[url=http://i56.tinypic.com/2e6bz2r.png]"Huh" doesn't count as an argument.[/url]
I think it can be either or? But I'm leaning more toward choice.
This thread is not for sharing your opinion, it is for comparing information and reasoning.
[QUOTE=Bletotum;35247133][url=http://i56.tinypic.com/2e6bz2r.png]"Huh" doesn't count as an argument.[/url][/QUOTE]
lmao who made this guy a backseat moderator
If you feel that the report button isn't working out, you're more than welcome to send me a PM about rule-breaking debate posts. However, let's not clutter this thread up with posts about it, alright?
been said a hundred times probably but
not a choice or a gene, I'm a bisexual and it definitely does not run in the family. By choice I choose to go for women first and foremost; but I can't help the fact that i'm attracted to males sexually as well, I believe it to be a psychological thing.
Because of this I find it incredibly ignorant when someone says they were "born that way", no, they weren't. They developed that way for one reason or another. "Born that way" is being ignorant of the fact that something during your development in your childhood caused you to simply turn out that way..
some people argue "it's in your genes" but realistically speaking; I think it could be argued that it still comes down to how you're brought up. In a sense you could say it's passed down by that logic, but it's not through genes.
Sexuality, I find, like fetishes, really stem themselves in the human psyche. I'm not going to pretend to myself that it's anything other than that.
If it's a choice then I can't even imagine what would make me choose to do something I have zero interest in... perhaps those who say it [I]is[/I] a choice are just bi-sexual or gay and in the closet.
[QUOTE=Bletotum;35235017]This is not debating. If all you can do to support your argument is insult anyone who thinks otherwise, you must leave.[/QUOTE]
You're right. That isn't debating, and I apologize for that. At the time, I was with my occasionally retarded cousin after school when I posted that. I brought up the topic this thread is about the day before to "debate" (He's actually very shitty at debating; when someone brings up a topic he doesn't like, he just ignores it and says "you're a penguin" as attempt to drop the subject. Seriously.) with him. He's one of those people that think gays are just gay for the reason of "because they are". He doesn't believe it's nature, nurture, or choice. He says "it just happens". I was just under some bullshit and when Fluke42 said that people are arguing for me (which isn't really true because I'm just REFERRING to them) was kind of the last straw. I know it's not the best reasoning, but I am truly sorry for insulting anyone.
On the other hand, your assumption about me saying "just because I couldn't support my argument" is completely false. I can support my argument, and did. I just didn't do it in the way you guys want. I'm going to get some sources, I just don't know when. If you feel it is so needed at this very moment, you can go look for some yourselves; otherwise, I'll find some sources when I feel like it. Also, I know this doesn't mean your argument isn't legit, but I don't see you posting sources as to why there isn't biological factors that may determine one's sexual preference.
[QUOTE=Inzalonus;35258460]Because of this I find it incredibly ignorant when someone says they were "born that way", no, they weren't. They developed that way for one reason or another. "Born that way" is being ignorant of the fact that something during your development in your childhood caused you to simply turn out that way..[/QUOTE]
Why do you believe this?
[editline]23rd March 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=deaded38;35260240]On the other hand, your assumption about me saying "just because I couldn't support my argument" is completely false. I can support my argument, and did. [B]I just didn't do it in the way you guys want[/B]. I'm going to get some sources, I just don't know when. If you feel it is so needed at this very moment, you can go look for some yourselves; otherwise, I'll find some sources when I feel like it. Also, I know this doesn't mean your argument isn't legit, but I don't see you posting sources as to why there isn't biological factors that may determine one's sexual preference.[/QUOTE]
"The way you guys want" is a real source, its ridiculous to imply that asking for a source is anal.
Until you have some sources, your argument has no ground.
[editline]23rd March 2012[/editline]
As for my own sources,
[QUOTE=Bletotum;35221066]Trends are certainly shown, for instance in twins and later sons. Or brain chemistry, reaction to hormones post-puberty, and brain formation.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/1961to1999/1993-homosexual-orientation-in-twins.html[/url] (twins)
[url]http://courses.biology.utah.edu/carrier/3320/sexual%20diff.%20papers/Blanchard%20et%20al%20Interaction%20of%20fraternal%20birth%20order%20and%20handedness%20in%20the%20%0Adevelopment%20of%20male%20homosexuality.pdf[/url] (birth order)
[url]http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/33[/url] (birth order and brain differences, cited article)
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation#Studies_of_brain_structure[/url] (brain difference, cited article)
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation#Biological_differences_in_gay_men_and_lesbians[/url] (various examples, cited article)
[url=http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx]American Psychological Association, and all large related organizations[/url]:
[quote]All major national mental health organizations have officially expressed concerns about therapies promoted to modify sexual orientation. To date, there has been no scientifically adequate research to show that therapy aimed at changing sexual orientation (sometimes called reparative or conversion therapy) is safe or effective. Furthermore, it seems likely that the promotion of change therapies reinforces stereotypes and contributes to a negative climate for lesbian, gay, and bisexual persons. This appears to be especially likely for lesbian, gay, and bisexual individuals who grow up in more conservative religious settings.[/quote]
[editline]23rd March 2012[/editline]
The suggestion that homosexual parents will cause a child to be gay is just made-up fuel used to deny adoption and other rights, it is a scare tactic.
[QUOTE=Bletotum;35261205]Why do you believe this?
[editline]23rd March 2012[/editline]
"The way you guys want" is a real source, its ridiculous to imply that asking for a source is anal.
Until you have some sources, your argument has no ground.
[editline]23rd March 2012[/editline]
As for my own sources,
[url]http://hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/1961to1999/1993-homosexual-orientation-in-twins.html[/url] (twins)
[url]http://courses.biology.utah.edu/carrier/3320/sexual%20diff.%20papers/Blanchard%20et%20al%20Interaction%20of%20fraternal%20birth%20order%20and%20handedness%20in%20the%20%0Adevelopment%20of%20male%20homosexuality.pdf[/url] (birth order)
[url]http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/33[/url] (birth order and brain differences, cited article)
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation#Studies_of_brain_structure[/url] (brain difference, cited article)
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation#Biological_differences_in_gay_men_and_lesbians[/url] (various examples, cited article)
[url=http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx]American Psychological Association, and all large related organizations[/url]:
[editline]23rd March 2012[/editline]
The suggestion that homosexual parents will cause a child to be gay is just made-up fuel used to deny adoption and other rights, it is a scare tactic.[/QUOTE]
As said before, I was referring you guys to sources posted by other people. Believe it or not, you are getting severely anal about this whole "you have to post a source not already posted by other people when we want, or your argument is crap" thing. As for that last line...
Sure, it's not always true. It's not even common. But I would say if two gay parents raise a child under the right environmental conditions, that child will definitely become gay. Parents are just a big part of environmental factors, mainly due to the fact they're around you a lot and they raise you. Again, I'm not saying "all (or even most for that matter) gay parents raise gay children". I'm just saying it would definitely be more likely than a straight family raising gay children.
Could you point out one of those sources previously posted?
Are you saying that gay parents can remove a child's attraction to the opposite gender (as determined by the child's genetics)?
What are these "right environmental conditions"?
[QUOTE=Bletotum;35267765]Could you point out one of those sources previously posted?
Are you saying that gay parents can remove a child's attraction to the opposite gender (as determined by the child's genetics)?
What are these "right environmental conditions"?[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure if the thread is up anymore. I can probably find them if I wasn't so lazy.
No, no, no. Parents would never be able to change a child's sexuality if that child's genetics (or whatever it may be) determined their sexual preference. This is why biological factors would have to be the number one cause of homosexuality since obviously most gay people aren't gay because of environmental factors (which they would have to be just right).
An environmental factor can be anything. It can be T.V. shows, friends, family, movies, the internet, etc. Most of them are pretty minor things such as the internet, which doesn't determine much to do with sexual preferences. Some are more major such as friends and family, which can determine a person's sexual preference much easier than the other minor ones. But that doesn't mean just because you have gay parents, you are instantly gay. It also depends on how much you've seen of these minor environmental factors. If you've seen a shitload of these minor factors that are more straight than gay and didn't spend very much time with your parents or gay friends, then the odds are you will not be gay. On the other hand, if you've seen a shitload of major factors that are more gay than straight and you didn't see a whole lot of straight society, you will more than likely be gay. Since most of the time children have straight friends and society is more straight than gay, a child is usually not gay just because their parents were.
I hope I kind of cleared things up. I'm tired as all hell right now and I may have left something out or nor made sense. Sorry if I did any of those. Tomorrow I'll try and answer any questions of you have any.
[QUOTE=deaded38;35269778]I'm not sure if the thread is up anymore. I can probably find them if I wasn't so lazy.
No, no, no. Parents would never be able to change a child's sexuality if that child's genetics (or whatever it may be) determined their sexual preference. This is why biological factors would have to be the number one cause of homosexuality since obviously most gay people aren't gay because of environmental factors (which they would have to be just right).
An environmental factor can be anything. It can be T.V. shows, friends, family, movies, the internet, etc. Most of them are pretty minor things such as the internet, which doesn't determine much to do with sexual preferences. Some are more major such as friends and family, which can determine a person's sexual preference much easier than the other minor ones. But that doesn't mean just because you have gay parents, you are instantly gay. It also depends on how much you've seen of these minor environmental factors. If you've seen a shitload of these minor factors that are more straight than gay and didn't spend very much time with your parents or gay friends, then the odds are you will not be gay. On the other hand, if you've seen a shitload of major factors that are more gay than straight and you didn't see a whole lot of straight society, you will more than likely be gay. Since most of the time children have straight friends and society is more straight than gay, a child is usually not gay just because their parents were.
I hope I kind of cleared things up. I'm tired as all hell right now and I may have left something out or nor made sense. Sorry if I did any of those. Tomorrow I'll try and answer any questions of you have any.[/QUOTE]
But you're pretty much saying nothing. You're saying that under the 'right' conditions (you have yet to state what these conditions are), someone will 'become' homosexual/heterosexual/bisexual/etc. rather than whatever genetic preset they would've had.
You're making an argument with [B]zero[/B] substance, that only amounts to "I don't know what it would need to happen, but it can happen because it can". Either substantiate this with evidence that supports [I]that[/I] argument, or stop continuing to insist on it.
[QUOTE=Megafan;35270307]But you're pretty much saying nothing. You're saying that under the 'right' conditions (you have yet to state what these conditions are), someone will 'become' homosexual/heterosexual/bisexual/etc. rather than whatever genetic preset they would've had.
You're making an argument with [B]zero[/B] substance, that only amounts to "I don't know what it would need to happen, but it can happen because it can". Either substantiate this with evidence that supports [I]that[/I] argument, or stop continuing to insist on it.[/QUOTE]
Oh, I'm so sorry that I can't list [B]EVERY SINGLE[/B] environmental condition. I've already told you what some of the conditions are. Just because I can't list every single god damn situation, I suppose that makes me an idiot, right?
If anything makes you an idiot, it's that you keep using terrible evidence to support your claims.
Nothing you said is an environmental condition. "The internet", "friends and family", "gay parents", none of these mean anything at all. Your evidence is vague; you cannot support your argument with facts.
[QUOTE=Bletotum;35276374]If anything makes you an idiot, it's that you keep using terrible evidence to support your claims.
Nothing you said is an environmental condition. "The internet", "friends and family", "gay parents", none of these mean anything at all. Your evidence is vague; you cannot support your argument with facts.[/QUOTE]
Shit, I'm sorry. I got the words "environmental factor" messed up with nature and nurture... I meant what I said in the nurture aspect. I feel really stupid right now. If you need me to re-explain it, I will.
Also, I don't see how you're supporting your argument with facts. Don't bitch at me about it if you can't even do it yourself. On that note, my evidence was fine. I was just presenting it wrong.
I put many links just up the page. Are you trolling or blind?
[editline]24th March 2012[/editline]
Furthermore, you continue to undermine opposing arguments. I'm not "bitching at you", I'm pointing out the issues in your posts.
I decided to talk up to a good homosexual friend of mine, who gave me a great discussion to post.
Both of our profiles, if you'd like to speak to either of us. He said he is fully willing to talk about it to anyone who is interested, and seemed even a bit enthusiastic.
(Mister Cee's Profile: [url]http://steamcommunity.com/id/Script360/[/url] )
(My Profile: [url]http://steamcommunity.com/id/skylock/[/url] )
[code]
Skylock: What do you think made you gay, if I may ask?
High Warlord Mister Cee: Nothing lol
Skylock: Ie; Birth.. Enviourment.. Choice?
High Warlord Mister Cee: Birth I guess
High Warlord Mister Cee: I knew I was gay before I even knew what gay was.
High Warlord Mister Cee: I took more of a fancy to men than I did women. Then my best friend asked me, she had to explain what gay was.
High Warlord Mister Cee: I then decided it was me.
High Warlord Mister Cee: So as far as it being a choice, what man would openly admit to being gay in this world without actually being gay?
High Warlord Mister Cee: Could you?
Skylock: No, but what about people who are gay, but don't want to admit it to the world/etc? People who are attracted to men, but hide it?
High Warlord Mister Cee: They are scared.
High Warlord Mister Cee: The whole reason this debate even exists is because of retards.
High Warlord Mister Cee: I don't blame them.
High Warlord Mister Cee: It's also the feel of normality.
High Warlord Mister Cee: I have mostly guy friends, when I hang out with them I feel different because I don't enjoy the same things they do.
Skylock: This being subjected to; "Look at dat' ass.", or more..?
High Warlord Mister Cee: Exactly.
High Warlord Mister Cee: It's almost outcasting sometimes.
High Warlord Mister Cee: It's not their fault.
High Warlord Mister Cee: But it just gets to you sometimes.
High Warlord Mister Cee: For some people, it is much easier to pretend to be straight.
[i]*Staggering off-topic. If you don't have a friend that is gay, yes, their no more/less fun then your friends. Their homosexuality shouldn't/doesn't effect them as a person, except under certain curcumstances.*[/i]
Skylock: But yes, anything else to add?
High Warlord Mister Cee: All I want to say is this.
High Warlord Mister Cee: A man can not pick their sexuality.
High Warlord Mister Cee: A staight man can not choose to be gay just as a gay man can not choose to be straight.
High Warlord Mister Cee: Also
High Warlord Mister Cee: I understand some people do not like the gay people who act very..... feminen like. (I don't.) However, that should be handeled on a seperate debate. Not the gay one.
High Warlord Mister Cee: Feminen acting men that happen to be gay, I believe that that is a product of the enviorment.
High Warlord Mister Cee: However, being gay at core is not.
[/code]
Also;
[h2]HELLO...[/h2]
[b]Deaded38.. :)[/b] Remember me? Oh, not forget Mr.Cee. We thought it was very [i]entertaining[/i] seeing you post, 'debate', and get banned here. <3
Please don't make this discussion personal. In response to your chat with Cee, I find it absurd when anyone thinks they know more about homosexuality than someone who is actually homosexual. I agree, it's ridiculous that this conversation is even taking place.
[QUOTE=Bletotum;35281619]Please don't make this discussion personal. In response to your chat with Cee, I find it absurd when anyone thinks they know more about homosexuality than someone who is actually homosexual. I agree, it's ridiculous that this conversation is even taking place.[/QUOTE]
If you are going to have a debate about sexuality, I think it would be ideal to actually ask someone who is gay. Just saying.
[QUOTE=Mister C;35281645]If you are going to have a debate about sexuality, I think it would be ideal to actually ask someone who is gay. Just saying.[/QUOTE]
Ie; Why I asked him. He had no issue with the matter, and that is the sole reason I did ask him. But, your comment leads me to believe that you didn't read the entire chat. If that the case, please read it again as I don't feel like watching the thread resort to what it did before.
It's not a choice. But you certainly aren't born with it
[QUOTE=Kenneth;35282033]It's not a choice. But you certainly aren't born with it[/QUOTE]
Please, elaborate.
[QUOTE=Kenneth;35282033]It's not a choice. But you certainly aren't born with it[/QUOTE]
Any evidence to back up the statement that you aren't born with it?
[QUOTE=DanTehMan;35282296]Any evidence to back up the statement that you aren't born with it?[/QUOTE]
Please read upwards. I was speaking with my friend, who posted two posts below me, who is a homosexual.
[QUOTE=Gamershaze;35282328]Please read upwards. I was speaking with my friend, who posted two posts below me, who is a homosexual.[/QUOTE]
Huh? Your friend stated that you [i]are[/i] born with it? I'm asking this gentleman why he thinks you [i]aren't[/i] born with it.
Either way, your friend didn't have any evidence other than his own personal experience, which isn't something that reflects the entire LGBT crowd's viewpoint.
[QUOTE=DanTehMan;35282456]Huh? Your friend stated that you [i]are[/i] born with it? I'm asking this gentleman why he thinks you [i]aren't[/i] born with it.
Either way, your friend didn't have any evidence other than his own personal experience, which isn't something that reflects the entire LGBT crowd's viewpoint.[/QUOTE]
<-- I'm that friend.
Perhaps not. The whole argument is pointless considering that no one can honestly speak for an entire community.
I would think that a person that is actually gay protesting his personal experience would be enough to act as some time of debate grounding with this topic being about gay people and all. Apparently not.
There appears to be some confusion. Mister C, Dan, Gamer, and I all agree.
[editline]24th March 2012[/editline]
agree that a gay man has much more reliable testimony than a straight man concerning homosexuality, keeping in mind that even in specific communities there is a lot of variation.
In my chat I did specifically said "Birth I guess". I have no clue what or how it is. All I know is that I didn't choose it. :)
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