[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;27918394]Anywhere from 5 to over 10 million died in the Soviet famine of 1932–1933, million and a half from the Soviet Famine of 1947, between half a million to a million executed during the Great Purge, up to half a million from kulak collectivization (specifically, the famines caused by that and execution of non-compliants), up to 2 million died in the gulags, over a million from forced population transfers. Then there's the various war crimes, executions not related to the Great Terror (especially in the Eastern European nations) and so on.
64 million is indeed massively overblown (or they decided to include deaths on the Soviet side during the war, which would be silly), but 20 million is certainly not outside of the realm of possibility, especially considering the nature of mass killings meaning accurate record-keeping is either impossible or not encouraged at the time.
Apologies for my continuous editing, I have a habit of throwing out a post as quickly as possible, then continuing to refine it and correct errors.[/QUOTE]
Not to support Stalin or anything but the Holodomir was not intentional. :geno: It was a fucking famine. Now onto the article I wrote on the event:
[release]For decades, historians and the popular media have portrayed the great famine that occurred in the USSR in the 1930’s as intentional and genocidal. Former Ukrainian president Victor Yushchenko set the popular belief in Ukraine and declared, in 2007, that he wanted a law criminalizing Holodomor denial. In 2008, the European parliament adopted a resolution that recognized the Holodomor as a crime against humanity (later Viktor Yanukovych, current President of Ukraine, dismissed this claim). Glenn Beck’s documentary, Communism Revealed, also addressed the famine as an intended genocide against Ukrainian peasants. What Glenn Beck and historians alike choose not to recognize are the events leading up to the great famine and the reasons as to why the famine occurred.
During the collectivization of the early 1930’s, about 60% of peasant families were successfully placed into collective farms. These collectives were given the task to produce enough grain to meet the quota set by officials. These quotas were often unrealistic to almost impossible for the collectives to produce. In 1931, officials reported-in successful sowing which would meet their demands; however, a drought that occurred later that summer destroyed most of the potential harvest. In response to starving villagers stealing grain (which I wouldn’t really consider theft) and leaving the collectives en masse, Soviet officials enforced harsh consequences to those who left their farms. All the while, the Soviet Union exported about four million tons of grain to pay for massive imports of machinery, including farm equipment.
This is as far as the media goes to explain the famine and leads to misconception and confusion. First of all, the famine was not isolated in Ukraine, but occurred all along the Soviet grain belt in republics such as Russia, Belorussia, and Kazakhstan. Agricultural planning and work were much worse in 1932. Significant shortages and starvation resulted in emergency distribution of seed and food to the areas of famine. Regulation became less strict and as a result, private trade was allowed. However, Soviet leaders refused to recognize that another famine had occurred and continued with the optimistic procurement plans. In 1933 the leaders responded to official’s demands for food allotments and dispatched more than 20,000 industrial workers to assist the collective peasants. The year finished with a successful harvest that ultimately ended the famine in most of the regions.
The famine was the result of the absolutely massive investments of the first five-year plan that led to a shortage in food supply and a grain crisis in 1927 that lasted until 1929. It was clear that Soviet leaders intended to increase food production, but two years of natural disasters and agricultural disruption lowered food supply and forced the central government to ration whatever food that remained. Agricultural disruption was in part caused by an increase in sowing plans that disrupted the normal crop rotations and therefore the soil was exhausted. Starvation resulted in killing off of livestock, which included horses and cows that were used to operate farm equipment. The situation snowballed on its own and was made worse by the government’s unwillingness to recognize the famine and to send emergency provisions to where it was needed.
Because of the size of the areas affected by the famine, the Soviet Union wouldn’t have been able to adequately provide sufficient aid to everyone without reducing grain export. Not to mention “genocide” would have been counter-intuitive to Marxist ideology (that everyone was equal) which was prevalent at that time.[/release]
I don't really understand why people have such a problem with other people wearing pins on their hats. I mean, they look badass.
Communism bad, Russia good.
[QUOTE=Melnek;27919520]Holodomor resulted in a death toll of 2.7 million lower class civilians. 5-10 is outrageous as it would be a 1/3 of Ukraine's population at that time. Which is, again, statistically impossible and would pretty much leave entire cities plagued by disease and dead bodies on sidewalks which doesn't make any sense as Ukraine was thriving in the late 30's.
Add the numbers and you get about 5-10 million dead. Give or take based on the sources credibility.[/QUOTE]
Since when does U.S.S.R. == Ukraine?
[img]http://marknesop.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/ussr.gif[/img]
It is indeed possible for 20 million people to die in a country that spans 10 time zones. Where do you get your "Thriving Ukraine"? If it was from soviet propaganda, you're terribly wrong.
[QUOTE=Mio Akiyama;27860032]What's with facepunch's obsession with all things Russian?[/QUOTE]
Well Facepunchers find Russian stuff cool because of Communism. I on the other hand find German Austrian and Swiss stuff much more interesting but that's just me.
"Whoever does not miss the Soviet Union has no heart. Whoever wants it back has no brain."
-Vladimir Putin
Just throwing it out there.
[QUOTE=J. H. Rrerrman;27926973]"Whoever does not miss the Soviet Union has no heart. Whoever wants it back has no brain."
-Vladimir Putin
Just throwing it out there.[/QUOTE]
I dunno about that, Putin has a good second soviet union going putting himself in more or less indefinite power and all :downs:
[QUOTE=Melnek;27918052]20 million is an overblown exaggeration made by the west during the Cold War. Not to mention it's statistically fucking impossible. The real numbers only go as high as 4-8 million in total.
And Im not really trying to justify Stalin, but I hate popular historical misconceptions with a passion.
Hell, some people even say the death count went as high as 64 million which is fucking retarded and would literally mean at least 4 family members would be dead per family.[/QUOTE]
Incorrect, over 10 million died in the Holodomor which was pretty much ordered by Stalin, the Great Purges = 1 million, all of his industrial project took away around 2 million and the collectivization of the kulaks cost around 5-10 million people...
[QUOTE=Melnek;27919520]Holodomor resulted in a death toll of 2.7 million lower class civilians. 5-10 is outrageous as it would be a 1/3 of Ukraine's population at that time. Which is, again, statistically impossible and would pretty much leave entire cities plagued by disease and dead bodies on sidewalks which doesn't make any sense as Ukraine was thriving in the late 30's.
Add the numbers and you get about 5-10 million dead. Give or take based on the sources credibility.[/QUOTE]Hence why I edited to correct, the famine itself across the southern countries of the Soviet union was around 5-10 million. Thriving Ukraine? HAH! Fucking seriously? The 1937 census of the Soviet Union returned the same population numbers as before 1933, even after being adjusted. No country in the Soviet Union was thriving in that period. And again, not all of the deaths are recorded. For e.g. of the 7000 or so starvation victims found dead in Kiev, only 4000 were reported and registered.
[QUOTE=Miskatonic;27923514]Not to support Stalin or anything but the Holodomir was not intentional. :geno: It was a fucking famine. Now onto the article I wrote on the event:[/QUOTE]A famine exacerbated by Soviet policy; and in the Ukraine in particular: aid was withheld, food was specifically seized from starving peasants, livestock were taken if no grain could be produced, emigration from Ukraine was specifically forbidden and so on. They sure as fuck weren't helping.
[QUOTE=Earthen;27930253]Incorrect, over 10 million died in the Holodomor which was pretty much ordered by Stalin, the Great Purges = 1 million, all of his industrial project took away around 2 million and the collectivization of the kulaks cost around 5-10 million people...[/QUOTE]
I too can throw around ridiculous and illogical death tolls and pass them on as facts.
[QUOTE=bohb;27926727]Since when does U.S.S.R. == Ukraine?
[img_thumb]http://marknesop.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/ussr.gif[/img_thumb]
It is indeed possible for 20 million people to die in a country that spans 10 time zones. Where do you get your "Thriving Ukraine"? If it was from soviet propaganda, you're terribly wrong.[/QUOTE]
Holodomor took place in Ukraine genius.
[editline]8th February 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;27930551]Hence why I edited to correct, the famine itself across the southern countries of the Soviet union was around 5-10 million. Thriving Ukraine? HAH! Fucking seriously? The 1937 census of the Soviet Union returned the same population numbers as before 1933, even after being adjusted. No country in the Soviet Union was thriving in that period. And again, not all of the deaths are recorded. For e.g. of the 7000 or so starvation victims found dead in Kiev, only 4000 were reported and registered. [/quote]
I know, I just take all the numbers from every book and historian I've heard and read and create an average of people who have lost their lives. On the other hand you've got people here who read a wikipedia page which rarely offers accurate numbers from a good amount of sources and think they suddenly know all about a subject.
[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;27930551]A famine exacerbated by Soviet policy; and in the Ukraine in particular: aid was withheld, food was specifically seized from starving peasants, livestock were taken if no grain could be produced, emigration from Ukraine was specifically forbidden and so on. They sure as fuck weren't helping.[/QUOTE]
Just because they weren't helping doesn't mean they caused it. Not to mention the huge tensions between Russia and a good amount of European countries, especially Germany. Everyone feared war and usually in any country during or before war food is reserved and distributed amongst the military and upper class civilians, mainly high authority figures. Basically civilians came last when it came to resources.
[QUOTE=Melnek;27930906]I too can throw around ridiculous and illogical death tolls and pass them on as facts.
Holodomor took place in Ukraine genius.
[editline]8th February 2011[/editline]
I know, I just take all the numbers from every book and historian I've heard and read and create an average of people who have lost their lives. On the other hand you've got people here who read a wikipedia page which rarely offers accurate numbers from a good amount of sources and think they suddenly know all about a subject.
Just because they weren't helping doesn't mean they caused it. Not to mention the huge tensions between Russia and a good amount of European countries, especially Germany. Everyone feared war and usually in any country during or before war food is reserved and distributed amongst the military and upper class civilians, mainly high authority figures. Basically civilians came last when it came to resources.[/QUOTE]
Holy fucking shit, they did cause it. Ever heard of forced collectivization? Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union at the time, thus it counts. The numbers aren't illogical, I've studied Soviet history enough to know the shit they did.
[editline]8th February 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Melnek;27919520]Holodomor resulted in a death toll of 2.7 million lower class civilians. 5-10 is outrageous as it would be a 1/3 of Ukraine's population at that time. Which is, again, statistically impossible and would pretty much leave entire cities plagued by disease and dead bodies on sidewalks which doesn't make any sense as Ukraine was thriving in the late 30's.
Add the numbers and you get about 5-10 million dead. Give or take based on the sources credibility.[/QUOTE]
Since when was anything thriving in the Soviet Union?
Ukraine was thriving economically during the late 30's. Production was up by 44%. And infrastructure was improved greatly. Granted the population was almost run down by Stalinism and forced Russification.
[editline]8th February 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Earthen;27930984]Since when was anything thriving in the Soviet Union?[/QUOTE]
Obviously you dont know much about Soviet history then.
[QUOTE=Melnek;27930906]Just because they weren't helping doesn't mean they caused it. Not to mention the huge tensions between Russia and a good amount of European countries, especially Germany. Everyone feared war and usually in any country during or before war food is reserved and distributed amongst the military and upper class civilians, mainly high authority figures. Basically civilians came last when it came to resources.[/QUOTE]Forced collectivization, then stealing the food from starving peasants, shooting those who took even a handful of mouldy wheat to stave off death.
Massive incompetence at best, malicious intent at worst.
EDIT: Not to mention the massive amounts of wheat exported out could have stopped the famine right there if it hadn't been taken. Those lives could have been saved if that food wasn't taken from them, it was way more than would have been needed to feed the army or the party leadership.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;27860208]im a 19 year old american and i think soviet retro art is fucking cool looking
how is this shit not cool looking
[img_thumb]http://andrikyrychok.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/0000-7136-4cccp-russian-propaganda-posters2.jpg[/img_thumb]
[img_thumb]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_5Z0iQNOJJNg/TSbhD2lS-UI/AAAAAAAAAyU/8yY0TblYHO0/s1600/soviet_propaganda.jpg[/img_thumb]
[img_thumb]http://youthoughtwewouldntnotice.com/blog3/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/sovietworker.jpg[/img_thumb][/QUOTE]
Because U.S.S.R Was horrible like fuck, and you faggots think its all rave party.
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Don't call people faggots" - Swebonny))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=Melnek;27930996]Ukraine was thriving economically during the late 30's. Production was up by 44%. And infrastructure was improved greatly. Granted the population was almost run down by Stalinism and forced Russification.
[editline]8th February 2011[/editline]
Obviously you dont know much about Soviet history then.[/QUOTE]
I see you ignored collectivization, but thats okay. I know enough about Soviet history to know that the quality of life was never even close to that of Western Europe nor to that of the US. The only thing that grew was Industry while people were left to rot. Also, there was no reason to fear Germany during the time of the Holodomor, the Treaty of Rapallo which essentially meant that Germany and the USSR would support each other with supplies and Germany would be allowed to train troops on Soviet ground. It was re-affirmed in the Treaty of Berlin and renewed in 1931. The Holodomor was long before the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. Stalin was too concerned with consolidating power than fearing the Germans.
[QUOTE=Ghost656;27933199]Because U.S.S.R Was horrible like fuck, and you faggots think its all rave party.[/QUOTE]
And you're completely missing the point there. Well done.
I have a couple of pins too. Lots of russians and estonians tend to sell their USSR stuff here in Finland.
[QUOTE=-ZeeBo-;27861157]Hey cool, I got the same kind of pins too. I got them on a pilotka.
[img_thumb]http://gallery.kitmaker.net/data/25208/pilotka.jpg[/img_thumb][/QUOTE]
This is the navy one I think. Its really old now, It got some letters and stuff on the inside.
[img_thumb]http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6218060/Ingebrigt/Bilde401.jpg[/img_thumb]
[QUOTE=ForestRaptor;27948762]I have a couple of pins too. Lots of russians and estonians tend to sell their USSR stuff here in Finland.[/QUOTE]
"hey Finland, Sorry we tried to fuck your shit up in the winter war... wanna buy some of the stuff we had when we were trying to crush your nation?"
[QUOTE=Crhem van der B;27918361]Problem is you're too dumb to understand what these means what what the fuck the Russians did to so many people.
If you lived in the USSR or in a post-Soviet country, you'd understand, but I guess the USSR is like Che Guevara, some fucking insane dude which murdered people for no reason and got popular for being a "romantic revolutionist" or whatever.[/QUOTE]
He said absolutely nothing about communist ideals; he just said he likes the artwork associated with it. That's like saying you're not allowed to enjoy listening to Wagner because he was an anti-semite.
Pin number 2 looks best.
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