Homosexuality - Is it a gene or a choice? - General

Personally, i believe its like some people like girls with black hair, and some like them with blond hair. It's like a choice, your mind makes that you are unaware of. What i'm trying to say, is that i believe it's a choice, that you made without knowing.

[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;35454188]I take it you haven't bothered to read anything else posted in this thread? Congratulations on a monumentally shit first post. There is no one single gene that, when activated, causes homosexuality. No scientist worth his salt would ever claim that; it's a combination of genetic, biological and environmental (e.g. uterus hormone exposure, or potentially chemical exposure very early in life) [I]risk factors.[/I][/QUOTE] It's obviously not genetic. biological and environmental risk factors are harmful to humans. How in the world could you say that it affects your sexual orientation?

[QUOTE=SuperElektrik;35454294]It's obviously not genetic. biological and environmental risk factors are harmful to humans. How in the world could you say that it affects your sexual orientation?[/QUOTE]I did not mean risk factor in the same way as a carcinogen is a risk factor in cancer. I meant it in the sense of something that increases the likelihood of being homosexual. And how is it obviously not genetic? [editline]6th April 2012[/editline] Homosexuality is not entirely evolutionary maladaptive. As mentioned before, it's not a single gene that turns a person gay, but a multitude of various genes that increase that chance. A gay person would still be capable of caring for the family of their straight brothers or sisters, able to provide food, protection etc. Those family members are still going to carry at least some of those genetic factors, and thus they ensure their continued prevalence.

[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;35454328]I did not mean risk factor in the same way as a carcinogen is a risk factor in cancer. I meant it in the sense of something that increases the likelihood of being homosexual. And how is it obviously not genetic?[/QUOTE] So what would increase the likelihood of a man acting like a women then? Such things are influenced by upbringings, like the difference between right and wrong. To say a homosexual is the way he/she is because oh some biological event doesn't do them much credit haha. Like I said to say it's genetic implies that it had to have been passed on. Are you going to tell me we don't reproduce next? Lol, my opinion stands.

There's also the potential that a combination of genes that'd lead to male homosexuality would lead to increased female fertility, as in this study: "Evidence for maternally inherited factors favouring male homosexuality and promoting female fecundity" [url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1691850/pdf/15539346.pdf[/url] [editline]6th April 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=SuperElektrik;35454419]So what would increase the likelihood of a man acting like a women then? Such things are influenced by upbringings, like the difference between right and wrong. To say a homosexual is the way he/she is because oh some biological event doesn't do them much credit haha. Like I said to say it's genetic implies that it had to have been passed on. Are you going to tell me we don't reproduce next? Lol, my opinion stands.[/QUOTE]So basically your post consists entirely of you covering your ears and ignoring everything? Nice to know. Sexual orientation is not on the same level as a concept of right and wrong or a personality. It's a basic biological impulse, hardwired as deep as the fight-or-flight response, present across every species on Earth. How would the idea of upbringing causing homosexuality explain it in animals?

[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;35454424]There's also the potential that a combination of genes that'd lead to male homosexuality would lead to increased female fertility, as in this study: "Evidence for maternally inherited factors favouring male homosexuality and promoting female fecundity" [url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1691850/pdf/15539346.pdf[/url] [editline]6th April 2012[/editline] So basically your post consists entirely of you covering your ears and ignoring everything? Nice to know.[/QUOTE] It's okay, I forgive you.

Either a troll or an alt, then. Can't believe I didn't notice it earlier.

[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;35454491]Either a troll or an alt, then. Can't believe I didn't notice it earlier.[/QUOTE] Trolling is subjective, and all I did was post my belief. Jokes on you, sir.

[QUOTE=SuperElektrik;35454552]Trolling is subjective, and all I did was post my belief. Jokes on you, sir.[/QUOTE] Even when the entire point of this forum is to post your opposing belief, try to argue in its favor (successfully) and when that fails you listen to reason and logic and reform your opinions.

[QUOTE=SuperElektrik;35454419]So what would increase the likelihood of a man acting like a women then? Such things are influenced by upbringings, like the difference between right and wrong. To say a homosexual is the way he/she is because oh some biological event doesn't do them much credit haha. Like I said to say it's genetic implies that it had to have been passed on. Are you going to tell me we don't reproduce next? Lol, my opinion stands.[/QUOTE] You must intentionally be missing the point, and also not reading replies to other posts. A) Genes don't necessarily get expressed. We know environmental factors like diet can affect how genes are expressed. If you had the "gay genes" there's a chance that they might not be expressed. B) A trait as complicated as homosexuality would almost certainly be polygenetic in origin, meaning several different genes work together to do it C) Genes that seem deleterious to reproduction in one gender might be beneficial to the other. You might have seen that link further up in the thread suggesting a link associated with male homosexuality and female fertility. If it boosts female fertility whilst negatively impacting male fertility, it could quite easily still proliferate. Additionally the "gay uncle" hypothesis suggests having gay relatives would increase your chance of survival historically, as the resources they'd put into raising their children goes into you D) Homosexuality has been well documented in animals. Take away from that what you will, but this isn't a purely human trait. E) The experts in the field of child development say that homosexuality is not related to upbringing. I'm going to hazard a guess and say they know more about child development than you. All these points strongly suggest that you're wrong. Saying "Well that's not what I personally believe" is not a defensible stance.

[QUOTE=Splurgy_A;35455810]You must intentionally be missing the point, and also not reading replies to other posts. A) Genes don't necessarily get expressed. We know environmental factors like diet can affect how genes are expressed. If you had the "gay genes" there's a chance that they might not be expressed. B) A trait as complicated as homosexuality would almost certainly be polygenetic in origin, meaning several different genes work together to do it C) Genes that seem deleterious to reproduction in one gender might be beneficial to the other. You might have seen that link further up in the thread suggesting a link associated with male homosexuality and female fertility. If it boosts female fertility whilst negatively impacting male fertility, it could quite easily still proliferate. Additionally the "gay uncle" hypothesis suggests having gay relatives would increase your chance of survival historically, as the resources they'd put into raising their children goes into you D) Homosexuality has been well documented in animals. Take away from that what you will, but this isn't a purely human trait. E) The experts in the field of child development say that homosexuality is not related to upbringing. I'm going to hazard a guess and say they know more about child development than you. All these points strongly suggest that you're wrong. Saying "Well that's not what I personally believe" is not a defensible stance.[/QUOTE] Yet you have no proof, only suggestions. That's some serious credibility right there. [editline]6th April 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=DanTehMan;35454699]Even when the entire point of this forum is to post your opposing belief, try to argue in its favor (successfully) and when that fails you listen to reason and logic and reform your opinions.[/QUOTE] Reason and logic is also subjective, so you still fail in understanding. :/ (edit) As far as I'm concerned you are just regurgitating what you read in ignorant articles, but I won't go on... (edit#2) I just had a stunning realization. Whether it's choice or genetic, it doesn't matter to me. Wow! Good day gentlemen, I shall go and drink a smoothie now.

[QUOTE=SuperElektrik;35458365]Yet you have no proof, only suggestions. That's some serious credibility right there. [/QUOTE] Please be joking. He and many, many, many, many, many others have posted proof and evidence. If you're going to keep acting like a moron and not actually read anything anyone posts, then just leave, because you aren't contributing to this discussion at all.

It has been well established that is partially genetic. The environment certainly can affect it, but even if it isn't genetic or environment, and it is a choice, that's no reason to deny them rights.

[QUOTE=SuperElektrik;35458365]Yet you have no proof, only suggestions. That's some serious credibility right there. [/quote] Well, that's the thing. Those aren't suggestions. They're proof and those "ignorant articles" have been peer reviewed. They have way more credibility than you.

I read a very interesting thing a few weeks ago. Apparently, people have, on average, 3 strong sexual experiences (be it just feelings or actual actions) that are exactly opposite of their normal sexual gravitation. So close to no one is [i]truly[/i] hetero or homo. What this tells me is that sexuality is as loosely wired into the brain as anything. Because the semirandom collection of electic neural impulses we call our consciousness really is ridiculous. I don't think homosexuality is a choice. I do think that it's genetics. What I'm not sure about is the possibility that circumstance has a hand in it, with childhood experiences. If a study proved that children adopted into same-gender partner families had a greater chance of being homosexual upon puberty, then I might be onto something.

[QUOTE=Naaz;35462970]If a study proved that children adopted into same-gender partner families had a greater chance of being homosexual upon puberty, then I might be onto something.[/QUOTE]All studies done on that subject have shown absolutely no difference in rates of homosexuality of children raised by homosexuals or heterosexuals.

[QUOTE=SuperElektrik;35458365]Yet you have no proof, only suggestions. That's some serious credibility right there. [editline]6th April 2012[/editline] Reason and logic is also subjective, so you still fail in understanding. :/ (edit) As far as I'm concerned you are just regurgitating what you read in ignorant articles, but I won't go on... (edit#2) I just had a stunning realization. Whether it's choice or genetic, it doesn't matter to me. Wow! Good day gentlemen, I shall go and drink a smoothie now.[/QUOTE] Even if everything he is saying are suggestions you have yet to counter-argue any of his points. Reason and logic may be subjective, but it is you that ultimately fails at understanding. If you actually would read those "ignorant" articles and also brought up counter-arguments on some of those points also then we might listen to you. Enjoy your smoothie. No doubt you will come back to see the responses in this thread.

[QUOTE=zerothefallen;35413028]I don't think it's a choice. Back in August, I got curious in some futanari things. I was very guilty about it and kept telling myself I don't like gay shit and stuff like that. I really couldn't stop it, I liked it a lot even though I kept telling myself I hated it. I ended up becoming bisexual. There is no way its choice*[/QUOTE] Mistyped, I meant It's not a choice*****

[QUOTE=Bletotum;35448806] Logic IS science.[/QUOTE] Bullshit. Science is just a method of getting knowledge. That doesn't mean science is logic. I can tell you're one of those people that think that just because science says something it instantly makes it a law of the universe. Seriously, people need to stop thinking this way. Just because science says UFOs aren't real, but millions of eyewitnesses do (and no, eyewitnesses are NOT the most unreliable evidence), that must mean UFOs can't exist, right? Sorry to bring up this argument so much. Seriously though, it pisses me off people think this way.

Science never said UFO's aren't real. Anything related to extra terrestrial life is still possible and has not been unproven.

[QUOTE=deaded38;35471198]Bullshit. Science is just a method of getting knowledge. That doesn't mean science is logic. I can tell you're one of those people that think that just because science says something it instantly makes it a law of the universe. Seriously, people need to stop thinking this way. Just because science says UFOs aren't real, but millions of eyewitnesses do (and no, eyewitnesses are NOT the most unreliable evidence), that must mean UFOs can't exist, right? Sorry to bring up this argument so much. Seriously though, it pisses me off people think this way.[/QUOTE]Science doesn't say they do not exist. Common sense says the types of UFO's that these millions of eyewitnesses, who never happen to have a camera or video even though every nearly every single phone in existence can take pictures now or they just happen to live in the middle of nowhere with no one around them, probably do not exist as they say they do. Oh and the fact that it is incredibly (understatement) difficult to travel large distances without spending tens of thousands of years on a journey to here.

I don't believe its in the genes. Environment and events around us shapes us what we are. It's just natural fact that there are homosexuals. There are many in animal kingdom and i don't believe it's anything unnatural. We are born with little knowledge of the world around us and we take all the info we can off our surroundings. And when time passes on we experience events and things what in the end makes us who we are. Until it's proven i don't think it's about our genes i think it's only because our feelings and environment pushed us into it.

I think it can be both. Some people are born that way, some people can choose (and those who can choose can be and are influenced by other things). I honestly don't see why it matters.

[QUOTE=deaded38;35471198]Bullshit. Science is just a method of getting knowledge. That doesn't mean science is logic. I can tell you're one of those people that think that just because science says something it instantly makes it a law of the universe. Seriously, people need to stop thinking this way.[/QUOTE] Science is the study of what exists. Science does not say that the 'paranormal' is impossible. If science can prove something, it is certainly a true factor of the universe. Science updates facts when information used to reach conclusions is shown to be false in favor of more specific data. Why should anyone stop thinking 'this way'? 'This way' is what is proven, nothing else. It is incredibly foolish to even participate in debate if this is disagreed upon. [editline]7th April 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=asteroidrules;35473248]I think it can be both. Some people are born that way, some people can choose (and those who can choose can be and are influenced by other things). I honestly don't see why it matters.[/QUOTE] State why you believe one way or another; these posts are only clutter.

[QUOTE=Bletotum;35473270]State why you believe one way or another; these posts are only clutter.[/QUOTE] Because I know people who're both ways. I know some people who were born homosexual, I know plenty of people who were born heterosexual, and I know a few (and am) who decided their sexuality themselves.

[QUOTE=asteroidrules;35473318]Because I know people who're both ways. I know some people who were born homosexual, I know plenty of people who were born heterosexual, and I know a few (and am) who decided their sexuality themselves.[/QUOTE] Its not something you choose its something you grow in too, you can't choose what you like.

[QUOTE=OldFusion;35473720]Its not something you choose its something you grow in too, you can't choose what you like.[/QUOTE] Some people can, but for most (who aren't born one way or the other) it is influenced.

[QUOTE=asteroidrules;35473806]Some people can, but for most (who aren't born one way or the other) it is influenced.[/QUOTE] So you like peanut-butter and then you suddenly decide to stop liking it? You can stop eating it but you can't stop liking it. You can adjust your choice if you want, but you can't adjust your true preference.

Maybe I just don't know better, but I honestly don't see how this is relevant to the whole gay rights issue. I personally believe it's a lifestyle choice, not a genetic fluke, but that doesn't make the gay rights movement (which I'm mostly supportive of) right or wrong. My theory is that they are trying to relate the gay rights movement to the Civil Rights movement of the 1960's, with black skin and homosexuality being something you are born with. I really don't see the point of the association. People have been persecuted for following different religions and serving different leaders, and those are both choices, not something you are born with. It's an unnecessary distraction from the main issue and it ultimately amounts to a pissing contest between the two sides that amounts to nothing.

[QUOTE=electric926;35473913]I personally believe it's a lifestyle choice[/QUOTE] Why? [QUOTE=electric926;35473913] My theory is that they are trying to relate the gay rights movement to the Civil Rights movement of the 1960's, with black skin and homosexuality being something you are born with. I really don't see the point of the association. People have been persecuted for following different religions and serving different leaders, and those are both choices, not something you are born with. It's an unnecessary distraction from the main issue and it ultimately amounts to a pissing contest between the two sides that amounts to nothing. [/quote] There is significant difference between fighting for rights of a choice (under which the opposition can state that homosexuals can simply switch to solve the argument) and fighting for rights of an issue that cannot be changed.