Virtual Real Talk (The Jimquisition) - General

[QUOTE=simkas;51188693]So you pretty much just come in here you to boast your tech knowledge even though it bears no relevance to the discussion and doesn't bring up any points? Yeah, great job.[/QUOTE] My point being: [QUOTE=simkas;51188277]Most of the things you just said are outright wrong. The VR motion controllers are pretty fucking far from being "just" better Wiimotes, Wiimote mostly just relied on tracking its position using an IR sensor and detecting some very primitive gestures. VR motion controllers are actual motion controllers as they are fully tracked in 3d space all the time. The Vive camera (which the fact that you called it a "camera" means you don't even have any idea what the Vive is) isn't even remotely similar to a Kinect, it's not a depth camera, they're laser sensors that track the position of the headset and controllers. And I don't even know what you're going on about the "smartphone in a helmet" unless you're talking about things like google cardboard or Gear VR which are entirely different thing altogether.[/QUOTE] Whatever terms Valve is using with "lasers" and "Lighthouse" or whatnot, it's ultimately the exact same IR camera/LED combo that the Wiimote and Kinect use, and it merely uses [i]multiple[/i] IR sensors in lieu of the IR/visible combo Kinect uses or the IR sensor combined with internal chips that the Wiimote uses. I couldn't exactly find anywhere whether or not the VR controllers have their own internal chips, but if they do, that ultimately makes them exactly what I said they were: suped-up Wiimotes. And even if they don't, that would make the difference in fidelity even more negligible. I've used the best motion tech on the market. Honestly, anything from the Wiimote Plus onward is gonna be just fine for even serious gaming.

[QUOTE]Vive's "special sensor" is ultimately just the same kind of camera that's in a Wiimote to track the sensor bar, which pretty much just make the VR controllers Wiimotes with the points of reference reversed and the IR tracking system suped-up. [/QUOTE] so because the tech is similar it's the same thing? you have to be shitting me mate :v: What. The difference is that VR controllers can go pretty much everywhere you want and don't work purely on point+gesture but instead real location sensing. There is no "Front". I'm not sure why that comparison even matters, if they are "Just suped-up wiimotes" what does it even matter? Is it bad for them to be superb wiimotes? I always call the vive controllers ViiMotes as a joke. The software behind the wiimotes work as basically really fancy gesture control. The current motion controllers basically work based on location, speed, etcetc. it doesn't matter what tech is used behind it, what matters is that the software itself is far more capable, which is 1:1 room tracking. You can't walk forward and pick a gun up on the wiimote, instead you point to it and THEN do it. The difference is that the software for VR has no directional bias and can work upside down, backwards, right side up, and any fucking way you want it to be. Yeah cool, you know all this stuff about controls. But none of it is worth anything when you can't even see the difference in the result or the software behind it. You spent so much time studying tech behind motion controls but what is the point of it when you can't even tell the difference between the software itself.

[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51188715]I've used the best motion tech on the market. Honestly, anything from the Wiimote Plus onward is gonna be just fine for even serious gaming.[/QUOTE] What? That's just stupid. Wiimotes even with Plus are very basic motion controls where you can sorta point at things if you don't accidentally point too far away from the IR sensors and its motion sensing is pretty far from perfect. VR controllers are in most ways pretty much perfect, they give you 1:1 control with your hands 100% of the time.

Fair enough, the Wiimote doesn't have absolute position tracking, but for most motion applications, absolute tracking isn't really necessariy. However, what you said was entirely the point I was getting at: there is nothing [i]wrong[/i] with them being suped-up Wiimotes.

[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51188743]Fair enough, the Wiimote doesn't have absolute position tracking, but for most motion applications, absolute tracking isn't really necessariy. However, what you said was entirely the point I was getting at: there is nothing [i]wrong[/i] with them being suped-up Wiimotes.[/QUOTE] Not really? You couldn't do the stuff you do in stuff like Tiltbrush or any VR shooter with a Wiimote at all, it just wouldn't work, even remotely. Motion controls without absolute 1:1 positional track ALL the time, they DO NOT work for VR.

oWiimotes in vr hey this isn't so bad oh wait *walks forward* it's locked to a 2d axis onto my headset, its literally a laser pointer wtf *draws a nice wet dick* literally can't draw in 3d *turns around* oh my god it doesn't turn HELP [QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51188743]As you've said, "I've used both of them." I've gone from a Wiimote Plus to a Hydra and back, and the Sixense tech in the Hydra pisses all over the IR tracking VR controllers use. But for most gaming applications, the latter isn't necessary.[/QUOTE] Hydra is pretty limited compared to VR controls today tbh you're pretty much stuck to a desk

[QUOTE=simkas;51188736]What? That's just stupid. Wiimotes even with Plus are very basic motion controls where you can sorta point at things if you don't accidentally point too far away from the IR sensors and its motion sensing is pretty far from perfect. VR controllers are in most ways pretty much perfect, they give you 1:1 control with your hands 100% of the time.[/QUOTE] As you said yourself, "I've used both of them." I've gone from a Wiimote Plus to a Hydra and back, and the Sixense tech in the Hydra pisses all over the IR tracking VR controllers use. But for most gaming applications, the stuff in the Wiimote [Plus] will work just fine. Honestly, the Wiimote's IR sensor is actually capable of more complex IR tracking than what the sensor bar (which is ultimately two flashing LEDs on a stick) puts out. You could easily set up a room-scale reference point system the Wiimote camera can use if you care so much about absolute positioning. [QUOTE=J!NX;51188766]Hydra is pretty limited compared to VR controls today tbh you're pretty much stuck to a desk[/QUOTE] You're right, Hydra is a small-scale application of Sixense tech, even if it's just as accurate. Fortunately, there is a larger version in the form of the STEM, and that [i]obliterates[/i] IR.

[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51188769]As you said yourself, "I've used both of them." I've gone from a Wiimote Plus to a Hydra and back, and the Sixense tech in the Hydra pisses all over the IR tracking VR controllers use. But for most gaming applications, the stuff in the Wiimote will work just fine. Honestly, the Wiimote's IR sensor is actually capable of more complex IR tracking than what the sensor bar (which is ultimately two flashing LEDs on a stick) puts out. You could easily set up a room-scale reference point system the Wiimote camera can use if you care so much about absolute positioning.[/QUOTE] No it will not fucking work fine. Wiimotes would not work for VR AT ALL in any capacity where it would actually be considered actual VR.

And why do you say that?

[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51188785]And why do you say that?[/QUOTE] Because you NEED 1:1 perfect full 3d positional tracking of the controllers 100% of the time, no matter how fast you're moving which the Wiimotes could never ever possibly provide.

Fair enough, though room-scale Wiimote tracking systems [i]have[/i] already been made even, they're not incredibly reliable. That said, that's room-scale. And as I said and was [i]very[/i] careful in my phrasing in saying it: [b]For most gaming applications,[/b] a Wiimote Plus will work just fine. (Admittedly, I forgot the "Plus" the first time I said it. It's true that an original-model Wiimote is completely obsolete nowadays without a MotionPlus addon.)

[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51188804]Fair enough, though room-scale Wiimote tracking systems [i]have[/i] already been made even, they're not incredibly reliable. That said, that's room-scale. And as I said and was [i]very[/i] careful in my phrasing in saying it: [b]For most gaming applications[/b] a Wiimote Plus will work just fine.[/QUOTE] No it fucking wouldn't? I've said it multiple times, Wiimotes for VR DO NOT WORK at all in any capacity. That's not "most applications", that's "no applications whatsoever".

Is all VR room-scale?

[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51188820]Is all VR room-scale?[/QUOTE] No, but all VR requires perfect 3d motion tracking, room-scale or not.

What, so you can spin in your chair or something?

[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51188842]What, so you can spin in your chair or something?[/QUOTE] No? The whole premise of VR motion controls is that the controllers are a virtual representation of your hands, which means they need to be 1:1 perfect in 3d space all of the time.

[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51188769]As you said yourself, "I've used both of them." I've gone from a Wiimote Plus to a Hydra and back, and the Sixense tech in the Hydra pisses all over the IR tracking VR controllers use. But for most gaming applications, the stuff in the Wiimote [Plus] will work just fine. [/QUOTE] are you seriously claiming that a fucking [I]razor hydra[/I] is a better controller than a vive controller or an oculus touch controller? have you ever[I] used [/I]a vive or touch controller???? Not only are they more accurate than a hydra, but they can be tracked throughout an [I]entire room[/I] as opposed to a 4 foot sphere around the base station [editline]11th October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51188820]Is all VR room-scale?[/QUOTE] Any VR that utilizes motion controllers is "room scale", yes.

[QUOTE=simkas;51188850]No? The whole premise of VR motion controls is that the controllers are a virtual representation of your hands, which means they need to be 1:1 perfect in 3d space all of the time.[/QUOTE] What's your opinion of the Move in PSVR, by any chance? [QUOTE=Timebomb575;51188851]are you seriously claiming that a fucking [I]razor hydra[/I] is a better controller than a vive controller or an oculus touch controller? have you ever[I] used [/I]a vive or touch controller???? Not only are they more accurate than a hydra, but they can be tracked throughout an [I]entire room[/I] as opposed to a 4 foot sphere around the base station[/QUOTE] You are aware that Sixense tech exists in a larger-scale form than the Hydra, right? Considering that I [i]just[/i] mentioned it on the previous page?

[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51188866]What's your opinion of the Move in PSVR, by any chance?[/QUOTE] I haven't used them but from what I've seen they seem like a pretty poor example of VR motion controllers.

He claims he knows how all the tech yet even if you tell him the difference between all the tech he doesn't even know how to respond properly and instead goes into a giant stupid-loop its almost as if all of that "I'm right about this" knowledge he has didn't pay off in the end

[QUOTE=simkas;51188870]I haven't used them but from what I've seen they seem like a pretty poor example of VR motion controllers.[/QUOTE] And why do you say that?

[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51188866]You are aware that Sixense tech exists in a larger-scale form than the Hydra, right? Considering that I [i]just[/i] mentioned it on the previous page?[/QUOTE] Does it exist in a way where one could buy it an use it? If it's all just theoretical stuff and prototypes that I don't know how that's relevant.

[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51188653] The [b]Vive[/b] uses much the same tech: a bunch of IR LEDs on the headset and controllers tracked by multiple sensors, whereas the headset has an internal gyroscope and accelerometer. So yes, this is all based on the same tech and all these systems use it in similar if not identical ways. No matter how they dress it up, Vive's "special sensor" is ultimately just the same kind of camera that's in a Wiimote to track the sensor bar, which pretty much just make the VR controllers Wiimotes with the points of reference reversed and the IR tracking system suped-up. So yes, I stand by what I said, no matter how many boxes you guys throw at me. [/QUOTE] what the FUCK this isnt how the Vive works at all Im sorry dude you have no idea what the hell you're talking about

[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51188876]And why do you say that?[/QUOTE] Because they don't seem to be nearly as accurate as either Vive controllers or Oculus Touch. [editline]11th October 2016[/editline] Also yeah Vive does not use IR sensors.

[QUOTE=simkas;51188879]Does it exist in a way where one could buy it an use it? If it's all just theoretical stuff and prototypes that I don't know how that's relevant.[/QUOTE] You're absolutely correct on this. While Oculus and Vive controllers are themselves very young on the market, STEM [i]still[/i] hasn't been released. That said, the technology does exist and STEM's troubles come more from utter incompetence in their release management rather than a failure of the tech. We've [i]seen[/i] the tech work, even at STEM scale. It's not a prototype. But you're totally correct in that there's no consumer version yet, with uncertainty as to whether there ever [i]will[/i] be.

[QUOTE=simkas;51188884]Because they don't seem to be nearly as accurate as either Vive controllers or Oculus Touch. [/QUOTE] they aren't even [I]close[/I] to as accurate people have said that the tracking is so imprecise that it feels like you've suddenly developed parkinson's disease compared to the Vive

[QUOTE=simkas;51188884]Also yeah Vive does not use IR sensors.[/QUOTE] Uh, yeah it does. As a matter of fact, looking further into the tech, it actually uses the [i]exact[/i] setup a Wiimote does rather than the reverse. The base stations are literally just sensor bars. They emit IR light as a reference point, and that's all they do. The HTC help page even mentions that the base stations and other IR sources can interfere with each other. To be fair, there are far more IR sensors on the Vive and controllers than the single camera in the Wiimote, but the principle is exactly the same. I will admit, I thought Vive worked like the Oculus in that the stations were IR cameras and that those indented points on the headset/controllers were LEDs. While that is indeed true for Oculus, for Vive it's the other way around. All those points are basically a bunch of Wiimote cameras looking for the IR lights on the base stations.

[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51188324]Have you used a Wiimote with MotionPlus, via either the attachment or an upgraded Wiimote Plus? Do you know what the MotionPlus adds to the Wiimote's original tracking tech, or what said original tracking tech even is? Have you used Sixense stuff, by any chance? Do you know the technology behind that? Do you know exactly [i]how[/i] the Vive and Oculus track their controllers? Or how the Kinect and such track depth? Because I know all of that. I study this stuff. I have an interest in the tech behind motion controls, whereas I imagine most other people only have a passing knowledge in it, especially as far as the first-gen tech from the early Wii days is concerned. I actually know how [i]all[/i] these systems work. I want to know what you guys know, because you're probably wrong about a good deal of it and I can tell you what that is.[/QUOTE] No matter how much you posture and position yourself as an expert in Wii technology, it's immediately obvious to anyone that has used a Vive (or Touch, I imagine) that you don't know what you're talking about. Just because you read the Wikipedia article on how Wii's IR tracking works doesn't mean you have the slightest authority to comment on why current generation sub-millimeter tracking is doomed to fail. Quit acting so pompous and get over yourself, you sound ridiculous. [editline]11th October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51188950]I will admit, I thought Vive worked like the Oculus in that the stations were IR cameras and that those indented points on the headset/controllers were LEDs. While that is indeed true for Oculus, for Vive it's the other way around. All those points are basically a bunch of Wiimote cameras looking for the IR lights on the base stations.[/QUOTE] So you admit that you went on a big rant about what an expert you are without even understanding the basic function of the Vive's tracking system, and you're only [I]just now[/I] learning about it because people are telling you how far off you are? Just stop talking.

[QUOTE=srobins;51188975]No matter how much you posture and position yourself as an expert in Wii technology, it's immediately obvious to anyone that has used a Vive (or Touch, I imagine) that you don't know what you're talking about. Just because you read the Wikipedia article on how Wii's IR tracking works doesn't mean you have the slightest authority to comment on why current generation sub-millimeter tracking is doomed to fail. Quit acting so pompous and get over yourself, you sound ridiculous.[/QUOTE] I never said once it was doomed to fail. Quite the opposite, and honestly, we've gotten way off topic. My original point was this: [QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51188237]VR in terms of the headset was never going to be any more than an expensive novelty - an [i]actual[/i] gimmick. The "new way to interact with virtual worlds" comes from the more advanced form of motion controls, which have always had potential even back when people were decrying them as "waggle". The Oculus Touch/Vive controller are basically suped-up Wiimotes and stuff like the [Oculus] camera is a less functional Kinect. But hey, at least now people are taking motion controls seriously.[/QUOTE] This is good. It's [i]good[/i] that we're advancing motion tech. It's good that it's getting better and better. The only reason the argument started was someone going, "Nuh-uh! VR controllers are nothing [i]like[/i] just being suped-up Wiimotes!" when no, that's [i]exactly what they are.[/i] [QUOTE=srobins;51188975]So you admit that you went on a big rant about what an expert you are without even understanding the basic function of the Vive's tracking system, and you're only [I]just now[/I] learning about it because people are telling you how far off you are? Just stop talking.[/QUOTE] Do [i]you[/i] even know what you're talking about or did you see "Okay, I made a mistake about that part" as a chance to scream "YOU WERE UTTERLY WRONG ON A [b]FUNDAMENTAL LEVEL[/b]!" No, you goof. Yes, I had assumed that the Vive IR system worked [i]exactly[/i] like the Oculus IR system and named that as the example by putting "Vive camera" instead of "Oculus camera", when in fact in the Vive the IR goes in the [i]other[/i] direction. Okay, I made a mistake, and a fairly friggin' inconsequential one. It doesn't invalidate anything else I said.

[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51188804][b]For most gaming applications,[/b] a Wiimote Plus will work just fine.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51188820]Is all VR room-scale?[/QUOTE] "Ok fine they are lacking several features but that doesn't matter when you disregard anything that requires those exact several features"