[QUOTE=Sherow_Xx;51189025]"Ok fine they are lacking several features but that doesn't matter when you disregard anything that requires those exact several features"[/QUOTE]
Oh, please. Room-scale VR is a niche application. As stated in the video, most people can't even take advantage of it, because even when the tech becomes more affordable people still won't have the space.
The room-scale stuff is always going to be relegated to either lab use or amusement park attractions outside of the handful of enthusiasts who have the space for it. It's never going to become "most applications".
I really refuse to listen to jim on this one because its pretty obvious that he has a lot of biased hate towards it because it just doesn't mix well for him
[editline]11th October 2016[/editline]
like, I don't think he wanted to use them, but used them because he felt he had to say something. He came in not really feeling up for it.
[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51189042]Oh, please. Room-scale VR is a niche application. As stated in the video, most people can't even take advantage of it, because even when the tech becomes more affordable people still won't have the space.
The room-scale stuff is always going to be relegated to either lab use or amusement park attractions outside of the handful of enthusiasts who have the space for it. It's never going to become "most applications".[/QUOTE]
It's not niche application, it's ALL of VR. If by room-scale you mean just that kind of full positional tracking where you move your head and your hands with controllers all around a 3d space and have them tracked, that's ALL of VR.
[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51189042]Oh, please. Room-scale VR is a niche application. As stated in the video, most people can't even take advantage of it, because even when the tech becomes more affordable people still won't have the space.[/QUOTE]
You are making the claim that the Wiimotes and Vive are technically equal, based on the fact that "most people" aren't able to take advantage of the fact that they aren't technically equal.
[QUOTE]The room-scale stuff is always going to be relegated to either lab use or amusement park attractions outside of the handful of enthusiasts who have the space for it. It's never going to become "most applications".[/QUOTE]
I think you're exaggerating a bit there. In any case, the availability and usefulness of these differences do not invalidate the differences. It may be the case that "in principle" they are the same technologies because they use IR and sensors, but the fact that the Vive has [I]many[/I] sensors and [I]two[/I] IR emitters makes a [I]huge difference[/I] and is what allows 1:1 positional tracking. You can argue that it's in essence the same, but that detail makes a world of difference that is essential to VR.
By room-scale I mean the kind where you literally walk around a big empty room with the headset on.
[editline]11th October 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Sherow_Xx;51189069]You are making the claim that the Wiimotes and Vive are technically equal, based on the fact that "most people" aren't able to take advantage of the fact that they aren't technically equal.
I think you're exaggerating a bit there. In any case, the availability and usefulness of these differences do not invalidate the differences. It may be the case that "in principle" they are the same technologies because they use IR and sensors, but the fact that the Vive has [I]many[/I] sensors and [I]two[/I] IR emitters makes a [I]huge difference[/I] and is what allows 1:1 positional tracking. You can argue that it's in essence the same, but that detail makes a world of difference that is essential to VR.[/QUOTE]
My original argument was that people were so quick to rag on motion controls when as soon as ones with better tech come around people go gaga over them solely because they're under the "VR" label, which means they can focus on the headset with all its "IMMERSION" and don't have to admit they're using motion controls, when in fact the motion controls are still the important part and that headset is just a shiny novelty. You're right, VR controllers are more advanced than the Wiimote on a technical level, even if I personally believe the Wiimote [b]Plus[/b] still has life in it.
My only goal in pointing out the similarities is when the first reply to me said:
[QUOTE=simkas;51188277]outright wrong. The VR motion controllers are pretty fucking far from being "just" better Wiimotes, Wiimote mostly just relied on tracking its position using an IR sensor and detecting some very primitive gestures[/QUOTE]
When... no, VR motion controllers are entirely [i]based[/i] around the use of IR sensors, in a way that literally makes them [i]better Wiimotes.[/i]
[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51189070]My original argument was that people were so quick to rag on motion controls when as soon as ones with better tech come around under the label "VR" people go gaga over them, when in fact they're just still motion controls.[/QUOTE]
Yes but original motion controls were bad and VR motion controls are good. I don't see the problem?
[QUOTE]When... no, VR motion controllers are entirely [i]based[/i] around the use of IR sensors, in a way that makes them [i]better Wiimotes.[/i][/QUOTE]
But he's still right about that though? VR motion controllers [I]are[/I] 'pretty fucking far from being "just" better Wiimotes', even if they do work on the same basic principles. The multiple sensors and emitters changes everything. I think you're being pedantic about semantics.
I just find it funny that people have to quantify it as [b]VR[/b] motion controls, as if pairing them with that lame headset somehow makes them "gamer safe".
No, guys, they're just motion controls. It's okay, you won't get waggle cooties by admitting you like motion controls now. I'm just glad other people are finally getting interested in them after a friggin' decade of trying to convince everyone.
[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51189168]I just find it funny that people have to quantify it as [b]VR[/b] motion controls, as if pairing them with that lame headset somehow makes them "gamer safe".
No, guys, they're just motion controls. It's okay, you won't get waggle cooties by admitting you like motion controls now. I'm just glad other people are finally getting interested in them after a friggin' decade of trying to convince everyone.[/QUOTE]
What the fuck are you even saying? We have to quantify them as VR motion controls because they are VR motion controls, if you don't specify then you're talking about Wiimote or something like that, there aren't really any good motion controls out that aren't made specifically for VR.
[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51189168]I just find it funny that people have to quantify it as [b]VR[/b] motion controls, as if pairing them with that lame headset somehow makes them "gamer safe".
No, guys, they're just motion controls. It's okay, you won't get waggle cooties by admitting you like motion controls now. I'm just glad other people are finally getting interested in them after a friggin' decade of trying to convince everyone.[/QUOTE]
I feel like I'm listening to the ramblings of an insane person tbh
will vin become the next mad legend of facepunch? Much like Yawmwen the great?
[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51189168]I'm just glad other people are finally getting interested in them after a friggin' decade of trying to convince everyone.[/QUOTE]
Honestly, that doesn't sound true. It sounds to me like you were one of few people who totally embraced motion controls and were saddened when it got a bad reputation over time. And now that people are coming back to it, you seem strangely offended that we're not apologizing to motion controls and hailing it as motion controls. We are not trying to distance ourselves from motion controls, this isn't at all what you are implying, the reason we are using terms to differentiate is because [I]there is a difference[/I].
[QUOTE=Sherow_Xx;51189193]Honestly, that doesn't sound true. It sounds to me like you were one of few people who totally embraced motion controls and were saddened when it got a bad reputation over time. And now that people are coming back to it, you seem strangely offended that we're not apologizing to motion controls and hailing it as motion controls. We are not trying to distance ourselves from motion controls, this isn't at all what you are implying, the reason we are using terms to differentiate is because [I]there is a difference[/I].[/QUOTE]
Well, yeah, that's true in a sense. Even as recently as a week ago an in-game comment of "Man, I wish I could play PlanetSide 2 with my Hydra" was met with bewildered cries of "Motion controls over a [i]mouse?![/i]" I've been on this train for ages and I've always wanted to see a wider adoption but no one took it seriously, even when as far back as 2007 a motion shooter like Corruption was [i]damn[/i] good.
'Cuz honestly, you don't need that stupid headset to have good motion controls.
I've been anti motion controls outside of the wiimote since forever. Wiimote had the right idea but was nothing more than pointing and gestures sadly.
motion controls without VR isn't as fun
VR without motion controls isn't as fun
VR and motion controls are fucking great though
[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51189212]Well, yeah, that's true in a sense. Even as recently as a week ago an in-game comment of "Man, I wish I could play PlanetSide 2 with my Hydra" was met with bewildered cries of "Motion controls over a [i]mouse?![/i]" I've been on this train since playing Corruption and I've always wanted to see a wider adoption.
And honestly, you don't need that stupid headset to have good motion controls.[/QUOTE]
What stupid headset? You mean VR headsets? There's nothing stupid about any of the VR headsets.
[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51188842]What, so you can spin in your chair or something?[/QUOTE]
so you've made sweeping judgements and generalizations all fucking thread
and you don't even understand the basic elements of how VR works from a players perspective
Do you know how hard it is to take you seriously when you go into tirades, and angry rants and condescending dismissals based on knowledge I already had(that whole list was basically common knowledge for me) without even a basic understanding of the shit you're railing against?
VR works by giving the player a 1-1 movement scale, room scale or not, hands, head, and other motion should feel relatively 1-1 or based on the movement of a cockpit or a foreground object around you to help remove the burden of the inner ear-visual cortex mismatch. A wiimote uses the same basic concepts in it's motion tracking. It's overall for a different purpose all together and doesn't really represent the same thing and doesn't end up making a worthwhile comparison.
[QUOTE=J!NX;51189219]I've been anti motion controls outside of the wiimote since forever. Wiimote had the right idea but was nothing more than pointing and gestures sadly.
motion controls without VR isn't as fun
VR without motion controls isn't as fun
VR and motion controls are fucking great though[/QUOTE]
I still disagree and say that Sixense tech is the way to go, but I'm just worried that the STEM will never friggin' get released at this point. Partly because my Hydra broke. Cheap-ass Razer materials...
[QUOTE=simkas;51189226]What stupid headset? You mean VR headsets? There's nothing stupid about any of the VR headsets.[/QUOTE]
I'm with Jim on this one.
[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51189236]I still disagree and say that Sixense tech is the way to go, but I'm just worried that the STEM will never friggin' get released at this point. Partly because my Hydra broke. Cheap-ass Razer materials...[/QUOTE]
Disagree with what? He didn't say anything about what type of motion controls are better. And besides, the current way of motion controls that the Vive and Touch use work perfectly fine so unless the Sixsense thing is somehow cheaper or whatever I don't see it changing to that.
[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51189236]I still disagree and say that Sixense tech is the way to go, but I'm just worried that the STEM will never friggin' get released at this point. Partly because my Hydra broke. Cheap-ass Razer materials...
Yeah, I'm with Jim on this one.[/QUOTE]
Having used one, but not purchased one, I really don't think they're that stupid.
AR seems far stupider, far more intesnive, and far less immersive. The issue with VR is it's still young, adoption is hard, and it needs to get into a positive feedback loop with new games driving new sales driving new games and etc, but it's a good concept over all. Wave shooters are boring after you play a few, but there's concepts and ideas that I can see adding a whole new layer to gaming in it's own right. It won't replace gaming on a console or PC or whatever, but it will supplement it with seriously interesting experiences that can't exist in a non VR environment.
Disagree that "motion controls without the headset isn't fun". I could care less about the headset.
But Vive and Touch require line-of-sight to their bases. And they can only maintain that line-of-sight by having multiple bases set up all over. Anything that needs line-of-sight is inherently unreliable. Sixense tech doesn't need line-of-sight.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51189272]it needs to get into a positive feedback loop with new games driving new sales driving new games and etc,[/QUOTE]
I have my doubts as to whether this will ever happen.
[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51189278]
But Vive and Touch require line-of-sight to their bases. And they can only maintain that line-of-sight by having multiple bases set up all over. Anything that needs line-of-sight is gonna have problems. Sixense tech doesn't need line-of-sight.[/QUOTE]
how is line of sight going to be an issue. For someone who "Knows all there is about motion tech" you sure know jack shit.
I had line of sight issues up until I set my lighthouses PROPERLY. I could go to the corner of my room and use it just fine. Unless your intentionally trying to lose LoS you really can't.
If you ACTUALLY USED a properly set up vive maybe you'd actually know what you were talking about.
[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51189278]Disagree that "motion controls without the headset isn't fun". I could care less about the headset.
But Vive and Touch require line-of-sight to their bases. And they can only maintain that line-of-sight by having multiple bases set up all over. Anything that needs line-of-sight is gonna have problems. Sixense tech doesn't need line-of-sight.[/QUOTE]
Two lighthouse boxes provide way more than enough coverage.
[QUOTE=J!NX;51189288]how is line of sight going to be an issue. For someone who "Knows all there is about motion tech" you sure know jack shit.
I had line of sight issues up until I set my lighthouses PROPERLY. I could go to the corner of my room and use it just fine. Unless your intentionally trying to lose LoS you really can't.
If you ACTUALLY USED a properly set up vive maybe you'd actually know what you were talking about.[/QUOTE]
"Properly set up" is the key word, especially when you're trying for market adoption. Think of why Kinect failed.
[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51189305]"Properly set up" is the key word, especially when you're trying for market adoption. Think of why Kinect failed.[/QUOTE]
if you can't manage to set a vive up then there is honestly no way you could even have purchased a computer to boot
like you'd have to be a giant idiot not to manage it.
[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51189305]"Properly set up" is the key word, especially when you're trying for market adoption. Think of why Kinect failed.[/QUOTE]
Occulous's new model uses front mounted tracking cameras to understand it's world, so hopefully it doesn't have that issue
The lighthouses for the Vive are basically set up at two opposing corners of a 3-5x3-5m space. It's easy to see how people could fuck that up but it's also a thing meant for prosumers and niche gamers that'll widen adoption as time goes on so who knows.
[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51189305]"Properly set up" is the key word, especially when you're trying for market adoption. Think of why Kinect failed.[/QUOTE]
"Properly set up" means taking as much time and effort as it does to hook up and place down a TV. Also the setup was the absolute least of the reasons why Kinect failed.
[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51189212]Well, yeah, that's true in a sense. Even as recently as a week ago an in-game comment of "Man, I wish I could play PlanetSide 2 with my Hydra" was met with bewildered cries of "Motion controls over a [i]mouse?![/i]" I've been on this train for ages and I've always wanted to see a wider adoption but no one took it seriously, even when as far back as 2007 a motion shooter like Corruption was [i]damn[/i] good.
'Cuz honestly, you don't need that stupid headset to have good motion controls.[/QUOTE]
This makes your reaction here make a lot of sense to me, honestly. But I feel you are reacting in a childish way. There is nothing wrong with you having embraced motion controls long before anyone else did. Motion controls as a concept is a really exciting concept, but most people couldn't handle the flaws and imprecision, and that drove it to being ridiculed by a large number of people. There may still be a general bias toward motion controls, but as you can see it is being broken down by the increasing quality of motion controls. This should be an entirely good thing to you, but instead you are reacting as if people now embracing it are invaders of what has become your personal bastion, and that they need to embrace it on your terms and apologize for ridiculing old motion controls.
[QUOTE]I'm with Jim on this one.[/QUOTE]
As I said earlier, I'm not entirely certain about VR's future even though I own a Vive, but I think these future motion controls will be permanently mostly associated with VR. There's simply too many flaws associated with the precision of motion controls to use on a screen. I actually had the exact same mental response to your Planetside comment. That sounds extremely bad to me since precision is just not possible compared to using a mouse - and in examples like that, the reason isn't even the technical limitations, it's the fact that you are holding an object in the air with your hand, which will never give you as precise aim as a resting hand on a mouse you control with fingers and wrist movements. Pointing and clicking on a virtual desktop in VR is extremely difficult, not because the tracking is off, but because hands shake.
[QUOTE=Sherow_Xx;51189334]I actually had the exact same mental response to your Planetside comment. That sounds extremely bad to me since precision is just not possible compared to using a mouse - and in examples like that, the reason isn't even the technical limitations, it's the fact that you are holding an object in the air with your hand, which will never give you as precise aim as a resting hand on a mouse you control with fingers and wrist movements. Pointing and clicking on a virtual desktop in VR is extremely difficult, not because the tracking is off, but because hands shake.[/QUOTE]
I disagree. TF2 was one of two Source games that had full Sixense implementation in the form of total free-aim (the other being Portal 2, which wasn't nearly as customizable.) Back before my Hydra broke, I did far better in TF2 with it than I ever did with a mouse beforehand or since.
I can't aim well with a mouse. That hasn't changed since the seven years I've been on Steam, and I've racked up thousands of hours across various shooters in that time. But motion controls in shooters are second-nature to me.
[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51189414]I disagree. TF2 was one of two Source games that had full Sixense implementation in the form of total free-aim (the other being Portal 2, which wasn't nearly as customizable.) Back before my Hydra broke, I did far better in TF2 with it than I ever did with a mouse beforehand or since.
I can't aim well with a mouse. That hasn't changed since the seven years I've been on Steam, and I've racked up thousands of hours across various shooters in that time. But motion controls in shooters are second-nature to me.[/QUOTE]
You're one of the few then.
I own a hydra, I've used it for about 15-20 hours. It's not great for it's motion aiming in most games I've tried it with.
My steam controllers gyro setting is pretty great for aiming with but that's in conjunction with the touch pad.
Bear in mind, only TF2 and Portal 2 have true implementation for Sixense as far as I'm aware.
Most other games have to be configured through Sixense MotionCreator or Razer's version of the same. What those offer isn't true motion-aim, it's mouse-aim controlled by the motion controller.
[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;51189414]I disagree. TF2 was one of two Source games that had full Sixense implementation in the form of total free-aim (the other being Portal 2, which wasn't nearly as customizable.) Back before my Hydra broke, I did far better in TF2 with it than I ever did with a mouse beforehand or since.
I can't aim well with a mouse. That hasn't changed since the seven years I've been on Steam, and I've racked up thousands of hours across various shooters in that time. But motion controls in shooters are second-nature to me.[/QUOTE]
That's neat, but also absolutely unusual. You must understand that the vast majority of people are better with a mouse, and I'll almost say that precision is objectively better with a mouse, and that if you practiced, you would almost certainly have better aim with a mouse. It's sorta the same as with people who are comfortable aiming with analog sticks when console gaming - even if they've gotten super good at it, they still get mauled by average mouse users if you manage to let them play against each other. Although I don't doubt that you can be a lot better with motion controls than with an analog stick.
[QUOTE=Sherow_Xx;51189462]that if you practiced, you would almost certainly have better aim with a mouse. It's sorta the same as with people who are comfortable aiming with analog sticks when console gaming - even if they've gotten super good at it, they still get mauled by average mouse users if you manage to let them play against each other.[/QUOTE]
I disagree on account of the one thing motion controls can do that a mouse or analog stick can't.
[t]http://i.imgur.com/gdqf70A.jpg[/t]
See if you can see what that is.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
