[QUOTE=<V()LT>;44778278][video=youtube;mlF5QN8S3ww]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlF5QN8S3ww[/video]
They used eggs, bacon, and milk making this video. Hypocrites.[/QUOTE]
my breakfast screams at me too
glad im not the only one
[QUOTE=draugur;44778159]I didn't imply that at all. Also animals in nature kill and eat other animals so there's that. As to your example with putting a pig in a cage for three years anyway, we put people in prisoners for more than half their lifetimes.[/QUOTE]
You can always change the equation or make the equation attractive by just pointing to nature. Nature is just as cruel and nasty as it can get so its really easy to justify practically everything because there is something behaving worse. Please tell me what justice gets served in a place more tantamount to a concentration camp than a prison. They don't get a say in defending themselves, they don't come equipped with the same rights. They get artifically inceminated and we kill them systematically on a grand scale.
[QUOTE=draugur;44778159]
A pig is less capable of intelligent thought than a human is, and at least a pig gets used at the end of those three years, a human is just kept alive and then thrown in the ground after all that suffering they endure. With your example it wouldn't be a stretch to say that we shouldn't have prisons for criminals since people are animals and keeping them in cages is wrong. [/QUOTE]
We have such an arrogance about what intellegence gives us but what good is it if people don't have much intellectual integrity. The fundamental argument is that it's not a proven fact that our life experience is any more conciously intense or real because we have it complicated and that's the oppression you are trying to rationalize into taking of something else's welfare because you didn't fancy something else for dinner.
[QUOTE=draugur;44778159]
Please return when you have an argument that actually holds water as to why EVERYONE should suddenly drop a method of energy intake that has been around for thousands of years simply because you think it is inhumane in the current form. Did we stop using oil when we figured out that burning it had a negative effect on the climate? No, we've worked to make it as clean as we can with technology, but it can't be phased out yet simply because it is still needed until we have the technological means to replace it. Eventually we'll be able to grow meat on an industrial scale like we've experimented with in labs, but until then, we have to work with what we got. Rome wasn't built in a day, and the end to slaughterhouse practice can't go away overnight. Oh and free range animals exist, so there's that.[/QUOTE]
When we talk about treatment of animals and what we define as humane, it's mostly about whats considered sufficient enough and it doesn't have much credibility for the animal. I don't expect people to abandon or come unaccustomed to long established practices. Animals can be raised right and killed cleanly but no one exercises any self restraint to check where their meat comes from. Choosing not to think about it isn't exactly giving a damn in terms of being partly responsible for what you buy. You cannot be so sure and confident that the suffering of a million more animals will go unwasted on a whim that everything in the future will turn out fine, that people will abruptly unadopt when you can't even demonstrate what it is that will happen. It's wasteful, careless and sloppy.
I might have been late to the party.
While I don't advocate the unnecessarily cruel treatment many animals suffer, I don't think we should cut out an important part of the human diet just for animals.
Like I said, cruelty is one thing, but I am not really bothered by the standard procedures for raising and slaughtering livestock. Maybe keeping an animal penned up in bad conditions irks some people, but I'm selfish. I put humans before pigs or cows and whatnot. Maybe that is selfishness, or some weird form of species-ism, but at the end of the day I want my meat, and I want other humans to have meat.
Their only point was that "Corporations are evil". Guess what? Every corporation is evil, not only food ones. Also a video by PETA about how killing thousands of animals is bad. Now ironic.
You know what? Stop trying PETA. YOU SHALL NOT STOP ME from eating delicious rabbit meat.
[QUOTE=Combine 177;44775526]How does going to vegan solve world hunger?[/QUOTE]
if people started dying of malnutrition and the population thinned out, demand for food would be lower
Wow they actually deleted my comment I posted on their video just recently. Stupid hippies I tell ya.
I don't see why I should draw an arbitrary line in consciousness and sentience and say that treating plants like commodities is any better then doing the same to anything else. No, I'm not going vegan for the sake of ethics.
They all look like losers
Eating less meat would probably be better for myself and the environment but you're out of your mind if you think I'm giving up bacon entirely.
Even if you have no morals, for the sake of the future everyone needs to go vegan. The amount of energy it takes to produce one pound of beef is insanely greater than the amount of energy it takes to produce a pound of plant matter.
I've been vegan for about 2 years now and have noticed no health improvements. I havn't noticed any health detriments either. I have always stayed healthy. I 100% believe that in the future being vegan won't be a choice, because of how inefficient it is to produce animal products.
You can laugh all you want and say that no "hippy vegans" are going to take away your burger, but you need to stop avoiding the big problem which is over population.
If everyone went vegan it wouldn't prevent world hunger, but it would definatley help delay world starvation.
[QUOTE=Flameon;44775609]Grain and corn that goes to animals could, instead of becoming processed animal feed, go to people.[/QUOTE]
Grain and corn that goes to animal is not fit for human consumption to begin with. The standards of production and quality is way different between food for animals and food for humans.
What next, feed all the homeless with cat food ?
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;44780053]
What next, feed all the homeless with cat food ?[/QUOTE]
This statement has reminded me of this:
[video=youtube;GDqu8tXrQWU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDqu8tXrQWU[/video]
[QUOTE=mochisushi;44779662]I don't see why I should draw an arbitrary line in consciousness and sentience and say that treating plants like commodities is any better then doing the same to anything else. No, I'm not going vegan for the sake of ethics.[/QUOTE]
Let's not pretend those line don't get drawn. We've had a lot of bad line drawing in the past and we drew lines that put women on one side and put men on the other side. As humans progress, we're seeing that other lines could be drawn a little better in the same way. We move the line to a better place and it ought to be drawn by our best intelligence not our addictions, not our sensibilities that we've acquired through cultural mach-oration. Some people acknowledge and understand the real value in what makes a life form have character worth paying attention such as the capacity to feel. I mean if you don't give a shit about anything inside an ethical stand point, then no i don't think anything else will. How do you encourage conversation, discourse and discussion if this is what people call an argument?
[QUOTE={TFS} Rock Su;44780091]This statement has reminded me of this:
[video=youtube;GDqu8tXrQWU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDqu8tXrQWU[/video][/QUOTE]
The guy looks like Tony Stark
--snip-- too lazy to read the whole thread
[QUOTE=Combine 177;44775526]How does going to vegan solve world hunger?[/QUOTE]
From what I hear, is that it takes a lot of land and resources to make meat compared to just making vegetables for us to eat. And that would make sense, since we have to make lots of food for the animals that we eat.
So we'd probably be making better use of what we have if we didn't eat meat. We'd have more land to grow crops for us, and using less for animals.
But then again, people eating meat isn't the number 1 reason for world hunger. It's greed.
Cows need rotating pasture and ranges, further supplemented with grain for quick fattening. Having to eat meat on the notion that veganism / vegetarianism isn't possible worldwide is a drastic one and unreasonable in regards to your free choice position.
If they really care so much about nature, they'd be eating meat, because that's how nature works.
[QUOTE=Recurracy;44780551]If they really care so much about nature, they'd be eating meat, because that's how nature works.[/QUOTE]
Now isn't that a liability of our existence. Just being here doesn't imply that we have to be part of a system where we can't make decisions in what roles we're gonna imitate and how big of a menace we're gonna be. We can control a lot of it and that we don't have to ignore it. We're smart enough to know that the rest of nature has no choice in it, it can't advocate it and it doesn't have any place else to go. It doesn't get to vote on whether we should still maintain a system where feeling creatures eat each other.
[QUOTE=Killer900;44777815]If that were a legitimate problem, wouldn't going vegan make that even more of an issue seeing as how there would be more cows since humans aren't curbing their population numbers? Also that last part is the biggest load of bullshit ever, it isn't a fallacy, it's a fact, we're omnivores, we're designed to eat a healthy balance of meat and plants.[/QUOTE]
Whilst I agree that an omnivorous diet is fine, you kind of established a weird fallacy yourself there.
If humans didn't eat cows or their produce, we wouldn't need as many cows.
So we wouldn't farm cows.
So there'd be less cows. It's not like we pluck them out of the middle of the road or something, most cows are only around because we farm them. I eat meat and dairy and all that shit, but you're forgetting that most farm animals are here because we farm them.
Ill survive off meat alone so while all you kids go vegan and eat all of your vegetamales ill still have my meat left.
Also a major point all vegans seem to ignore, plant farming and animal farming are not two seperate things, they are supporting each other. Animal farms produce among other things, manure, bonemeal and compost from animal byproducts which are often used as fertilizer for plants. In fact, "organic" farming uses these as their main source of fertilization as they are natural by-products of farming. The amount of energy comparisons are really flawed because of the way the food chain works. No shit cows take more energy than plants to make the same amount. Cows don't use the sun to grow bigger, they use plants.
But the biggest issue of them all is vitamin yield in plants. Animals eat plants and convert them into vitamins we need. vitamins like b12 d3 and creatine are found in such greater quantities in animals than in plants that it is much more favourable from an energy standpoint to raise a few livestock to create massive quantities of these than to attempt and fill that gap with plants.
Did vegan take gr11 bio?
I would switch to vegan but i don't see the long-term effect, first of all there is a numerous amount of facts that meat is just better then carrots and grain and secondly it would have no effect on my environment, if there was actually big plans regarding to turn down the meat production in favor of switching to more vegan'ish food then i would be up for it. If my neighborhood would switch to being a vegan then that would not solve any big problems or lower the production of meat.
I'm still waiting for the day a vegan says "Milk is murder!" unironically.
[QUOTE=A_Pigeon;44780683]
But the biggest issue of them all is vitamin yield in plants. Animals eat plants and convert them into vitamins we need. vitamins like b12 d3 and creatine are found in such greater quantities in animals than in plants that it is much more favourable from an energy standpoint to raise a few livestock to create massive quantities of these than to attempt and fill that gap with plants.
Did vegan take gr11 bio?[/QUOTE]
From an energy standpoint, i don't think whole-food concentrates or natural food vitamins are as economical in comparison to synthetic vitamin supplements which is to be leading practice for alot of people's vitamin intake to those who give a damn and aren't too hypercritical about missing out the many phytonutrients that might be contained other ways.
[QUOTE=Daemon;44780111]Let's not pretend those line don't get drawn. We've had a lot of bad line drawing in the past and we drew lines that put women on one side and put men on the other side. As humans progress, we're seeing that other lines could be drawn a little better in the same way. We move the line to a better place and it ought to be drawn by our best intelligence not our addictions, not our sensibilities that we've acquired through cultural mach-oration. Some people acknowledge and understand the real value in what makes a life form have character worth paying attention such as the capacity to feel. I mean if you don't give a shit about anything inside an ethical stand point, then no i don't think anything else will. How do you encourage conversation, discourse and discussion if this is what people call an argument?[/QUOTE]
You ignored what I've said, did a large amount of hand waving to stand in the middle ground, and then you insult my argument, without stating what you would consider reasonable. Try again.
[QUOTE=mochisushi;44782212]You ignored what I've said, did a large amount of hand waving to stand in the middle ground, and then you insult my argument, without stating what you would consider reasonable. Try again.[/QUOTE]
I don't understand whats so arbitrary between drawing a line from some grass and a lion. Yes you treat animals like commodities, like a piece of grass and you can't differentiate to what might be more of an issue and to what kind of scale it is happening. Some people are gonna argue from emotion but the bottom line is this is an intellectual argument and sentience things that feel are important. It can be harmed, it can be hurt and you don't cause something harm and hurt without some kind of good cause and thats the whole point of this subject. My [i]insult[/i] is underlying the futility of arguing with people who choose not to bother themselves with certain details and it seems the first argument to be had is one that can even get as far as to recognize it.
Plants feel, they react to outside stimuli, even those that would be deemed painful. Checkmate atheists.
But the cuter something is, the tastier it is, and it's much harder to find cute vegetables than cute animals.
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