I'm by no means a LGBT activist or anything (I'm not against any of it though), but I heard this from someone else and thought it was pretty interesting: There's over 1,000 differet animal species that sometimes naturally include homosexuality in their niche - yet we humans are the only one to discriminate because of it. We really are the biggest idiots on the planet. :D
According to some biologists it may be possible that same-sex behavior could be linked to traits that were defined by natural selection.
[QUOTE=iGuybrush;36131880]It is a choice, a subconcious one at that. You may hate the fact that you are gay but that would be because of how society is today and what people think of it. That's why people think it is a gene, it isn't.[/QUOTE]
If it's a choice that you can't control how is it a choice?
[QUOTE=zacht_180;36132301]I'm by no means a LGBT activist or anything (I'm not against any of it though), but I heard this from someone else and thought it was pretty interesting: There's over 1,000 differet animal species that sometimes naturally include homosexuality in their niche - yet we humans are the only one to discriminate because of it. We really are the biggest idiots on the planet. :D
According to some biologists it may be possible that same-sex behavior could be linked to traits that were defined by natural selection.[/QUOTE]
This has been already proven multiple times:
[url]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21309724/ns/health-health_care/t/gay-brothers-may-hold-genetic-clues/#.T8ZJ-Jj4LzQ[/url]
[url]http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx[/url]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior[/url]
[url]http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx[/url]
[url]http://bkissel1984.newsvine.com/_news/2009/05/29/2877463-homosexuality-its-not-a-choice[/url]
[url]http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080617204459.htm[/url]
[url]http://www.columbiamissourian.com/stories/2010/11/01/homosexuality-not-choice/[/url]
At this point we've had many posts about whether you [I]think[/I] it is a gene or choice, but from now on in this thread, please only make these arguments with some kind of citation to support them. Somehow I don't think continually posting "I think it's a gene/choice" will get us any closer to a conclusion.
[QUOTE=CapsAdmin;36131679]I think it's somewhat both.
The way I see it is that you're born with a basic personality which doesn't really prefer much of women or men and is altered throughout life by experiences.[/QUOTE]
Why?
[QUOTE=CapsAdmin;36131679]The thing is though, if you're either straight or gay the chances are you're going to keep being one of them. (duh) The average straight guy don't want to become gay so he won't and vice versa.[/QUOTE]
Tell this to the teens in the torture camps of WWASP. Or the people willingly participating in reparative therapy. Neither of which work, of course.
[QUOTE=CapsAdmin;36131679]In the end, I say anything that can rub your dick can give you pleasure, be it people, objects or even animals. We just need to like it, which kind of brings us back again, but I say we can all learn to like things.[/QUOTE]
Sexual attraction is a primal response not able to be formed consciously except by thinking of subjects that trigger it.
The following is a list of sources that suggest that for the majority of homosexuals, orientation is not a choice. I say majority because to consider any complex biologic feature to be uniform across a heavily populated species seems silly given the existence of mutations. I am not saying that it is impossible for some amount of homosexuals to be in control of his or her desires. These are taken from earlier points in this thread, I figured this would be a good time to bring them together, though it is not complete.
[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7456588.stm[/url]
[QUOTE=Bletotum;35221066]Trends are certainly shown, for instance in twins and later sons. Or brain chemistry, reaction to hormones post-puberty, and brain formation.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/1961to1999/1993-homosexual-orientation-in-twins.html[/url] (twins)
[url]http://courses.biology.utah.edu/carrier/3320/sexual%20diff.%20papers/Blanchard%20et%20al%20Interaction%20of%20fraternal%20birth%20order%20and%20handedness%20in%20the%20%0Adevelopment%20of%20male%20homosexuality.pdf[/url] (birth order)
[url]http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/33[/url] (birth order and brain differences, cited article)
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation#Studies_of_brain_structure[/url] (brain difference, cited article)
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation#Biological_differences_in_gay_men_and_lesbians[/url] (various examples, cited article)
[url=http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx]American Psychological Association, and all large related organizations[/url]:
[quote]All major national mental health organizations have officially expressed concerns about therapies promoted to modify sexual orientation. To date, there has been no scientifically adequate research to show that therapy aimed at changing sexual orientation (sometimes called reparative or conversion therapy) is safe or effective. Furthermore, it seems likely that the promotion of change therapies reinforces stereotypes and contributes to a negative climate for lesbian, gay, and bisexual persons. This appears to be especially likely for lesbian, gay, and bisexual individuals who grow up in more conservative religious settings.[/quote]
Hormone reception post puberty that demonstrates a biologic link to homosexuality
[url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6089349[/url]
[url]http://www.nytimes.com/1984/09/21/us/homosexual-study-cites-hormone-link.html[/url]
[url]http://www.pnas.org/content/102/20/7356.long[/url]
Response to sexual stimulus in the brain, displaying non-choice attraction factors
[url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17636559[/url]
[url]http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/pdf/Submission%20to%20the%20Church%20of%20England.pdf[/url]
[quote]Despite almost a century of psychoanalytic and psychological speculation, there
is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of
parenting or early childhood experiences play any role in the formation of a
person’s fundamental heterosexual or homosexual orientation. It would appear
that sexual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex
interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment. Sexual
orientation is therefore not a choice, though sexual behaviour clearly is.[/quote]
[url]http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/113/6/1827.full[/url]
[quote]A variety of theories about the influences on sexual orientation have been proposed. Sexual orientation probably is not determined by any one factor but by a combination of genetic, hormonal, and environmental influences. In recent decades, biologically based theories have been favored by experts. The high concordance of homosexuality among monozygotic twins and the clustering of homosexuality in family pedigrees support biological models. There is some evidence that prenatal androgen exposure influences development of sexual orientation, but postnatal sex steroid concentrations do not vary with sexual orientation. The reported association in males between homosexual orientation and loci on the X chromosome remains to be replicated. Some research has shown neuroanatomic differences between homosexual and heterosexual persons in sexually dimorphic regions of the brain. Although there continues to be controversy and uncertainty as to the genesis of the variety of human sexual orientations, there is no scientific evidence that abnormal parenting, sexual abuse, or other adverse life events influence sexual orientation. Current knowledge suggests that sexual orientation is usually established during early childhood.[/quote]
[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;35454424]There's also the potential that a combination of genes that'd lead to male homosexuality would lead to increased female fertility, as in this study: "Evidence for maternally inherited factors favouring male homosexuality and promoting female fecundity"
[url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1691850/pdf/15539346.pdf[/url][/QUOTE]
Concerning the easily manipulable nature of DNA to give rise to complex situations:
[QUOTE=Splurgy_A;35528348]
Cancer is caused by a cascade of mutations - when a cell replicates its DNA slightly wrong, it can grow out of control because genes that are supposed to [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumor_suppressor_gene]stop it growing out of control[/url] stop working and [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oncogene]genes that tell it to grow[/url] get overexpressed. [url=http://www.breastcancer.org/tips/immune/cancer.jsp]Your immune system can recognise this and deal with the cells[/url] - tumours can only really grow when several mutations occur to the DNA and disguise the cells. These mutations - caused by changing the genetic code, either by skipping over one of the letters, adding in another letter or just changing one of the letters -also happen to other cells with different results, including the cells that make sperm or egg cells. As a result you can inherit mutations.
Genetic variation is a direct result of gene mutation; people with blue eyes have mutated genes that underproduce melanin in part of the iris, meaning the light scatters through it differently and looks blue. But we don't call those mutant genes, we call them "alleles" because all the different versions of genes are mutants. People with light skin have different skin genes to people with dark skin.
However, the genes associated with homosexuality probably have more to do with inheriting several genes in the right combination and [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_expression]having the genes expressed[/url].
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=st0rmforce;35979661]This is slightly off topic, but its related.
If a heterosexual person met a homosexual person of the opposite gender and tried to "convert" them, I think most people would call that anything from rude to inexcusable. Agreed?
A few years ago I knew a gay guy who was attracted to me, and occasionally he tried to "convert" me. I was told by a couple of people that I was being too uptight and that maybe I should try it in stead of turning him down. The fact that I had no attraction to this guy was my fault and I needed to lighten up.
What is the difference here?
Is this a common occurrence? Or is it just an isolated case of backlash from the relatively recent homophobic tendencies of our culture? Or is it just a case of people being insensitive pricks?[/QUOTE]
A lot of this depends on the motivation behind it. Obviously, a gay guy trying to "convert" you is a massive skeez but...
OK, look at it this way. If a bloke came up to me and tried to convert me into being straight, it's probably because he thinks there's something wrong with being gay. That's offensive. They might even be trying to do it out of kindness, to "save me from myself" but usually someone trying to convert gay people is trying to stamp out homosexuality.
However, I also knew a girl once who got a bit obsessed with me and literally begged me to turn straight, to "try it out and give it a go" and even at one point, to do her and pretend she was a bloke. She was a very disturbed and very lonely individual. She wasn't trying to convert me because she thought there was something wrong with me being gay, she was trying to get me to have sex with her and ultimately start going out with her. So I didn't get annoyed at her; I pitied her.
That's probably what's going on here. The gay guy was lonely and probably felt strong feelings for you. The other people telling you to try it was a bit out there, but then again there's nothing wrong with experimenting sexually (if you wanted to be obnoxious about it: #yolo). As for the idea that you weren't attracted to him being your fault - that's really random and weird.
Basically, he was out of order for doing that, but he was probably coming from a different place to someone who tries to convert gay people into being straight. The people on his side were weird, but maybe they thought you were gay and in the closet or something. Who knows.
I wouldn't say it's a common occurrence, but a gay guy crushing on a straight guy isn't uncommon either. Imagine going to school with a bunch of girls who were all lesbians, and more or less all the girls you met in your daily life were lesbians. You got chatting to some, you were good friends with some and maybe you found yourself very attracted to some. The only way to meet straight girls is to go to bars and clubs, and most of the people there are adults. You're still a kid. Eventually you're hanging out with one of your lesbian friends and you confess to her that you find her attractive and would-she-be-interested-in-anything because you don't know for certain she's not just bisexual or secretly straight.
That's the sort of atmosphere going on there. This is also a pretty good argument against it being a choice, because I doubt anyone would choose this.
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