[QUOTE=C47;37045736]Your like a broken record. If that was the case, then non-Muslim communities never would have existed under Islam rule. History is proof against your bullshit. There is no secret meaning, never said there was. But you like a simpleton like to take 3-4 words of choice out of the Quran and make a idiotic claim.[/quote]
First of all, I don't like a broken record.
And they exist till now because no one gave a single shit about violence in the past. Even the empires themselves were violent and discriminative themselves. Islam managed to make its way to our present time with its violence. And no, there are no secret meanings in verses. If it says "Kill non-muslims", it means "Kill non-muslims" but you say everything's got a different meaning. No, they don't.
[QUOTE=C47;37045736]Translations can be erroneous. The issue of striking is debatable. There are two views
View 1: As explained above (which you obviously didnt read) The word "daraba" which implies desert/seperate (ie send them back to their families) or divorce. This makes more sense because it goes with the Prophets teachings that the wife should not be beaten.
View 2: This is a view of a companion of the Prophet who said it means to hit the wife with a stick smaller than the size of an index finger and it should induce no pain. This obviously holds less ground because what the Prophet said is > than what his companion thinks.
In either case, you loose trying to prove Islam allows brutal/savage behavior of the husband towards the wife.
[/quote]
Hit your wife with a stick shorter than a finger? What the fuck is that even supposed to mean? In Qur'an, it clearly says in a lot of verses that women are inferior to men both physically and socially. It also says that you can beat them up if they don't obey.
Qur'an is also violent against people who have sex before marriage.
[QUOTE=C47;37045736]So? Islam doesnt treat male and females exactly the same. In some cases, men have more rights and in other cases women have more rights over men. I thought I mentioned this before, Islam has [B]gender roles assigned[/B], whether your [I]animal-sex-approving-enlightened[/I] civilization likes it or not. Nobody cares.[/quote]
No one cares if we want to keep men and women on the same level? We care, Muslim. Islam has no place in our society since it can't blend in and it's a violent piece of crap.
[QUOTE=C47;37045736]Verses from the Quran can also prove it to be Ghandi's manuals. But it aint. Its not a purely violent book, neither is it a pacifists guide to galaxy.[/quote]
Ghandi's manuals? Yeah, and I wrote Mein Kampf.
Even if it has a few violent and discriminative verses in it (which isn't, there are actually hundreds), it is enough for us to call Islam a violent hate cult. It is a violent hate cult.
[QUOTE=C47;37045736]Oh yeah so, there is stoning to death punishment for married spouses who have committed adultery. Since when did this become an issue specific to Islam? And how is it that you bring this as injustice to women, when men are also mentioned in the verse, ROFL[/quote]
Since when? Since we began debating about how Islam is a violent hate cult.
And just because both men and women are punished for having sex before marriage makes it okay to kill/torture them? For doing something completely peaceful out of love?
[QUOTE=C47;37045736]Islam is violent towards those who commit what it considers acts of a wrong-doing. I already accept that and its just their take on how to treat criminals. They are entitled to their methods.[/quote]
Thanks for admitting Islam is violent against people who have sex. Violent as in they torture and/or kill them.
They are also violent and discriminative against non-muslims, did you read Qur'an?
[QUOTE=C47;37045736]
Please try to be neutral. The "muslims" you talk about are misfits of Islam, a few who keep repeating BS like sonerin trying to get some support and sympathy from the west. I agree the Quran is a violent book, but I also believe it is a peaceful book, ie there is a balanced amount of violent+peace verses. It needs to be violent against aggressors, and peaceful towards those who dont seek to destroy islam and want to be in peace as well.
Makes sense to me.[/QUOTE]
At last you truly see. Islam is a violent book and is discriminative. Just because they throw in a few "peaceful" verses won't make it "balanced" or any more peaceful. It has violence and discrimination, it is violent and discriminative.
[editline]2nd August 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=C47;37046023]Bark bark generic comment without proof is irrelevant bark bark I can't read shit bark bark.[/QUOTE]
I and they've posted a lot of verses and Qur'anic sayings to prove this.
[QUOTE=C47;37046023]The non-muslims under islamic rule have rights, rights to their own courts, rights to their own religious places of worship, rights to security (whether it is harm from non-muslims of muslims), rights to charity. But they dont have rights to propagate their religion. How is that being a slave to a muslim?[/QUOTE]
A Muslim can easily say "Allah exists" in a Muslim society, a non-Muslim can't easily say "Allah doesn't exist" in a Muslim society and you'll probably end up dead.
That's how you're a slave. And no, it's not like that. Non-Muslims in Islamic countries have very limited rights. You can actually get murdered by Muslims.
Islamic states also kill homosexuals, kill "adulterers", etc.
[QUOTE=C47;37046023]Well, like I said, the Quran is interpreted as how their Prophet and society lived it under those times. Those who take it literally or the only source of guidance are bound to be mislead from its teachings. The quran itself says that it is to be understood as how the prophet explained it to them. People who take pacifist views to please the west, or those who go extreme in a killing mode are both wrong and rejected by the Quran.
Once again, as a whole it is balanced. You have to live amongst Muslims to know their point of view, CNN/BCC/ABC are all BS and hardly neutral.
The contradictions are usually explained through some level of research, something nobody bothers doing nowadays.[/QUOTE]
Quran literally tells you to kill non-muslims and discriminate them, it finds women inferior, etc. This isn't about war, stop pulling the war/past-times card already.
And no, contradictions are not explained. They are left like what they are, they can't be explained because Islam isn't even real. What do you expect from a cult that thinks Earth is flat?
Sick of hearing this in Australian news about how our country should convert to this shit.
[QUOTE=C47;37046023]But they dont have rights to propagate their religion. How is that being a slave to a muslim?[/QUOTE]
Why don't they have the rights to do that?
[QUOTE=SCopE5000;37057863]Why don't they have the rights to do that?[/QUOTE]
Because Qur'an: Kill non-muslims unless they convert into Islam.
If it's going to come down to religion difference making people pay more tax monay, I will be sure to fuck all of religion (none excluded) [b]faster[/b] than the speed of light with my penis. I don't give a fuck if you're Muslam, Krischin, Juish, Bootyist, Rastafaroam or some other shit. YOU ARE THE ONES WHO ARE THE BALL LICKERS!
Not vivid enough? Here is a visual aid:
[url]http://s12.postimage.org/48043ly3x/fuck_religion.png[/url]
Once I successfully impregnate every religion, they will proceed to crap out my advanced ever-[b]evolving[/b] mutant turtles within 12-14day, which will shit out their darkmatter shit of destruction and send the whole fucking universe into entropy.
Atheism ftw
</thread>.
Sorry. Atheism in the form of what you just showed is the most horrible future for mankind as I see it. I don't want pretentious douche bags who insult historical cultures just because of what people do with it. So screw that noise and I'll just think whole-heartily without any teenage ambition of complete biased opinions. So with all that said and done people who think like you are men of ball licking. Please escape the ball licking unless you otherwise enjoy it.
Also sonerin. As much as what you say is true in certain areas of the world for Islam on how Muslims use the Quran, to me I wanted to find out how there were peaceful Muslims and what I stated before is that they just read it as half history and to why certain rules were they way they were and to why they did them. It is more of a research of the Quran and on why certain suras were written.
[QUOTE=choco cookie;37066661]Sorry. Atheism in the form of what you just showed is the most horrible future for mankind as I see it. I don't want pretentious douche bags who insult historical cultures just because of what people do with it. So screw that noise and I'll just think whole-heartily without any teenage ambition of complete biased opinions. So with all that said and done people who think like you are men of ball licking. Please escape the ball licking unless you otherwise enjoy it.
Also sonerin. As much as what you say is true in certain areas of the world for Islam on how Muslims use the Quran, to me I wanted to find out how there were peaceful Muslims and what I stated before is that they just read it as half history and to why certain rules were they way they were and to why they did them. It is more of a research of the Quran and on why certain suras were written.[/QUOTE]
Nothing can justify the violence of Islam.
[QUOTE=C47;37046023]
People who take pacifist views to please the west, or those who go extreme in a killing mode are both wrong and [b]rejected by the Quran[/b].
[/QUOTE]
I'd rather be rejected by a human.
[editline]4th August 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=sonerin;37063088]Because Qur'an: Kill non-muslims unless they convert into Islam.[/QUOTE]
Non Muslims are lesser beings. It's ok to kill them.
[QUOTE=sonerin;37077062]Nothing can justify the violence of Islam.[/QUOTE]
Well, I never said it was justified, but not all Muslims follow and act in violence through the Quran. In fact mostly a majority.
Also fritzel this isn't about you or your asinine comments on the subject which adds no real thought into this thread.
[QUOTE=sonerin;37046432]What do you expect from a cult that thinks Earth is flat?[/QUOTE]
And we have made the earth egg shaped 79:30
Before you quote the verses of the carpet, and cry "contradiction in quran", do us all a favour and atleast do some research on it. but i dont your going to go that far, your [B]brain will probably stop at the egg part[/B].
The rest of your counterarguments are just affirming what i said before. Islam is violent towards what it considers criminal acts, whether its sex out of marriage, drinking whatever. [B]whether they constitute a crime or not is another story altogether[/B] and islam isnt the only system that holds such views. Obviously "enlightened" current societies where engaging in sex with animals is considered ok and heck even brothels are opened up for that, they are gonna have trouble with islam.
same goes for what you cry about on how women are inferior in islam. a neutral pov is rather that both men and women are assigned different tasks/roles/resposibilites, in some cases men are responsible and burdened and women have priveleges. but you dont see bigots pointing those out because apparently "oh look at the women oppressing ppl" propaganda sells well in the west, where women are so liberated rofl.
And then there are islamic stances of treatment of women, which conflict with what you wanna portray
[quote]Whosoever has a daughter and he does not bury her alive, does not insult her, [B]and does not favor his son over her[/B], God will enter him into Paradise[/quote]
[quote][B]The most perfect believers are the best in conduct and best of you are those who are best to their wives.[/B][/quote]
[quote]O Messenger of God, who among the people is the[B] most worthy of my good company[/B]? The Prophet (P) said, Your mother. The man said then who else: The Prophet (P) said, Your mother. The man asked, Then who else? Only then did the Prophet (P) say, Your father. (Al-Bukhari and Muslim). [/quote]
[quote]It is the generous (in character) who is good to women, and it is the wicked who insults them.[/quote]
These are enough for me to know that there is more to than what you claim about islam treating women horribly.
[QUOTE=SCopE5000;37057863]Why don't they have the rights to do that?[/QUOTE]
because they believe their system is the right system and allowing other religions to preach openly would mean that they accept that religion as a valid religion for their followers to follow. it might sound off as arrogant, but its simply a measure to protect the masses from being "brain-washed" from their pov.
on the contrary, islam calls for the intellectuals to gather and settle/resort/debate differences but under controlled environments (controlled as is responsible and unbiased). cant find the reference for that.
[QUOTE=sonerin;37063088]Because Qur'an: Kill non-muslims unless they convert into Islam.[/QUOTE]
seriously, stop trolling.
choco cookie is the only one showing genuine interest in finding out the real deal behind the matter. Here's a recent study supported by a grant from the Office of Naval Research written by 3 non-muslims who explain the verses of the sword and why islamic extremists use them:
[quote][B]EXECUTIVE SUMMARY[/B]
Islamist extremists make heavy use of the Qur’an (Islam’s most sacred text) in their strategic communication. This study analyzed the most frequently cited or quoted verses in the Center for Strategic Communication’s database of over 2,000 extremist texts. The texts date from the years 1998 to 2011, and originate primarily from the Middle East and North Africa. Taking this data as a starting point, we provide a qualitative analysis of the historical contexts and core narrative components of the cited passages.
The results confirm certain common assumptions about extremist readings of the Qur’an. There is a disproportionate use of surahs (chapters) from the later Medinan over the earlier Meccan period – only one of the top ten most frequently cited surahs of the Qur’an is Meccan. The Medinan surahs also fall within a certain historical window representing the onset and completion of military conflict between the earliest Muslims and the “pagan” clans of Mecca and their allies.
[B]Other findings in the report raise questions about the veracity of claims often made by analysts. The most surprising is the near absence of the well-known [U]“Verse of the Sword” (9:5)[/U] from the extremist texts. Widely regarded as the most militant or violent passage of the Qur’an, it is [U]treated as a divine call for offensive warfare on a global scale[/U]. It is also regarded as a verse which supersedes over one hundred other verses of the Qur’an that counsel patience, tolerance, and forgiveness.[/B]
[B]
We conclude that verses extremists cite from the [U]Qur’an do not suggest an aggressive offensive foe seeking domination and conquest of unbelievers[/U], as is commonly assumed. [U]Instead they deal with themes of victimization, dishonor, and retribution[/U]. This shows close integration with the rhetorical vision of Islamist extremists.[/B]
Based on this analysis [U][B]we recommend that the West abandon claims that Islamist extremists seek world domination, focus on counteracting or addressing claims of victimage[/B][/U], emphasize alternative means of deliverance, and work to undermine the “champion” image sought by extremists.[/quote]
Link to text : [URL]http://csc.asu.edu/wp-content/uploads/pdf/csc1202-quran-verses.pdf[/URL]
This is the difference between intellectuals and retarded bigots.
You can either choose to believe this and the islamic view point on those verses, or go with the troll sonerin who hasnt countered my reply in any sensible form (with proofs) other than repeating his pov like a parrot.
And with that, I leave this section, clearly it isnt moderated well enough to hold a proper discussion/debate.
[quote]
Just say the truth from your Lord, then [B]whosoever wants to believe let him believe[/B] and [B]whosoever wants to disbelieve let him disbelieve[/B].
Quran 18:29
[/quote]
^^you have clearly chosen the abrogated verses which were at the time when Muhammad was not at his peak.
Good job, sir.
I will stay away from this thread as I don't have the intent and time for going through the nonsensical things written in there and quoting the verses here for rebuttals. Not to forget the unfortunate marriage of Aisha as a kid. A practice followed in Islamic states at masses.
I hope that human rises high enough to be independent of such archaic books of irrational and gruesome violence.
Fritzel if you don't to put time into debating in a debate thread then why bother. Humans won't ever rise enough because you contribute to the problem of people thinking they are better than something or degrade something without delving into the subject. I could ask you why it was not his peak, but you probably couldn't put out a reason right there without attempting to research the matter.
But yes, Sura 9:5 and 18:26. Sura 18:26 is of a peaceful matter and is a Meccan sura whereas 9:5 is a Medinan sura which gives reason as to why extremists or pure followers follow 9:5 and not 18:26 since there is a contradiction and the latest one overwrites.
It is sad to see only a couple of people to able to actually debate correctly and those people be aggravated over others high horse of opinion. If you really can't change your mid on a subject when you have already put no research on the matter then why are you close-minded on the subject? You have the chance to explain yourself completely yet you just put out the same thing over and over without the reason as to why you say that it is like that. It is very arbitrary and rude to those who actually want to debate.
[QUOTE=C47;37087154]And we have made the earth egg shaped 79:30[/QUOTE]
Way to provide false information.
"And after that He spread the earth." 79:30, from Quran.[/B].
[QUOTE=C47;37087154]The rest of your counterarguments are just affirming what i said before. Islam is violent towards what it considers criminal acts, whether its sex out of marriage, drinking whatever. [B]whether they constitute a crime or not is another story altogether[/B] and islam isnt the only system that holds such views. Obviously "enlightened" current societies where engaging in sex with animals is considered ok and heck even brothels are opened up for that, they are gonna have trouble with islam.[/QUOTE]
Since when is it a crime to not be a Muslim? Let alone that, it's violent against people having sex before marriage, drinking, homosexuals, et cetera. Just because Islam finds it as a crime makes everything okay?
[QUOTE=C47;37087154]same goes for what you cry about on how women are inferior in islam. a neutral pov is rather that both men and women are assigned different tasks/roles/resposibilites, in some cases men are responsible and burdened and women have priveleges. but you dont see bigots pointing those out because apparently "oh look at the women oppressing ppl" propaganda sells well in the west, where women are so liberated rofl. [/QUOTE]
The fact is Islam finds women inferior to men, allows men to beat women up, discriminates women on certain occasions and such, thus proving my accusation right. Islam = discriminative against women.
[QUOTE=C47;37087154]because they believe their system is the right system and allowing other religions to preach openly would mean that they accept that religion as a valid religion for their followers to follow. it might sound off as arrogant, but its simply a measure to protect the masses from being "brain-washed" from their pov. [/QUOTE]
Once again, thanks for proving my point right. Islam is discriminative against other beliefs.
[QUOTE=C47;37087154]seriously, stop trolling.
choco cookie is the only one showing genuine interest in finding out the real deal behind the matter. Here's a recent study supported by a grant from the Office of Naval Research written by 3 non-muslims who explain the verses of the sword and why islamic extremists use them:
Link to text : [URL]http://csc.asu.edu/wp-content/uploads/pdf/csc1202-quran-verses.pdf[/URL]
This is the difference between intellectuals and retarded bigots.
You can either choose to believe this and the islamic view point on those verses, or go with the troll sonerin who hasnt countered my reply in any sensible form (with proofs) other than repeating his pov like a parrot.
And with that, I leave this section, clearly it isnt moderated well enough to hold a proper discussion/debate.[/QUOTE]
I'm not trolling, I'm saying what Quran is saying. Qur'an: kill non-muslims. And the information you provided is biased. It doesn't even explain the violent verses in Qur'an, it's focused on a single verse.
And the last verse you just quoted also contradicts with other verses which are violent.
4:89-”"Seize the unbelievers and slay them wherever ye find them; and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”
2:89-”Therefore, the curse of Allah is upon the unbelievers!”
2:191-”Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you, for persecution is worse than slaughter…. Such is the reward of those who reject faith.”
2:193-”Fight against the unbelievers until there is no dissension, and the religion is for Allah. (Fight until no other religion exists but Islam.)”
3:10-”Those who disbelieve, neither their riches nor their children shall save them from Allah. They shall become the fuel of the fire.”
3:151-”We will throw terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve.”
I can post a lot more.
Those verses are enough to justify my accusation. Islam is violent, agressive, discriminative.
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