Homosexuality - Is it a gene or a choice? - General

[QUOTE=Gamershaze;35281513]I decided to talk up to a good homosexual friend of mine, who gave me a great discussion to post. Both of our profiles, if you'd like to speak to either of us. He said he is fully willing to talk about it to anyone who is interested, and seemed even a bit enthusiastic. (Mister Cee's Profile: [url]http://steamcommunity.com/id/Script360/[/url] ) (My Profile: [url]http://steamcommunity.com/id/skylock/[/url] ) [code] Skylock: What do you think made you gay, if I may ask? High Warlord Mister Cee: Nothing lol Skylock: Ie; Birth.. Enviourment.. Choice? High Warlord Mister Cee: Birth I guess High Warlord Mister Cee: I knew I was gay before I even knew what gay was. High Warlord Mister Cee: I took more of a fancy to men than I did women. Then my best friend asked me, she had to explain what gay was. High Warlord Mister Cee: I then decided it was me. High Warlord Mister Cee: So as far as it being a choice, what man would openly admit to being gay in this world without actually being gay? High Warlord Mister Cee: Could you? Skylock: No, but what about people who are gay, but don't want to admit it to the world/etc? People who are attracted to men, but hide it? High Warlord Mister Cee: They are scared. High Warlord Mister Cee: The whole reason this debate even exists is because of retards. High Warlord Mister Cee: I don't blame them. High Warlord Mister Cee: It's also the feel of normality. High Warlord Mister Cee: I have mostly guy friends, when I hang out with them I feel different because I don't enjoy the same things they do. Skylock: This being subjected to; "Look at dat' ass.", or more..? High Warlord Mister Cee: Exactly. High Warlord Mister Cee: It's almost outcasting sometimes. High Warlord Mister Cee: It's not their fault. High Warlord Mister Cee: But it just gets to you sometimes. High Warlord Mister Cee: For some people, it is much easier to pretend to be straight. [i]*Staggering off-topic. If you don't have a friend that is gay, yes, their no more/less fun then your friends. Their homosexuality shouldn't/doesn't effect them as a person, except under certain curcumstances.*[/i] Skylock: But yes, anything else to add? High Warlord Mister Cee: All I want to say is this. High Warlord Mister Cee: A man can not pick their sexuality. High Warlord Mister Cee: A staight man can not choose to be gay just as a gay man can not choose to be straight. High Warlord Mister Cee: Also High Warlord Mister Cee: I understand some people do not like the gay people who act very..... feminen like. (I don't.) However, that should be handeled on a seperate debate. Not the gay one. High Warlord Mister Cee: Feminen acting men that happen to be gay, I believe that that is a product of the enviorment. High Warlord Mister Cee: However, being gay at core is not. [/code] Also; [h2]HELLO...[/h2] [b]Deaded38.. :)[/b] Remember me? Oh, not forget Mr.Cee. We thought it was very [i]entertaining[/i] seeing you post, 'debate', and get banned here. <3[/QUOTE] Don't bring chat logs and snide remarks to this section, this is not the place for that. [editline]24th March 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Kenneth;35282033]It's not a choice. But you certainly aren't born with it[/QUOTE] And I think we've had enough posts like this in the thread as well. Kindly don't just state your position - this is a debate thread, start posting with a debate.

[QUOTE=Mister C;35282530]<-- I'm that friend. Perhaps not. The whole argument is pointless considering that no one can honestly speak for an entire community. I would think that a person that is actually gay protesting his personal experience would be enough to act as some time of debate grounding with this topic being about gay people and all. Apparently not.[/QUOTE] I can tell you that your experience as someone who is gay might differ from my experience, even though I am also gay.

[QUOTE=Megafan;35283848]Don't bring chat logs and snide remarks to this section, this is not the place for that.[/QUOTE] May I ask if you even read the chat log? It is what I spoke with someone, who has posted here. He is a homosexual, and I asked him his part of this discussion. This has nothing to do with snide remarks or anything like that, and I honestly don't see why on earth you would dis-allow something productive in this debate, for no reason other than 'it being a chat log'.

[QUOTE=Gamershaze;35284311]May I ask if you even read the chat log? It is what I spoke with someone, who has posted here. He is a homosexual, and I asked him his part of this discussion. This has nothing to do with snide remarks or anything like that, and I honestly don't see why on earth you would dis-allow something productive in this debate, for no reason other than 'it being a chat log'.[/QUOTE] I did read the chat log, and it was just you asking him his opinion on this. We know already that many homosexuals have said they didn't choose it, but there's a reason we have a rule in this section about debates that just ask for opinions. I let the OP re-open this one if it provided an argument, but it seems to have devolved into just throwing opinions back and forth. Bletotum made a post with a few sources, what did you feel like your chatlog was going to add to the debate?

[QUOTE=Megafan;35284789]I did read the chat log, and it was just you asking him his opinion on this. We know already that many homosexuals have said they didn't choose it, but there's a reason we have a rule in this section about debates that just ask for opinions. I let the OP re-open this one if it provided an argument, but it seems to have devolved into just throwing opinions back and forth. Bletotum made a post with a few sources, what did you feel like your chatlog was going to add to the debate?[/QUOTE] At the same time debates can't be infinite, perhaps there needs to be a clear cut winning side once in a while.

[QUOTE=Gamershaze;35284311]This has nothing to do with snide remarks or anything like that[/QUOTE] I think Megafan was referring to this: [QUOTE=Gamershaze;35281513][b]Deaded38.. :)[/b] Remember me? Oh, not forget Mr.Cee. We thought it was very [i]entertaining[/i] seeing you post, 'debate', and get banned here. <3[/QUOTE] [editline]25th March 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=DanTehMan;35284824]At the same time debates can't be infinite, perhaps there needs to be a clear cut winning side once in a while.[/QUOTE] Ideally, debate threads slowly lose posting as all points are covered until a consensus is reached among individuals willing to concede. For the most part this is true, and the thread only continues when an opposing argument is presented for further discussion. The trouble is when the same opposing argument is made repeatedly despite discussion, not conceding, ignoring presented information or logic.

[QUOTE=DanTehMan;35283953]I can tell you that your experience as someone who is gay might differ from my experience, even though I am also gay.[/QUOTE] Have you had some sort of similar experience?

[QUOTE=Mister C;35285299]Have you had some sort of similar experience?[/QUOTE] About being gay from birth? No. I'm still trying to come to terms with my sexuality and have only recently admitted to myself I might be gay. This has been in the past year, and I'm 18 now. I had considered myself straight even through puberty.

Sometimes one, sometimes the other, and sometimes both. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Vague post without an argument, was already warned on the same page - Read the updated rules sticky." - Megafan))[/highlight]

I love how non homosexuals are arguing about the logistics of how homosexuality comes about, it's pretty funny to me. Someone with a different sexuality says "no it's definitely not something you're born with" and someone else comes along and argues "yeah you can't prove that blah blah" To answer someone above, why do I believe it's a psychological thing? The natural "order", so to speak, the genetic make up will naturally cause attraction towards the opposite gender, myself, i've always been attracted to females, but something caused a pretty big penis envy in me, pretty sure I know what it is too. I've come to terms with it, and i'm sure many other people that have gone through closeted sexuality will agree that it's a big part of the psyche, coming to terms with it allows us to feel like our real selves again.

[QUOTE=Inzalonus;35296078]I love how non homosexuals are arguing about the logistics of how homosexuality comes about, it's pretty funny to me. Someone with a different sexuality says "no it's definitely not something you're born with" and someone else comes along and argues "yeah you can't prove that blah blah" To answer someone above, why do I believe it's a psychological thing? The natural "order", so to speak, the genetic make up will naturally cause attraction towards the opposite gender, myself, i've always been attracted to females, but something caused a pretty big penis envy in me, pretty sure I know what it is too. I've come to terms with it, and i'm sure many other people that have gone through closeted sexuality will agree that it's a big part of the psyche, coming to terms with it allows us to feel like our real selves again.[/QUOTE] Are you a man or a woman? What is your definition of penis envy?

[QUOTE=Gamershaze;35281513] [h2]HELLO...[/h2] [b]Deaded38.. :)[/b] Remember me? Oh, not forget Mr.Cee. We thought it was very [i]entertaining[/i] seeing you post, 'debate', and get banned here. <3[/QUOTE] You're so immature it isn't even funny. Seriously, when someone disagrees with you, they're an idiot in your mind. When someone proves you wrong, you remove them and rage. I won't go off topic and explain why. Also, like you've never been banned on anything before. [editline]26th March 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Bletotum;35276518]I put many links just up the page. Are you trolling or blind? [editline]24th March 2012[/editline] Furthermore, you continue to undermine opposing arguments. I'm not "bitching at you", I'm pointing out the issues in your posts.[/QUOTE] I think we're talking about two completely different aspects. Are you talking about nature or nurture? I was talking about nurture. Sorry, but I just think we're talking about two different things.

[QUOTE=deaded38;35303232]You're so immature it isn't even funny. Seriously, when someone disagrees with you, they're an idiot in your mind. When someone proves you wrong, you remove them and rage. I won't go off topic and explain why. Also, like you've never been banned on anything before. [editline]26th March 2012[/editline] I think we're talking about two completely different aspects. Are you talking about nature or nurture? I was talking about nurture. Sorry, but I just think we're talking about two different things.[/QUOTE] Who are you talking about in the first part of your post?

[QUOTE=DanTehMan;35304978]Who are you talking about in the first part of your post?[/QUOTE] Gamershaze. We used to talk on Steam a lot and I finally figured out he's just a generic kid on the internet that can't handle an argument without saying "nou" and removing you. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Unnecessary comment towards your opponent. This is NOT how to debate. - 2nd MD Offense" - Megafan))[/highlight]

I was talking about nature. I have yet to see convincing evidence for nurture.

[QUOTE=Bletotum;35306748]I was talking about nature. I have yet to see convincing evidence for nurture.[/QUOTE] Ah, my bad then. I was talking about nurture throughout this whole thing. I completely agree that nature is a cause of homosexuality.

[QUOTE=Inzalonus;35296078]I love how non homosexuals are arguing about the logistics of how homosexuality comes about, it's pretty funny to me. Someone with a different sexuality says "no it's definitely not something you're born with" and someone else comes along and argues "yeah you can't prove that blah blah" To answer someone above, why do I believe it's a psychological thing? The natural "order", so to speak, the genetic make up will naturally cause attraction towards the opposite gender, myself, i've always been attracted to females, but something caused a pretty big penis envy in me, pretty sure I know what it is too. I've come to terms with it, and i'm sure many other people that have gone through closeted sexuality will agree that it's a big part of the psyche, coming to terms with it allows us to feel like our real selves again.[/QUOTE] Concerning this page, I think I've been the largest supplier of 'you cant prove that blah blah'. I think that is a defensible objective view, without bringing in my own experience on sexuality. As for the 'natural order' that you say causes you to be attracted to the opposite gender, I can only assume you mean genetics. You fail to consider that this could also explain same-sex attraction. You fail to consider that your 'penis envy' did not remove attraction to the opposite gender, and is thus incomparable to homosexuality. You say that coming to terms with that allows one to feel like his/her real self (implying that there are no homosexuals, as if homosexuals are simply deluding themselves), without realizing that homosexuals feel that way about being homosexual (like one's real self). Your argument is ignorant, and you are arrogant to think that you can speak for homosexuals in this way. [editline]26th March 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=deaded38;35306805]Ah, my bad then. I was talking about nurture throughout this whole thing. I completely agree that nature is a cause of homosexuality.[/QUOTE] I appreciate that, and would like to see evidence of nurture. For instance, a gay man claiming to have become gay through his environment (there being no better source for this conclusion than by the gay man in question). I would expect that person to be able to identify sources of his environment that were the cause.

[QUOTE=Bletotum;35306870]I appreciate that, and would like to see evidence of nurture. For instance, a gay man claiming to have become gay through his environment (there being no better source for this conclusion than by the gay man in question). I would expect that person to be able to identify sources of his environment that were the cause.[/QUOTE] I believe there were a few gays in this thread that had said they weren't born that way, but perhaps "raised" that way. Though, they really didn't give any sources of the environment that would have made them that way. I could re-explain my reasoning, if you want. The odds are I will explain it really bad, but if you want, I can try and make it more clear.

[QUOTE=deaded38;35308175]I believe there were a few gays in this thread that had said they weren't born that way, but perhaps "raised" that way. Though, they really didn't give any sources of the environment that would have made them that way. I could re-explain my reasoning, if you want. The odds are I will explain it really bad, but if you want, I can try and make it more clear.[/QUOTE] Reported to a moderator for flaming in several of your previous posts, about me. But yes, I would also like to see your evidence. Also, just because they didn't post a source of environment that would lead to this, doesn't mean that there was/it had anything to do with the environment. This being what a large group of people think, it being about how a person or raised, and who/what they are around.

[QUOTE=deaded38;35306446]Gamershaze. We used to talk on Steam a lot and I finally figured out he's just a generic kid on the internet that can't handle an argument without saying "nou" and removing you. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Unnecessary comment towards your opponent. This is NOT how to debate. - 2nd MD Offense" - Megafan))[/highlight][/QUOTE] Keep the personal remarks out of this thread, or take it to PMs.

[QUOTE=Bletotum;35281619]Please don't make this discussion personal. In response to your chat with Cee, I find it absurd when anyone thinks they know more about homosexuality than someone who is actually homosexual. I agree, it's ridiculous that this conversation is even taking place.[/QUOTE]A homosexual is not entirely qualified to know exactly what causes homosexuality, much in the same way someone with autism is unlikely to know where it comes from. While I do believe that the idea that homosexuality is an after-birth environmentally acquired characteristic is a load of horseshit (no reputable study thus far has found any evidence for it), saying gays know the origin of their sexuality best is a rather flawed argument against it, or indeed anything.

I was getting at the choice argument.

D'oh, can't believe I missed that D:

Although i said i personally did not know i was gay since birth, i did not have any evidence that it has been completely environmentally, although that is my personal belief. Someone a few pages back stated the idea that everyone is born with a higher or lower chance of being gay, but environmental factors ultimately affect it. Let me see if i can find the post. [editline]27th March 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Darkimmortal;35230999]I believe that different people have different levels of biological 'potential' to be homosexual from guaranteed heterosexual to bisexual with nurture to guaranteed homosexual. I also believe that a lot of straight people could be bisexual with the right environment - I myself fully believed I was straight and was even somewhat homophobic until less than a year ago, long after puberty. It's not a choice (in the everyday sense of the word), that's for certain, it's anywhere from a state of mind that once reached cannot easily be reversed (this is how I see myself), to a unique and more permanent brain chemistry that I believe most 'fully' gay people have. And when I say state of mind, perhaps not the best example, but I imagine it's largely similar to stereotypical 'emo's whom I imagine feel the need to be the way they are even though it is illogical and likely often creates harm/problems for them. It's not like a choice as in, waking up one day and deciding "oh look I'm bisexual this is cool" then getting slagged for it and going "nah jk i'm straight." Nor even a choice as in, having felt resistance, standing up for your beliefs. It is a stronger state of mind than what 'belief' would typically represent, such as religion. Although religion is an example along the right lines of what I'm talking about regarding states of mind.[/QUOTE] This is the post, i feel it sounds fairly reasonable

Did we have to ban deaded? He was the only one who was still arguing, and by arguing I am able to feel a little better about myself...

I believe its a gene, but I really wish it wasn't. Because I know there are some douche bags out there trying to figure out a way to 'cure' homosexuality. Even though they're already trying.

I think it's conditioning with genetical background, and that pretty much defines your personality by the end of puberty.

You can not simply say 'conditioning'. [editline]28th March 2012[/editline] Gay individuals arise from all backgrounds, situations, and cultures.

I never understood why it would matter either way. However I do believe it's entirely biological, but a choice in the sense of accepting your feelings and emotions. I don't see how you could just "make" yourself have feelings for someone you're not attracted to, and furthermore, humans aren't the only animals to demonstrate homosexual behaviors. I'm not sure how you could argue that homosexuality in around 1500 different species of animal lacking our ability to "chose" to do something simply from free will isn't biologically derived.

I think that it comes from living a sheltered lifestyle, in my high school class, you could pretty much name off every kid who was gay because they weren't social, like at all.