot yourself in the leg, congratulations. And yes, there are two sides to each battle - that's why my argument has a slight pro-Palestinian angle.
[QUOTE=NOR_92;38580496]I'm talking about diplomatic progression. If you get stuck in the past, nothing will be able to be resolved. Where in my post did you see me glorifying or even referring to HAMAS? Oh, okay - so if they're muslim it's okay to treat them like shit? You just shot yourself in the leg, congratulations. And yes, there are two sides to each battle - that's why my argument has a slight pro-Palestinian angle.[/QUOTE] Well, I guess you are now twisting my words. No I don't think it is okay to treat Muslims like non-humans, my point was that many people support the Palestinians, an orthodox Muslim state. This government would have no problem imposing religious rule over everyone if they had a chance. This rule would not allow for belief outside of their doctrine nor have place for women in politics, power, or business. That appears to be regression to me. Israel is much more western when it comes to suffrage and racial equality. The reason Palestinians in the west bank are not allowed to make political decision in Israel is obvious, would you want your enemy making decisions for how your country is ruled? All things considered this argument is going nowhere so lets see what your last words are because at the end of the day I will remain in support of Israel's actions because I would much rather have a state that is on our side have the most power in the Middle Eastern region of the world rather than some pseudo-religious state.
[QUOTE=RobbL;38580290]This land you're talking about was originally Polish though Congress of Vienna and all that[/QUOTE] And it was also Danish at one time. Poland got fucked a lot.
[QUOTE=The Last Man;38580693]Well, I guess you are now twisting my words. No I don't think it is okay to treat Muslims like non-humans, my point was that many people support the Palestinians, an orthodox Muslim state. This government would have no problem imposing religious rule over everyone if they had a chance. This rule would not allow for belief outside of their doctrine nor have place for women in politics, power, or business. That appears to be regression to me. Israel is much more western when it comes to suffrage and racial equality. The reason Palestinians in the west bank are not allowed to make political decision in Israel is obvious, would you want your enemy making decisions for how your country is ruled? All things considered this argument is going nowhere so lets see what your last words are because at the end of the day I will remain in support of Israel's actions because I would much rather have a state that is on our side have the most power in the Middle Eastern region of the world rather than some pseudo-religious state.[/QUOTE] The rule you are criticizing now is a hypothetical one, because it doesn't exist. A totalitarian, empirical state that does exist though, is Israel. You're showing extreme xenophobia by in essence saying "Well yeah they're fucking over Palestinians but they're MUSLIM! They'd do the same to the Isrealites if the roles were reversed." that argument doesn't hold water, I'm sorry. I'm talking about facts and real conditions, you're constantly presenting hypothetical situations. That's pure speculation and it does not belong in this argument How is Israel in any way sustaining western values such as racial equality, or any form of equality when they are an oppressive, totalitarian power? You're mentioning the Palestinians as "the enemy". This is true, the Palestinians are enemies of Israel, and with good reason. Israel made them their enemies.
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