[QUOTE=Flameon;49849762]
Other scenes like the way Postal II portrays Muslims... a lot less defensible to me.[/QUOTE]
So a game meant to shit on everybody should take special care when portraying Muslims?
You don't think thats a bit racist/bigoted or at least condescending in some way?
I feel the same is true for all forms of media. The idea that saying 'cunt' makes you sexist, or saying 'nigger' makes you racist doesn't sit well with me. Use of a word with a negative history [I]within the right context[/I] isn't an automatic one-up for racism. If it's used within the discourse of racial issues, or within a story to give narrative depth and believably to a racist character I don't think there should be a problem with it.
I'd love to hear opinions from black people on the topic. As I see it, I don't imagine simply hearing the word used is going to cause legitimate offense if done sensitively.
[editline]2nd March 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=I Am Dumb;49849556]Great, sounds fun. Don't really care one way or the other, after all I'm a well off, privileged white dude. But fuck me silly if I'm not tired of being reminded that I should feel guilty about what we did to all these niggers.[/QUOTE]
Fig 1. The wrong way to use these words in conversation
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;49849772]So a game meant to shit on everybody should take special care when portraying Muslims?
You don't think thats a bit racist/bigoted or at least condescending in some way?[/QUOTE]
It is part of the game that jumps out at me when I think about how it intersects with racism.
The game is problematic for other reasons you can think of and that excuses racist tropes about Muslims? Not seeing your logic here.
[QUOTE=I Am Dumb;49849448]This was interesting until he dropped the bomb at the end, now I'm starting to think he just wants to promote racism.[/QUOTE]
Sure.
[QUOTE=I Am Dumb;49849521]Okay, so why don't we make a game about the KKK in the early 20th century then? Wouldn't that be appropriate by the same standard?[/QUOTE]
It would be educational?
[QUOTE=I Am Dumb;49849556]Great, sounds fun. Don't really care one way or the other, after all I'm a well off, privileged white dude. But fuck me silly if I'm not tired of being reminded that I should feel guilty about what we did to all these niggers.
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Racism" - rilez))[/highlight][/QUOTE]
Contradictory.
A few devs really know what they're doing in regards to this. J Sawyer, the director of New Vegas, has said a lot about the design choices in the game.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/JEn2xHm.png[/img]
Additionally you have a few indie devs like Dingaling who did Lisa that just don't give a single fuck. Apparently his next game will focus heavily on the issue of racism, in addition to having ninjas and shit.
I think one of my dreams is to see a milsim/realistic fps about the wars in the Balkans during the 90s. [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-228auScq1g](that I got from this video)[/url]
It isn't the typical mass-known type of racism, but I feel like it'd be an extremely effective way to convey how horrible it is. Almost like a survival-horror game without any monsters.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;49850142]A few devs really know what they're doing in regards to this. J Sawyer, the director of New Vegas, has said a lot about the design choices in the game.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/JEn2xHm.png[/img]
Additionally you have a few indie devs like Dingaling who did Lisa that just don't give a single fuck. Apparently his next game will focus heavily on the issue of racism, in addition to having ninjas and shit.[/QUOTE]
people called Bioshock Infinite racist, despite how clearly it's mocking the idea
people even will call other people racist, for villianizing racists in their games
its awfully shitty to see
[QUOTE=J!NX;49850329]people called Bioshock Infinite racist, despite how clearly it's [B]mocking the idea[/B]
people even will call other people racist, for villianizing racists in their games
its awfully shitty to see[/QUOTE]
more accurate to say that it was dealing with the issues around racism and exploring it through metaphor and alternate history rather than 'mocking'. Mocking would just be using it as a throwaway gag and treating it without the sensitivity that it deserves
I have to disagree with his basic premise. People call every piece of media with race-related themes racist. Criticism like that is bound to happen when there are 7 billion people and each of them has different opinions. Despite what he says, video games aren't special in that regard (although they certainly do receive more scrutiny from right-wing types when it comes to violence).
[QUOTE=I Am Dumb;49849591]I'm great, I just don't really understand how it's stupid to think that the only way we're ever going to get over racism is to stop making a fuss over it. Why the hell is it important to have racist themes in ANYTHING?[/QUOTE]
Because it can cause a feeling of empathy and show people that racism is bad
Alternatively why is it important that racism isn't covered in anything?
God forbid somebody creates a piece of art that you happen to disagree with or you think perpetuates bad thought.
Lets ban the use of drugs in video games as it perpetuates that using drugs is okay or makes you healthy. You know those medkits in tf2? Those perpetuate abusing prescription drugs and that's not okay!
Censorship because you think something sends a bad message is a bad idea because its going to be used for more then just what you consider to be bad thought. Then when something you think shouldn't be censored gets censored you say "that's not okay" and then everybody else will say but look at this precedent that says its perfectly okay!
As far as I'm concerned just about anything that doesn't outright say "Go kill the US president right now, please refer to the instruction manual on how to commit murder in real life and use the game to practice sniping at this location and familiarizing yourself with the area." or equivalent to that should be allowed.
It's difficult to have an ethnic character now-a-days because of every act and word being labeled as racist.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;49849659]Games should be allowed to be racist and tackle racist topics.[/QUOTE]
it's important here to make the distinction between games being racist and just showing it. while i don't think games should be [I]banned[/I] as such from the first, it's certainly not a point in the game's favor and i think it's a perfectly fair reason to not buy it and/or give out some backlash.
I think the biggest problem with avoiding racism and other forms of discrimination in historical games/other forms of media is it's actually kinda insulting.
By ignoring shit like racism in pre civil rights USA you're not making it less racist or more approachable, all you're doing is saying that these things didn't happen. In you're attempts to avoid offending the victimized group all you've done is said they never suffered in the first place. That those racist people didn't exist or act like that. That there was no real problems regarding race in the states. You're white washing history in some poor attempt to avoid upsetting people and all you've done is mocked them.
Picture if a old black person who lived during those times sat down and played a game set in the 60s and he saw basically no racism anywhere. How do you think he'll feel? He'll be furious. You're denying the hardship he went through and that's frankly disgusting.
Denying that we ever had world wide racism and disgusting practices is just as bad as condoning it. We should never purposely make people feel left out but we must also remember that history isn't something we can change and we certainly can't ignore it's nasty side when handling it.
[QUOTE=Cone;49851179]it's important here to make the distinction between games being racist and just showing it. while i don't think games should be [I]banned[/I] as such from the first, it's certainly not a point in the game's favor and i think it's a perfectly fair reason to not buy it and/or give out some backlash.[/QUOTE]
A game made by a racist that lets you play from the perspective of a racist could potentially be very informative.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;49853049]A game made by a racist that lets you play from the perspective of a racist could potentially be very informative.[/QUOTE]
How so? We already have those stormfront games and that one game where you kill Jews (Ethnic Cleansing I think), what's there to take from these?
[editline]2nd March 2016[/editline]
[url]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_Cleansing_(video_game)[/url]
Found it
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;49853049]A game made by a racist that lets you play from the perspective of a racist could potentially be very informative.[/QUOTE]
i guess that's possible, but for that to happen you need someone who A) is a self-acknowledged racist (which is pretty rare to begin with), B) wants to actually portray an ideology and convince people instead of making an intentionally unlikable game to offend anti-racists, and C) is really good at game design and storytelling. if/when such a game gets made i can say with no doubts it'll be one of a kind
I am pretty sure racism is part of the evolution, it just something that will always exist and can't really be fought against.
[QUOTE=Shakma;49857616]I am pretty sure racism is part of the evolution, it just something that will always exist and can't really be fought against.[/QUOTE]
It's as part of our nature as violence is, and I like to think there are at least a few places in the world where violence is abhorred pretty much universally. At the very least, we aren't living in caves and beating each other over the head with rocks anymore, so I think some aspects of human nature are open to change.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;49853049]A game made by a racist that lets you play from the perspective of a racist could potentially be very informative.[/QUOTE]
A game made with the purpose of exploring racism and it's causes would be cool, but if it was made by an actual racist there's no way it wouldn't be hugely biased in a way that brings it down and, well, obviously makes it objectively super fucking racist.
[QUOTE=KillRay;49853071]How so? We already have those stormfront games and that one game where you kill Jews (Ethnic Cleansing I think), what's there to take from these?
[editline]2nd March 2016[/editline]
[url]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_Cleansing_(video_game)[/url]
Found it[/QUOTE]
There's nothing to take from these because there's no story. It's kill the darkies, kikes, and spics for points, and they're super mediocre.
A well written story revolving around racism in a way that isn't completely black and white (Bioshock Infinite, Ethnic Cleansing) would be a start. I'm not supporting racism but the ideology comes from places like upbringing, religion, or personal experiences, all of those could be explored as a story without it being A. Kill the neo-nazi's running a blimp city or B. Kill the niggers
Oh my god, people get offended so easily these days it makes my brain hurt. It gets me really sad that you cant truly speak about things because your thoughts doesnt matter anymore if you are called racist even though you just stated the facts. Or like if i say being fat is a health risk to a fat individual, im presumed to be fat hater idiot. "being fat can be beautiful you wanker"
[QUOTE=Nastardo;49857820]Or like if i say being fat is a health risk to a fat individual, im presumed to be fat hater idiot. "being fat can be beautiful you wanker"[/QUOTE]
why would you though? it's pretty safe to assume they've heard it before.
[QUOTE=Anonymuzz;49857840]why would you though? it's pretty safe to assume they've heard it before.[/QUOTE]
Because i hate fat people.
[QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;49857773]There's nothing to take from these because there's no story. It's kill the darkies, kikes, and spics for points, and they're super mediocre.
A well written story revolving around racism in a way that isn't completely black and white (Bioshock Infinite, Ethnic Cleansing) would be a start. I'm not supporting racism but the ideology comes from places like upbringing, religion, or personal experiences, all of those could be explored as a story without it being A. Kill the neo-nazi's running a blimp city or B. Kill the niggers[/QUOTE]
so you want American History X: The Official Video Game
[QUOTE=Flameon;49849849]It is part of the game that jumps out at me when I think about how it intersects with racism.
The game is problematic for other reasons you can think of and that excuses racist tropes about Muslims? Not seeing your logic here.[/QUOTE]
If you actually think a game like Postal 2 in any way furthers or promotes racism, you are wrong. It's quite literally on the same level as saying that violent video games cause violence.
Is satire "problematic" now? Because that's what Postal 2 is. Satire. And it satirizes fucking everything from Muslims to rednecks to, well, people who want to ban violent video games.
So is that "problematic" now? Just, satirizing things? Are we not allowed to satirize ideologies, stereotypes, movies, TV shows, comedians, criminals, idiots, bigots or politicians? Or is it just satirizing Muslims that's "problematic" according to you?
If that were the case, that would be pretty bigoted of you.
[sp]Also Muslim isn't a race[/sp]
Please explain what about that postal 2 mission is satire.
[QUOTE=Flameon;49858807]Please explain what about that postal 2 mission is satire.[/QUOTE]
"a way of using humor to show that someone or something is foolish, weak, bad, etc. : humor that shows the weaknesses or bad qualities of a person, government, society, etc."
How does the humor in the scene discount the idea that Muslims are interested in Jihad/terrorism?
[QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;49857773]A game made with the purpose of exploring racism and it's causes would be cool[/QUOTE]
Probably a simple scenario to push out is to have the player being an everyman in dire situations where the only information he receives is from controlled-outlets and propaganda while he has to make decisions of his own accord regarding his and his family's survival. This could easily work for the setting of most any fascist power governing over its own people. Nazi Germany being the most prominent.
Games have the unique advantage of agency that let the player decide how things work out. Do they attempt to go against the grain for what their personal perception of righteousness is but make living that much harder or do they toe the line and fall into peer pressure because that's what it takes to have any glimmer of hope for survival. Desperation is a powerful tool for player choices.
People didn't lambaste Papers, Please for showing glimpses of nationalism within the fictional game world it created. But to be fair, the game was more focused on surviving long enough to pay for your family's well-being which still brought up situations where you go against regulation for reasons that appeal to the player's better judgement.
It's an oddball subject to want to see represented more in media. Mostly because we know that people aren't simply predisposed to be assholes to one another, there's something else going on. There's an instinctual fear of things that are different, there's reinforcing behavior through one's upbringing and peer pressure, it's not exactly something you could cram into the span of a single game without being able to supplant a singular timespan in their development and focus on a single stage such as childhood or young adulthood.
[QUOTE=KillRay;49853071]How so? We already have those stormfront games and that one game where you kill Jews (Ethnic Cleansing I think), what's there to take from these?
[editline]2nd March 2016[/editline]
[url]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_Cleansing_(video_game)[/url]
Found it[/QUOTE]
Assuming the game isn't just "nigger killing simulator 2016 (obama edition)", and actually had some nuance and thought put into it, a video game made by a racist could give a lot of insight into how said racist thinks, and their ideals and stuff. This would be invaluable in opening up a discussion with him/other racists, and to maybe convince a few to be not racist.
I'm reminded of Daryl Davis, the [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daryl_Davis]black man who helped cause the collapse of the Maryland KKK because he had civil discussions with their members.[/url]
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