Homosexuality - Is it a gene or a choice? - General

[QUOTE=DanTehMan;35152608]What part of it do you think is a choice?[/QUOTE] The fab [highlight](User was banned for this post ("This is NOT how to post in Mass Debate - Lazy Posting" - Megafan))[/highlight] [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Second MD Offense" - Megafan))[/highlight] [highlight](User was permabanned for this post ("Using alts to continue breaking the rules, again. Had enough chances." - postal))[/highlight]

Megafan, you're a butthurt mod. It's like a fucking concentration camp in here. It's not a choice or a gene edit: Megafan, I am Delrainn quit banning me for so long for misinterpreting my meaning, Mass Debate shouldn't be "Let's get pissed for anything that might seem a tiny bit offensive and ban for 3 fucking days." I was saying fab because that's what the guy above meant. Jesus Christ, get off my dick edit #2: I really had to let that out, you already banned me for 3 days once, banning for 3 more days just because of one measly post is just downright rediculous edit #3: also there really isn't anything left to debate about in here... It's not lazy posting, it was relevant. [highlight](User was permabanned for this post ("Alt used to skirt temporary ban and contest it in a debate thread" - Megafan))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=thisispain;35140991]yeah you're basically just saying something without any proof or even anecdotal evidence.[/QUOTE] So are you. :) [editline]16th March 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=DanTehMan;35148167]Honestly I think if you try and present these nurture and personal choice arguments as fact again I think you should be banned. You have been told you are wrong so many times with supportive concurring evidence, you need to accept that perhaps the actual LGBT users are more knowledgeable in this instance. And to whoever said you are born straight, do you have evidence to back up the claim that babies have a sexual preference of any kind?[/QUOTE] I had a source and so did they. My source just happened to be better and wasn't a shitty opinion. I'm not wrong at all. Also, what "supportive" evidence have I been given? Oh, that's right. Some gay people gave me their OPINION on the matter with even less evidence than I give. I don't deserve to be banned at all. Nobody deserves to be banned. [editline]16th March 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Kaarristu;35157694]Megafan, you're a butthurt mod. It's like a fucking concentration camp in here. It's not a choice or a gene[/QUOTE] You know, I agree with the Megafan thing. He does kind of ban when it really isn't needed. If you try and tell him that person didn't deserve to be banned, he just blows it off. I'm probably going to be banned now for posting my opinion. Shit.

[QUOTE=Kaarristu;35157694]Megafan, you're a butthurt mod. It's like a fucking concentration camp in here. It's not a choice or a gene edit: Megafan, I am Delrainn quit banning me for so long for misinterpreting my meaning, Mass Debate shouldn't be "Let's get pissed for anything that might seem a tiny bit offensive and ban for 3 fucking days." I was saying fab because that's what the guy above meant. Jesus Christ, get off my dick edit #2: I really had to let that out, you already banned me for 3 days once, banning for 3 more days just because of one measly post is just downright rediculous edit #3: also there really isn't anything left to debate about in here... It's not lazy posting, it was relevant.[/QUOTE] Are you incapable of reading the rules sticky? [quote]Start 'effort' posting, especially here, because this is definitely the worst place to shitpost. That means no low-content threads or posts.[/quote] So don't act like you don't know what's going on.

I believe that it's a choice dictated by life experiences, so mostly Freudian sort of crap I guess. It's not genetically determined, you're naturally a blank slate from the womb, your body's experience as it progresses through life adapts to how it receives specific signals based upon different experiences, traumatic or otherwise to determine a specific fondness for specific traits as well as the personal choice built off that. It's the same with what foods you like, I have a friend whom loves oatmeal but his sister hates it only for the fact that her brother put cat food in her oatmeal once, before that she actually loved the stuff but that one moment made her hate it for life now.

[QUOTE=deaded38;35157717]So are you. :) [editline]16th March 2012[/editline] I had a source and so did they. My source just happened to be better and wasn't a shitty opinion. I'm not wrong at all. Also, what "supportive" evidence have I been given? Oh, that's right. Some gay people gave me their OPINION on the matter with even less evidence than I give. I don't deserve to be banned at all. Nobody deserves to be banned. [editline]16th March 2012[/editline] You know, I agree with the Megafan thing. He does kind of ban when it really isn't needed. If you try and tell him that person didn't deserve to be banned, he just blows it off. I'm probably going to be banned now for posting my opinion. Shit.[/QUOTE] There is not a single source in this quote, [quote=deaded38]I said this in the other thread, but I'll say it again just in case people didn't see or understand what I was saying. I believe that being gay can be an act of nature or nurture as well as personal choice. Let me explain: Nature: There's some sort of biological factor(s) that contributes to someone becoming gay. This is [b]no doubt(1)[/b] the most common cause of people being gay. Nurture: Gays can be "taught" how to be gay. An example of this could be where two gay parents adopt a young child (maybe two years old) and this child grows up not seeing a whole lot of the outside world. Now, this child has seen love in a homosexual way. This child will [b]no doubt(2)[/b] end up becoming gay. Of course, other environmental factors do apply. Now let's say this same child grows up around lots of straight friends for a good portion of his life. It depends, but the child could end up being straight depending on other environmental factors. It's all in the environment when it comes down to nurture. Personal Choice: I believe that with the want and support, a gay individual can become straight. Yes, it's hard. Yes, it does take a shitload of time. But does this mean it isn't possible? No, it doesn't. [b]I'm sure there has been at least one gay person in the history of man that has become straight.(3)[/b] [/quote] 1. What do you mean, 'no doubt'? Obviously there is doubt, there has yet to be a single conclusive study done on biological factors affecting sexual orientation. 2. This was just countered in this thread, do you need me to find a source for you? [url]http://www.aclu.org/lgbt-rights_hiv-aids/overview-lesbian-and-gay-parenting-adoption-and-foster-care[/url] [quote]Myth: Children raised by gay or lesbian parents are more likely to grow up gay themselves. Fact: All of the available evidence demonstrates that the sexual orientation of parents has no impact on the sexual orientation of their children and that children of lesbian and gay parents are no more likely than any other child to grow up to be gay.9 There is some evidence that children of gays and lesbians are more tolerant of diversity, but this is certainly not a disadvantage. Of course, some children of lesbians and gay men will grow up to be gay, as will some children of heterosexual parents. These children will have the added advantage of being raised by parents who are supportive and accepting in a world that can sometimes be hostile. [/quote] 3. I'm assuming this is based off of your source, which had been called out by other users as being tainted and other users had posted sources with more credible opinions. You can't somehow verify your source by calling out theirs, that's not how debating works. Honestly, I hope you don't go around spreading your ignorance to others. It is not the 'opinion' of LGBT users, it is the truth.

[QUOTE=DanTehMan;35158311]There is not a single source in this quote, 1. What do you mean, 'no doubt'? Obviously there is doubt, there has yet to be a single conclusive study done on biological factors affecting sexual orientation. 2. This was just countered in this thread, do you need me to find a source for you? [url]http://www.aclu.org/lgbt-rights_hiv-aids/overview-lesbian-and-gay-parenting-adoption-and-foster-care[/url] 3. I'm assuming this is based off of your source, which had been called out by other users as being tainted and other users had posted sources with more credible opinions. You can't somehow verify your source by calling out theirs, that's not how debating works. Honestly, I hope you don't go around spreading your ignorance to others. It is not the 'opinion' of LGBT users, it is the truth.[/QUOTE] Actually, other users had posted sources stating that there have been studies showing that gay people have something biologically different. They're not proven of course, but tell me why YOU think people are gay. I'm assuming you're one of those stupid people who think "it's just because". As for number two, let me repeat myself. Maybe you can't understand, I don't know. It all depends on ENVIRONMENTAL factors. It's not JUST the parents. Parents are just one part of the environmental factors. There's probably a minor percentage of children becoming gay when their parents are gay because of the sheer fact there are other factors. Again, it's not a big number by any means. And no, I didn't base it off my source. I based it off of common sense. My source was just so I could get you guys off my back about not having one. Other users said my source was tainted because THOSE USERS ARE GAY. They just simply want to believe it can't happen because it hasn't happened to anyone they know that is gay. I'm assuming this because I really can't find a better reason as to why they would say a person can't love someone of a different sex. And really? A post on some guy's blog is a more credible source? Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot he was some ex-gay leader. That somehow makes his OPINION more valuable than ours. I'm so sorry. Honestly, I hope you stop fooling yourself. It IS the opinion of gay users.

I think it's a combination of the right genes and the conditions that they were exposed to when their mind was impressionable.

[QUOTE=deaded38;35158627]Actually, other users had posted sources stating that there have been studies showing that gay people have something biologically different. They're not proven of course, but tell me why YOU think people are gay. I'm assuming you're one of those stupid people who think "it's just because". As for number two, let me repeat myself. Maybe you can't understand, I don't know. It all depends on ENVIRONMENTAL factors. It's not JUST the parents. Parents are just one part of the environmental factors. There's probably a minor percentage of children becoming gay when their parents are gay because of the sheer fact there are other factors. Again, it's not a big number by any means. And no, I didn't base it off my source. I based it off of common sense. My source was just so I could get you guys off my back about not having one. Other users said my source was tainted because THOSE USERS ARE GAY. They just simply want to believe it can't happen because it hasn't happened to anyone they know that is gay. I'm assuming this because I really can't find a better reason as to why they would say a person can't love someone of a different sex. And really? A post on some guy's blog is a more credible source? Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot he was some ex-gay leader. That somehow makes his OPINION more valuable than ours. I'm so sorry. Honestly, I hope you stop fooling yourself. It IS the opinion of gay users.[/QUOTE] Alright fine, you want to play that game? As an LGBT user, its hard enough having to deal with everything without people like you telling us our problems aren't actually problems. I respect the studies that say perhaps our brains are wired differently, but there hasn't been any conclusive studies that say how or why that occurs. You should consider that before you say there is 'no doubt' in its validity. In my own personal opinion, I do believe that the environment is indeed the biggest determinate of our sexuality, however the amount of gay love a child would see doesn't have necessarily any consequence on whether or not the child us gay, and because I brought that point up in the opinion of a LGBT user it is now your turn to use factual information with sources about how and why I am wrong. Finally once again there you go about trying to give credit to your source by only discrediting the opposing source. Perhaps you should try to find a new one, because we still have no reason to believe your opinion.

Deaded, are you going to give an actual argument or are you going to continue droning on and on with this "AAAH YOU BELIEVE THIS BUT ARE IN DENIAL!!!" bullshit?

I heard it is a condition developed in the womb related to a sufficient/insufficient amount of chromosomes. So neither.

[QUOTE=Daniel Smith;35169352]I heard it is a condition developed in the womb related to a sufficient/insufficient amount of chromosomes. So neither.[/QUOTE] It sounds to me like you're thinking of [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter's_syndrome[/url]

[QUOTE=milkandcooki;35164538]Deaded, are you going to give an actual argument or are you going to continue droning on and on with this "AAAH YOU BELIEVE THIS BUT ARE IN DENIAL!!!" bullshit?[/QUOTE] I already have an argument, and a fine one at that. And I'll admit, maybe they aren't in denial, maybe they're just stupid. Regardless, I want to see their argument. So far all it has been is: "we're gay users therefore we know everything about the subject". [editline]17th March 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=DanTehMan;35163852]Alright fine, you want to play that game? As an LGBT user, its hard enough having to deal with everything without people like you telling us our problems aren't actually problems. I respect the studies that say perhaps our brains are wired differently, but there hasn't been any conclusive studies that say how or why that occurs. You should consider that before you say there is 'no doubt' in its validity. In my own personal opinion, I do believe that the environment is indeed the biggest determinate of our sexuality, however the amount of gay love a child would see doesn't have necessarily any consequence on whether or not the child us gay, and because I brought that point up in the opinion of a LGBT user it is now your turn to use factual information with sources about how and why I am wrong. Finally once again there you go about trying to give credit to your source by only discrediting the opposing source. Perhaps you should try to find a new one, because we still have no reason to believe your opinion.[/QUOTE] I understand there hasn't been any conclusive studies. What I meant when I said "no doubt" is that had these studies been absolutely proven, it would no doubt be the leading cause of homosexuality. Sorry if it sounded that way. I disagree to a point. I'm pretty sure that if a child sees his/her parent loving someone of the same sex for a majority of his/her life, that child will be gay. Of course, it still depends on other environmental factors and how much that child has seen these environmental factors. I don't see how that's a problem. If your source was complete shit and mine was half-way decent, doesn't that make my source the more credible source? I guess I should shoot myself for using actual logic...

[QUOTE=deaded38;35171715]I already have an argument, and a fine one at that. And I'll admit, maybe they aren't in denial, maybe they're just stupid. Regardless, I want to see their argument. So far all it has been is: "we're gay users therefore we know everything about the subject". [editline]17th March 2012[/editline] I understand there hasn't been any conclusive studies. What I meant when I said "no doubt" is that had these studies been absolutely proven, it would no doubt be the leading cause of homosexuality. Sorry if it sounded that way. I disagree to a point. I'm pretty sure that if a child sees his/her parent loving someone of the same sex for a majority of his/her life, that child will be gay. Of course, it still depends on other environmental factors and how much that child has seen these environmental factors. I don't see how that's a problem. If your source was complete shit and mine was half-way decent, doesn't that make my source the more credible source? I guess I should shoot myself for using actual logic...[/QUOTE] Was there a typo in your first sentence or did you really mean to say, 'it would no doubt be the leading cause of homosexuality?' No, there is still lots of doubt whether it is or isn't the cause... Also could you clarify what you mean when you say the studies had been 'absolutely proven'? I had just posted a source stating that if the parents are gay (not for the majority but for the life of the parents) this does not reflect a likelyhood of homosexuality in children, and you just told me you didn't really mean the parents in 'environmental factors'. Now you're coming around and using them again? Not only is this bad tactics, but you're trying to use a fact that I had already disproved. Lastly, no. It means you need to get a new source to counter the one being used against you. Then if that one is any good we will try our hardest to come up with a better source as well, even if that wasn't actually from me.

[QUOTE=DanTehMan;35172271]Was there a typo in your first sentence or did you really mean to say, 'it would no doubt be the leading cause of homosexuality?' No, there is still lots of doubt whether it is or isn't the cause... Also could you clarify what you mean when you say the studies had been 'absolutely proven'? I had just posted a source stating that if the parents are gay (not for the majority but for the life of the parents) this does not reflect a likelyhood of homosexuality in children, and you just told me you didn't really mean the parents in 'environmental factors'. Now you're coming around and using them again? Not only is this bad tactics, but you're trying to use a fact that I had already disproved. Lastly, no. It means you need to get a new source to counter the one being used against you. Then if that one is any good we will try our hardest to come up with a better source as well, even if that wasn't actually from me.[/QUOTE] But if it isn't biological factors, what is it? It can't be ALL environmental factors seeing as how (you said it yourself) gay parents don't always raise gay children. Again, other environmental factors matter as well, but parents are a big one. Also, what I meant by 'absolutely proven' was just what is says. I never said that the studies were law. For all I know, the studies could be absolutely incorrect. Does this mean that there aren't other biological factors? No, it doesn't. Again, if it's not biological, what is it? Until this question is answered decently and not biologically, I'm sticking by what I've said. No, I never said parents weren't an environmental factor. I said parents are just one of the many environmental factors. I'm not using bad tactics at all. You're just misinterpreting my words. I don't understand this. If my source was more credible than the post on that guy's blog, why do I need to get a new one? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say.

[QUOTE=deaded38;35172471]But if it isn't biological factors, what is it? It can't be ALL environmental factors seeing as how (you said it yourself) gay parents don't always raise gay children. Again, other environmental factors matter as well, but parents are a big one. Also, what I meant by 'absolutely proven' was just what is says. I never said that the studies were law. For all I know, the studies could be absolutely incorrect. Does this mean that there aren't other biological factors? No, it doesn't. Again, if it's not biological, what is it? Until this question is answered decently and not biologically, I'm sticking by what I've said. No, I never said parents weren't an environmental factor. I said parents are just one of the many environmental factors. I'm not using bad tactics at all. You're just misinterpreting my words. I don't understand this. If my source was more credible than the post on that guy's blog, why do I need to get a new one? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say.[/QUOTE] [url]http://theweek.com/article/index/99258/debunking-gay-to-straight-therapy[/url] There is a source about the APA's report on debunking gay-straight therapy. If you REALLY need me to go find an actual copy of the report I'll try my hardest, but I don't have time to put the effort in right now. And you're forgetting I agreed with you on the fact that yes biological studies had been conducted and perhaps links have been made between homosexuality and biological factors, but none of them had been conclusive in establishing a direct correlation or have a concrete hypothesis. Maybe you should do a little research and try to prove me wrong? [quote]There's probably a minor percentage of children becoming gay when their parents are gay[/quote] [quote]I'm pretty sure that if a child sees his/her parent loving someone of the same sex for a majority of his/her life, that child will be gay[/quote] Make up your mind please.

Homosexuality is a mental disorder, you don't choose to have it. Being gay myself, I know this is true. [editline]17th March 2012[/editline] It's like an illness

[QUOTE=Mr Flexi;35131352]It's not a choice to find women attractive, nor is it a choice to find men attractive.[/QUOTE] People's sexuality can change. There definitely a biological reason as males are supposed to be attracted to females and vice versa. But there's also an environmental reason, maybe just preference from an experience. [editline]17th March 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=_NewBee;35172548]Homosexuality is a mental disorder, you don't choose to have it. Being gay myself, I know this is true. [editline]17th March 2012[/editline] It's like an illness[/QUOTE] What.. I bet you were taught that or something. Simply put, some can choose and some can't.

The basic fact is sexuality is a VERY complex thing. Everything that you experience in your life will have some affect. Genes , chemical imbalances , environment , bodily development , diet , even background radiation for all you know. It's not about genes , your personal choice , or some other outside variable it's about being a person. Everyone is different. Most people don't like homosexuality because it's viewed as unnatural, As I do. A male and a male or a female and a female can not produce young without scientific help. Therefor it is a unnatural tendency.

[QUOTE=Errorproxy;35173041]People's sexuality can change. There definitely a biological reason as males are supposed to be attracted to females and vice versa. But there's also an environmental reason, maybe just preference from an experience. [editline]17th March 2012[/editline] What.. I bet you were taught that or something. Simply put, some can choose and some can't.[/QUOTE] Well then allow me to ask the question often asked in these threads: If we choose to be gay, when did you choose to be straight?

[QUOTE=Jdeedler;35173139]The basic fact is sexuality is a VERY complex thing. Most people don't like homosexuality because it's viewed as unnatural, As I do. [/QUOTE] Except that there's also homosexual animals, and I don't think they choose their sexuality either. Also, define "unnatural", are your clothing unnatural? Is the computer you're using unnatural? I mean these things don't grow in nature, thus they must be unnatural, right? And all things unnatural are bad, right?

[QUOTE=Jdeedler;35173139]Most people don't like homosexuality because it's viewed as unnatural, As I do. A male and a male or a female and a female can not produce young without scientific help. Therefor it is a unnatural tendency.[/QUOTE] So we humans only do things that are natural? What about the computer that you're on at the moment? You know that's not natural. It's not like there are orphanages full of children needed to be adopted or anything, we only have marriage/partners ONLY to have a child. History changes you know.

[QUOTE=OHNOES;35175709]Except that there's also homosexual animals, and I don't think they choose their sexuality either. [/QUOTE] I never said homosexuals choose to be the way they are , There are too many variables that effect it to be just a choice or just a gene. Yes , In the animal kingdom there are homosexual acts. These acts usually do not benefit the species. Animals will also rape each other , Do you believe this a natural act and should be treated as such in our society? [QUOTE=Microcosm;35175806]So we humans only do things that are natural? What about the computer that you're on at the moment? You know that's not natural. History changes you know.[/QUOTE] There is a difference between unnatural behavior and synthetic materials. You are straying off the topic at hand. This a discussion about whether or not homosexuality is a gene or choice. It is however , neither.

[QUOTE=Jdeedler;35177921]There is a difference between unnatural behavior and synthetic materials.[/QUOTE] This is off topic, but you're avoiding the argument. He may have stated the question like he meant the computer as an object, but clearly, [I]using[/I] a computer must be "unnatural behaviour". Just like going to a store, wearing clothes or using tools. In short, talking about whether something is natural or not is bullshit. [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jrh8VVwMI4[/url] [QUOTE=_NewBee;35172548]Homosexuality is a mental disorder, you don't choose to have it. Being gay myself, I know this is true. [editline]17th March 2012[/editline] It's like an illness[/QUOTE] This might look like a very negative outlook to some people, but I think this is true. [I]"Illness"[/I] and [I]"mental disorder"[/I] makes it sound like something bad, but it doesn't have to be. Sometimes, differentiating between "normal" feelings and "mental disorders" is unhelpful. I think homosexuality is about as much of a mental disorder as being left handed is, or preferring the color red.

[QUOTE=Sherow_Xx;35178116]This might look like a very negative outlook to some people, but I think this is true. "Illness" and "mental disorder" makes it sound like something bad, but it doesn't have to be. Sometimes, differentiating between "normal" feelings and "mental disorders" is unhelpful. I think homosexuality is about as much of a mental disorder as being left handed is, or preferring the color red [/QUOTE] That is exactly the point I'm trying to get across and you explained it very well. Everyone is different. Sexuality is just another trait like being ambidextrous or having a inclination to music. It can not be just a choice or just a gene it is like almost anything else in your life affected by everything you've experienced ; your environment , your genes , your development , etc. Trying to verify homosexuality as natural to "me" however is off topic , and so was my own opinion on it. If you are still curious , I view homosexuality the way I do for the simple fact that you can not create another of the species in most cases and the way I was raised was suggestive just like all of you were.

The last thing we need on this already overpopulated earth is more people, we aren't going anywhere, so who cares about the +/-10% homosexuals that can't reproduce by themselves. That actually raises another question, are infertile people unnatural? And by your logic, being left handed is also unnatural, because we as a society have learned ourselves to write from left to right, thus we have no place for left handed people. And yes, rape is natural, this happens in nature, however, this doesn't mean we should allow it. I mean, how is rape even related to homosexuality? There is no such thing as a rapist gene, you aren't born a rapist.

Are you even reading my posts? You are still debating my own opinion on homosexuality. You aren't just born a homosexual either. It's not a simple as that. [QUOTE=OHNOES;35178598] And yes, rape is natural, this happens in nature, however, this doesn't mean we should allow it. I mean, how is rape even related to homosexuality? [/QUOTE] You were talking about animals have homosexual relations just like humans , animals also rape just like humans do. The whole argument that "if the animals do it , it must be natural/moral" is grasping for straws at the wrong place.

Let's recap: You say homosexuality is caused by upbringing and other multiple background factors, okey yes, fine, that's one of the MANY theories on what causes homosexuality. Then you said: [QUOTE=Jdeedler;35178177] Sexuality is just another trait like being ambidextrous or having a inclination to music.[/QUOTE] I'm pretty sure you're born ambidextrous. You are of the opinion that being gay is unnatural because they can't reproduce, well:"The last thing we need on this already overpopulated earth is more people, we aren't going anywhere, so who cares about the +/-10% homosexuals that can't reproduce by themselves. That actually raises another question, are infertile people unnatural? " Maybe you haven't noticed yet, but you posted something about homosexuality in a thread where you discuss it, therefore we ARE going to discuss your opinion on homosexuality. [QUOTE=Jdeedler;35178616]Are you even reading my posts? The whole argument that "if the animals do it , it must be natural/moral" is grasping for straws at the wrong place.[/QUOTE] You said it was unnatural, I simply said it is natural, rape isn't even related to homosexuality, why bring it up in the first place? Also, posting on the internet is an unnatural tendency, why are you still here?

I always hated this debate, because it's had under the false pretense that the outcome is actually pertinent to social issues. It's not. Who cares if someone is born gay or not? It's a free country, you shouldn't care if somebody is gay or not, regardless as to why they are.

[QUOTE=DanTehMan;35172528]Make up your mind please.[/QUOTE] You're misunderstanding me again. The first quote was just saying that there is a MINOR PERCENTAGE of children that end up being gay when their parents were gay. That statement was more of a statistical statement. Parents are still an environmental factor. As for the other quote, I meant that if a child sees love in a homosexual fashion for most of his/her life, that child would be gay because he/she has seen love in that way. It all depends on how much of the other environmental factors the child sees. And if that child sees more homosexual love than heterosexual love, that child will more than likely be gay. Hence, since there isn't as much homosexual love as there is heterosexual love, a child becoming gay due to environmental factors is semi-rare. I hope I cleared things up. I must admit, I'm not very good at explaining things.