• 100,000 Revenants - A Doom 4 SnapMap Map Time Lapse
    52 replies, posted
[QUOTE=elevate;50370434]Original Doom had arbitrary limits too, including the famous 128 visplanes limit. I agree that this is pretty pathetic though. [URL]http://doomwiki.org/wiki/Static_limits[/URL] According to my link, original Doom had a 128 vissprite limit. Obviously the 100,000 revenants level is meant for source ports, which have enhanced capabilities.[/QUOTE] and to add this. Here's a video what happens if you go beyond that limit. [video=youtube;W5AHY51eU6Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5AHY51eU6Q[/video] There may be a ear rape in some moments in a form of static noise.
[QUOTE=rndgenerator;50370452]I have no idea why you even mention Halo 5? How's that relevant?[/QUOTE] Both are map editors and both can make gamemodes with the exception of AI which only Doom has
[QUOTE=darth-veger;50370552]Both are map editors and both can make gamemodes with the exception of AI which only Doom has[/QUOTE]Then it's not really relevant, is it? AI is a big part of this topic.
[QUOTE=Feuver;50370348]I think your computer would literally overheat/bluescreen in that scenario.[/QUOTE] Some of us have GPU and CPU coolers, they tend to keep that from happening.
[QUOTE=rndgenerator;50370620]Then it's not really relevant, is it? AI is a big part of this topic.[/QUOTE] So are the restrictions
[QUOTE=AntonioR;50369017]In their defense those 12 revenants probably have more triangles in them than those 100 000 sprites in the original, not to mention all the calculations that have to be done for the physics, animations and rendering a 3D model, compared to a 2D sprite. Plus I doubt the 100 000 map would run on a 1993 PC, and people showing it off probably run it on new PCs. So, maybe in 20 years PCs will be able to handle 100 000 revenants from 2016 in id tech 6 and we can make a fair comparison then.[/QUOTE] Except unlike the original Doom map editor, this is a hard coded limitation. That's the problem this video is showcasing. In 20 years, this limit will still be there.
[QUOTE=Fapplejack;50368315]That's kind of pathetic. Original Doom had levels with easily 200+ enemies in a single level but the creator can't run even 12 in the same room?[/QUOTE] It's pretty understandable, if you wanted to have as many enemies as classic doom you'd have to have cannon-fodder-tier AI, and other tradeoffs that make it not worth it.
So maybe if we're lucky they will unlock the limits on PC or someone will figure out how to mod/hack the engine to allow unlimited entities...
[QUOTE=Agent_Wesker;50370841]So maybe if we're lucky they will unlock the limits on PC or someone will figure out how to mod/hack the engine to allow unlimited entities...[/QUOTE] While that could happen I doubt you'd be able to actually upload it to snapmap unless officially supported.
[QUOTE=Agent_Wesker;50370841]So maybe if we're lucky they will unlock the limits on PC or someone will figure out how to mod/hack the engine to allow unlimited entities...[/QUOTE] I imagine you could memory hack the values, though it won't let you actually publish them I imagine but that's not a big deal for now. How does doom save these maps? Couldn't you simply share it with someone directly? Sounds like a doomnexus idea.
Beyond that, complex entity chains can corrupt maps entirely and make them unloadable. Snap map DOES have potential but snapmap kinda shoots itself in the foot with arbitrary limits, issues that should have been QA'd before launch and poor content selection. Hopefully a year from now we'll have a much better snapmap system, including more environments and more ents.
[QUOTE=Ta16;50370866]Beyond that, complex entity chains can corrupt maps entirely and make them unloadable. Snap map DOES have potential but snapmap kinda shoots itself in the foot with [B]arbitrary limits[/B], issues that should have been QA'd before launch and poor content selection. Hopefully a year from now we'll have a much better snapmap system, including more environments and more ents.[/QUOTE] what makes you the judge of what's arbitrary and what's not? Do you think the devs just rolled a die and said 'yep that's the enemy limit'?
Surely someone's gonna hack the jesus out of map editing and it'll be possible again, right? It can't be a game limitation, like c'mon what were they thinking..
[QUOTE=cdr248;50370914]what makes you the judge of what's arbitrary and what's not? Do you think the devs just rolled a die and said 'yep that's the enemy limit'?[/QUOTE] Arbitrary limits for the PC since they wanted to make the maps "console compatible". Solution would have been to just make it so that maps going beyond the limits can't be published to consoles but could still be played on PC.
[QUOTE=Agent_Wesker;50370841]So maybe if we're lucky they will unlock the limits on PC or someone will figure out how to mod/hack the engine to allow unlimited entities...[/QUOTE] If game files are not consistent/modified in any way (or console commands are used) the game is put in "dev mode", which basically completely locks the game down, disables multiplayer access and flags saves and snapmaps changed during dev mode to block achievements and the ability to upload those maps. This pretty much effectively kills any possibilities to tinker with the game and also punishes people playing the game normally because of how trigger-happy the dev mode is (if you crash chances are you'll have to jump through hoops to unflag the dev mode on your save). [QUOTE=cdr248;50370914]what makes you the judge of what's arbitrary and what's not? Do you think the devs just rolled a die and said 'yep that's the enemy limit'?[/QUOTE] Arbitrary or not you can't deny how unreasonable snapmap's limitations are. Their substitute for actual modding tools isn't something on the scale of "daddy's powertools", but something more along the line of plastic tools for children that only allow people to produce crippled content because of limitations. And what about snapmap's 4 player limitation which is clearly arbitrary? Not only are the tools they provide you with limited in several ways but you're also forced to create homogeneous cookie-cutter content for a measly 1-4 players count (2v2 CTF anyone?). I was really looking forward for snapmap before the game came out and honestly after getting to use it I'm hating it more and more because any idea I try to translate into the tool ends up being horribly mutilated by the tool's restrictions.
[QUOTE=elowin;50370814]Except unlike the original Doom map editor, this is a hard coded limitation. That's the problem this video is showcasing. In 20 years, this limit will still be there.[/QUOTE] The original Doom editing tools were never released to the public, so nothing's changed in that regard, and the source code had arbitrary, hardcoded limits such as the visplanes too. Had it not been for the community, those limits would still be there. The big difference today however is that user-created modding tools are basically impossible with today's games. [editline]22nd May 2016[/editline] Also, you can hardly say that the limits are arbitrary since anything past 12 monsters would probably slow the game down to a crawl on most machines, including consoles. This also was the reason for visplanes limits in the original for example. [editline]22nd May 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=StrawberryClock;50371027]Arbitrary limits for the PC since they wanted to make the maps "console compatible". Solution would have been to just make it so that maps going beyond the limits can't be published to consoles but could still be played on PC.[/QUOTE] So you go from 12 monsters at a time to what, 18? What a difference!
[QUOTE=Doom64hunter;50372120]So you go from 12 monsters at a time to what, 18? What a difference![/QUOTE] Hey, uh, I don't know if you know, but some PC's are actually powerful, it's crazy right? Who would believe that?!
[QUOTE=Agent_Wesker;50370841]So maybe if we're lucky they will unlock the limits on PC or someone will figure out how to mod/hack the engine to allow unlimited entities...[/QUOTE] I'm not a modder but if this involves playing with the .exe file then good luck, game is protected by Denuvo which doesn't prevent content mods but any mod of the .exe file to run the game.
[QUOTE=Doom64hunter;50372120]So you go from 12 monsters at a time to what, 18? What a difference![/QUOTE] A 50% difference from what we have now is still better than a 0% difference [editline]22nd May 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=ManFlakes;50372929]Hey, uh, I don't know if you know, but some PC's are actually powerful, it's crazy right? Who would believe that?![/QUOTE] Not only this, but the game should be built to run for future machines like Doom 3 was
It kind of pisses me off that the game suddenly goes "hey there friendo you can't put any more rooms or monsters in the map you might actually do something to your fragile little computer heh". Jesus, if the game crashes because my pc can't handle it then fine. At least let me make the attempt instead of putting random limits on what snapmap can do.
[QUOTE=rndgenerator;50370391]Do people actually believe this when they say that? It's like you can't get any more ignorant on this topic. While most people don't expect 100k 3D models, they do expect more than 12 and that is very reasonable. [/QUOTE] I don't recall saying we couldn't have a 30-50 demons live limit and 200-300 demons max. I'm saying that there are reasons for limits in most user input systems. [QUOTE]Not everyone runs on console hardware level PCs, some of us can actually handle 13 demons live at once. When it comes to pc there is no reason why this limit should be hard enforced. If they're so worried about experience, make it so maps that go over limit are not shown to casuals in the map browser. A custom filter where you can tick "show maps that go over limit" would fix that issue and make everyone happy. [/QUOTE] There will always be hard enforced limitations, most mod tools have an entity limit or size limit, which forces you to make more maps/divide your work. Things like the level builder in Source or otherwise. These can be quite massive/ludicrous, but there's always a limit somewhere. I still agree that the SnapMap limitations makes it really weak compared to real mod tools. [Quote]Not how computers work, holy shit man. If your setup isn't badly installed or damaged beforehand, it will not literally do any of these things.[/Quote] A computer can overheat or shutdown if the hardware gets too hot. [editline]24th May 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=cdr248;50370914]what makes you the judge of what's arbitrary and what's not? Do you think the devs just rolled a die and said 'yep that's the enemy limit'?[/QUOTE] Pretty sure they ran a battery of test in QA to see what the engine could run correctly on each different console. They must've noticed that at some point, having X number of demons at the same time in the map could lead to SLIGHT performance loss, and they put that as the limit for all systems, including PC. They prioritized smooth performance across all platforms instead of deciding that limit for each individual platforms, because of cross-platform snap-map. Which really shouldn't have happened in the first place, because it causes the most powerful system to suffer the limitations of the most gimped system, and the average gaming PC is generally much better than all consoles on the market right now is indicative that they didn't develop snapmap with PC in mind.
[QUOTE=Feuver;50381320] A computer can overheat or shutdown if the hardware gets too hot. [/QUOTE] And if you have a proper cooler and airflow in your chassis, your computer can handle running at 100% load without overheating.
[QUOTE=Dissolution;50369263]They can limit that individually for each demon, then. Or not at all, like a map maker should. Let the creator optimize, don't do it for them.[/QUOTE] I would preferred Little Big Planet's method of limiting item placement based on how complex you build things.
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