• Starting with music. What do I need to know in order to make music?
    75 replies, posted
Uh, people have such a bad understanding of the point of music theory. [QUOTE=Yur|ko;31789767]I'm pretty sure he'd do fine just by reading tutorials online. That's how I learned and it worked pretty well.[/QUOTE] I really don't like a lot of online tutorials because there are more bad ones than good ones. There are some great sources out there, but I really wish I would have gotten a book sooner as so many online sources misinformed me to no end. I like books quite a bit better because they are generally laid out better and cover more detail. [QUOTE=thisispain;31790201]you shouldn't have to read anything in order to express yourself. if you have trouble being creative fine but it's very easy to make music without knowing a single thing about it and going in with a fresh mind.[/QUOTE] I'd disagree because you're not going to be expressing yourself right off the start. I for example can't express myself on an instrument that I don't know how to play. I first have to learn how to use your instrument, just as any artist has to learn how to use their medium. A person's first year of making music might be spent trying to figure out what they are doing and familiarizing themselves with their toolbox. Any resources that speed up familiarization should allow for more time to be spent on expression.
[QUOTE=Croix;31782491]No. NONONONONONONONONONONOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Read music theory. Please for the love of God read music theory. I already said it, I know. But seriously. Scales, keys, chords, they are fucking amazing. Learn them. Important thing to remember is though, that music theory is just guidelines. They are rules to be broken. BUt you ahve to know the rules so you can break them[/QUOTE] I have to agree that they are nice guidelines, but I highly disagree that you have to know the rules to break them. Take painting for instance. To paint a picture you don't have to know anything about perspective, but knowing about it can greatly increase what you can do with your art. I think music is fairly similar. I use chords all the time, but nobody really ever told me that is what they were and this is how you use them. Its okay to reinvent the wheel. Someone might actually come up with a better idea. [editline]17th August 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Pepin;31790733]I'd disagree because you're not going to be expressing yourself right off the start. I for example can't express myself on an instrument that I don't know how to play. I first have to learn how to use your instrument, just as any artist has to learn how to use their medium. A person's first year of making music might be spent trying to figure out what they are doing and familiarizing themselves with their toolbox. Any resources that speed up familiarization should allow for more time to be spent on expression.[/QUOTE] You have to work within your means. You can't start playing piano hoping to be mozart in a day, or even a decade. You have to write/play within what you understand and can do. What someone might create after a month of playing might not be revolutionary, but it can still be considered art/music, and maybe even decent or good.
[QUOTE=Pepin;31790733]I for example can't express myself on an instrument that I don't know how to play.[/QUOTE] plenty of people can. some people can pick up a particularly easy instrument to play and do so without any theory. that's why keyboard is so popular, it's because it's easy to learn and play. as long as it creatively inspires you it's easy.
I think this part of the introduction in the book I linked to is relevant here: [quote]One of the biggest mistakes would-be producers make is believing that by carefully listening to and studying their genre, they can acquire all of the knowledge necessary to be a successful producer. This knowledge can certainly get them a long way toward that point. But sometimes it is simply not enough. Producers need other kinds of knowledge, such as knowledge of how music works as a language. It is no good writing an effective bass line, lead, and pads for example, if they are all in different keys. The result is chaotic and unpleasant to listen to. Yet this is a common mistake I hear over and over again. The student's knowledge of the genre is unsurpassed, but the final result falls down because, in purely musical terms, the producer doesn't really know what he is doing. Beneath all of the enormously different styles of modern electronic music lie certain fundamentals of the musical language that are exactly the same no matter what kind of music you write. It is very important to acquire an understanding of these fundamentals if you are to develop as a music producer. Put simply, you need to know what you are doing with regard to the music you are writing.[/quote]
[quote] It is no good writing an effective bass line, lead, and pads for example, if they are all in different keys. The result is chaotic and unpleasant to listen to. Yet this is a common mistake I hear over and over again. [/quote] well no it's not a common mistake, it's part of the music. if aphex twin tuned and put everything in the proper key it wouldn't be the same or as good. [editline]17th August 2011[/editline] and of course a book about music theory isn't going to downplay its own importance
I personally found musical theory very frustrating to learn and it demotivated me from keeping on learning and playing. I found it best to first learn how to play and then learn the theory so it actually makes sense to me in seeing how it helps me know how to play things, and doesn't feel like I'm learning something unrelated to what I play. However that worked with guitars for me, and looks like OP speaks of making electronic music so I'm not sure if it's entirely applicable.
[QUOTE=thisispain;31792212]well no it's not a common mistake, it's part of the music. if aphex twin tuned and put everything in the proper key it wouldn't be the same or as good. [editline]17th August 2011[/editline] and of course a book about music theory isn't going to downplay its own importance[/QUOTE] Dude not everyone is Aphex Twin. His music is awesome, because he knows the rules and can break them. And does so. All the time. But if I started writing my shit all over the place it would sound like absolute fuck. Because I'm not Aphex Twin. [editline]18th August 2011[/editline] Guitars aren't the same as making music. Guitars are something where you can play without knowing what you play. For example if you read that you should play holding the string on the third fret, you don't have to know the notes, you just know how to play a scale and shit. In electronic music, you have to fit together a lot of elements. You have to know the keys on a piano. You can't just throw this shit together, that way it will sound shit.
[QUOTE=Croix;31797617]because he knows the rules and can break them.[/QUOTE] he doesn't know any music theory at all, he just presses keyboards and literally throws the shit together.
Well okay. Granted. But many people would still consider his music unpleasant. Also he just has a really good ear then
[QUOTE=Croix;31797754]Well okay. Granted. But many people would still consider his music unpleasant. Also he just has a really good ear then[/QUOTE] right but let's not pretend any music theory is a requirement for making music. only learn music theory if you think your music will benefit from it. for many people who make music it really isn't. you don't have to learn the rules to break them at all. many people make popular music and break rules without knowing them. see sonic youth.
Yeah it's not required per se, but without it you're off for a pretty rough ride.
[QUOTE=Croix;31798066]Yeah it's not required per se, but without it you're off for a pretty rough ride.[/QUOTE] not really unless you think discovering things about instruments is a rough ride. if you like music it really shouldn't be and you shouldn't try to portray music theory as essential or difficult to do music without because that's a really big lie.
Depends on the genre, as to whether or not musical theory will be a main factor in your music. Theory is almost a necessity in orchestral and symphonic pieces.
[QUOTE=thisispain;31797799]right but let's not pretend any music theory is a requirement for making music.[/QUOTE] Nobody that I know of is really saying you have to learn music theory to make music, people are just saying that it is very helpful. Why people say this is because they notice a big change in their ability and understanding after learning some theory. Personally I really can't at all stand using something if I don't understand it. Chords bugged me badly because I hated using them without knowing what they actually where. I'm a bit obsessive when it comes to only using stuff I understand, but I realize that not everyone is like that. Also, I'll just say that it is very easy to do music without music theory because most music is repetitive enough to copy the elements that work. It's not hard to come up with a generic rock song granted the sound is pretty cemented in people's head's. The majority of musical ideas are easy for people to grasp and replicate and modify. You can give a musician a guitar and tell them to come up with a sad but uplifting song, and they are guaranteed to come up with something with a I iv IV V progression. If someone writes out some lyrics and tries to fit some chords to it, the chords they pick are likely to go with the lyrics. You can even do some pretty progressive pieces without much knowledge of theory.
[QUOTE=thisispain;31798098]not really unless you think discovering things about instruments is a rough ride. if you like music it really shouldn't be and you shouldn't try to portray music theory as essential or difficult to do music without because that's a really big lie.[/QUOTE] its a rough ride when you have no foundation. its super easy to get overwhelmed. if i hadnt started learning music theory shortly after i started playing guitar i probably wouldnt be able to continue playing because everything was just so confusing before music theory came along
[QUOTE=yawmwen;31815064]its a rough ride when you have no foundation. its super easy to get overwhelmed. if i hadnt started learning music theory shortly after i started playing guitar i probably wouldnt be able to continue playing because everything was just so confusing before music theory came along[/QUOTE] I actually had the opposite experience with the guitar. Music theory, scales, and sheet music bored me so much that I almost gave up learning it all together. It wasn't until I had quit my lessons and just began watching youtube tutorials that I started actually enjoying it and getting better. I guess it mostly depends upon the genre your interested in, but I'll tell you for sure that you don't need any knowledge of music theory when you just want to play rock, punk, blues, and alternative styles
[QUOTE=Cbas;31818761]I actually had the opposite experience with the guitar. Music theory, scales, and sheet music bored me so much that I almost gave up learning it all together. It wasn't until I had quit my lessons and just began watching youtube tutorials that I started actually enjoying it and getting better. I guess it mostly depends upon the genre your interested in, but I'll tell you for sure that you don't need any knowledge of music theory when you just want to play rock, punk, blues, and alternative styles[/QUOTE] But the OP is asking how to [b]make[/b] music, not how to play. If you want to make music, music theory is a very solid base to stand on.
[QUOTE=Cbas;31818761]I actually had the opposite experience with the guitar. Music theory, scales, and sheet music bored me so much that I almost gave up learning it all together. It wasn't until I had quit my lessons and just began watching youtube tutorials that I started actually enjoying it and getting better. I guess it mostly depends upon the genre your interested in, but I'll tell you for sure that you don't need any knowledge of music theory when you just want to play rock, punk, blues, and alternative styles[/QUOTE] i guess like pepin, im really analytical of music and cant stand not knowing why shit works together in certain ways.
[QUOTE=Cbas;31818761][...]you don't need any knowledge of music theory when you just want to play rock, punk, blues, and alternative styles[/QUOTE] Knowing something as basic as the minor pentatonic scale is pretty important especially if you're improvising.
[QUOTE=Yur|ko;31828310]Knowing something as basic as the minor pentatonic scale is pretty important especially if you're improvising.[/QUOTE] I don't think a lot of people here even play music, I think they just sequence, so improvising doesn't even come into the equation.
[QUOTE=Pepin;31828446]I don't think a lot of people here even play music, I think they just sequence, so improvising doesn't even come into the equation.[/QUOTE] He specifically used the word "play" and I was just responding to that.
Meh, I'm not really paying attention.
[QUOTE=Yur|ko;31828310]Knowing something as basic as the minor pentatonic scale is pretty important especially if you're improvising.[/QUOTE] Yeah that scale is definitely important, but it doesn't have to be introduced as "music theory" - it really just comes down to memorizing some patterns. I had no idea what the scale name meant or why the notes worked together when I first learned it - I just found a picture of it on google and started jamming
Music theory is important, but most great musicians understand it in different ways. Take aphex twin, I bet he knows perfectly well how to make stuff clash and sound dissonant in his pieces and still awesome, but he couldn't put it into words cause his understanding of theory is not academic. Same with say hendrix, he could do anything with a guitar because he understood the rules perfectly having mastered playing the instrument, but he couldnt write a book about theory.
[QUOTE=Cbas;31831568]Yeah that scale is definitely important, but it doesn't have to be introduced as "music theory" - it really just comes down to memorizing some patterns. I had no idea what the scale name meant or why the notes worked together when I first learned it - I just found a picture of it on google and started jamming[/QUOTE] music theory is mostly memorizing patterns, they just have fancy names to them
[QUOTE=yawmwen;31834994]music theory is mostly memorizing patterns, they just have fancy names to them[/QUOTE] Uh no. Music theory is a lot more than that. Music theory contains a bunch of the basics like key signatures, chords, and harmonies which if you are intending to be a songwriter, are crucial.
To expand upon that, it's not so much about the memorization as opposed to the understanding you gain. I think it is safe to say that any subject requires quite a bit of memorization, and music theory is no exception. One part of learning a scale is memorizing the pattern, yet the second part is learning how to use the scale. You certainly play the Dorian a lot different than the Phrygian, and you really have to learn how to play a scale to sound good in it. I will admit that there is a decent amount of pure memorization, such as where the half steps are (between E and F as well as B and C), key signatures, most anything notation related, what intervals make what chords, and there are likely more examples. You also learn a bunch of concepts that are applicable to writing music. I'm finally starting to get into voice leading, which isn't something that's I've been too bad with the bass and leads, but I've been just awful leading with the chords, the biggest reason is that I've had this notion that inversions are only really used to get an interesting sound. Been learning some piano piecing recently and the treble parts are practically all made up of chord inversions.
[QUOTE=Pepin;31836883]but I've been just awful leading with the chords, the biggest reason is that I've had this notion that inversions are only really used to get an interesting sound. Been learning some piano piecing recently and the treble parts are practically all made up of chord inversions.[/QUOTE] you're trying to be too clever when it comes to chords just let be natural man
[QUOTE=thisispain;31837227]you're trying to be too clever when it comes to chords just let be natural man[/QUOTE] well you can't dis him for trying something lol... how ever crazy it might be... some people understand things differently...
[QUOTE=Pepin;31836883]To expand upon that, it's not so much about the memorization as opposed to the understanding you gain. I think it is safe to say that any subject requires quite a bit of memorization, and music theory is no exception. One part of learning a scale is memorizing the pattern, yet the second part is learning how to use the scale. You certainly play the Dorian a lot different than the Phrygian, and you really have to learn how to play a scale to sound good in it. I will admit that there is a decent amount of pure memorization, such as where the half steps are (between E and F as well as B and C), key signatures, most anything notation related, what intervals make what chords, and there are likely more examples. You also learn a bunch of concepts that are applicable to writing music. I'm finally starting to get into voice leading, which isn't something that's I've been too bad with the bass and leads, but I've been just awful leading with the chords, the biggest reason is that I've had this notion that inversions are only really used to get an interesting sound. Been learning some piano piecing recently and the treble parts are practically all made up of chord inversions.[/QUOTE] music is a collection of patterns. all music follows a certain patter, whether its predictable or not. music theory is studying these patterns and studying why they sound good. people say music is a "right brain" activity filled with "creativity" when it is mostly a "left brain" activity consisting of logic, sequence, patterns, math. its a matter of internalizing the memorization so that you can intuitively use it when you need it, like any field of study. [QUOTE=vizard38;31835728]Uh no. Music theory is a lot more than that. Music theory contains a bunch of the basics like key signatures, chords, and harmonies which if you are intending to be a songwriter, are crucial.[/QUOTE] a key signature is a collection of notes that are memorized. chords are a collection of notes, and harmonies are a perfect example of a pattern you memorize. [editline]21st August 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=thisispain;31837227]you're trying to be too clever when it comes to chords just let be natural man[/QUOTE] for some people that doesnt work. some people are "natural" at it, and others have to spend a lot of time studying the intricacies of note relationships.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.