Pat Condell - "Bad Faith at Ground Zero" - General

If they want to build a mosque, they will build one for no one has the right the deny them that. With that said, I am still against their reasoning of building the 'community center', not only because it's a matter of bad taste in terms of place and time, but also because it shows a lacking display of sensibility, for the Muslim extremists threw themselves at ground zero in the name of Islam. He does make sense in one his his points, that the building of the mosque is more a display of dominance than of religious tolerance, but in terms of rights, they shouldn't be denied.

[QUOTE=johan_sm;24500120]No, he's a smart man and is right. Islam is demanding too much. I said it once and I will say it again, try building a church in the east. You will be lynched or stoned in no time.[/QUOTE] This has nothing to do with the East. It's not Islam demanding this community center, it is AMERICANS. You aren't denying Islam a mosque, you are denying AMERICANS a place of worship.

[QUOTE=Plastical;24501549]If they want to build a mosque, they will build one for no one has the right the deny them that.[/QUOTE] Our rights of free speech and expression are not absolute. In Miller v. California, 1979 I believe, the Court ruled that there are boundaries to obscenity. Schenk v. US was much the same, and the Court ruled that free speech and expression can be limited if it puts lives in danger and/or threatens others free speech. [QUOTE=Lachz0r;24501800]This has nothing to do with the East. It's not Islam demanding this community center, it is AMERICANS. You aren't denying Islam a mosque, you are denying AMERICANS a place of worship.[/QUOTE] I think there is a mosque that is already 5 or 6 blocks away from Ground Zero anyway. There are a lot of mosques already in NYC to begin with.

[QUOTE=Hostel;24500894]Unfortunately, it isn't New York Muslims directing the development of this building. The developer is man who supports Sharia Law and would love to see a double standard justice system appear in New York any day. By the way, I have been reading the Quran (english translation, which is claimed not to be as accurate, but the same could go for the Holy Bible) and by the looks of it, these "New York Muslims" are just cherry picking what they like and don't like out of their religion.[/QUOTE] Cherry picking, you mean just like every single fucking non-radical Christian in the world? Yet we still let them build churhces everywhere. Because it is their right. Fuck Pat Condell and fuck all bigots trying to take away peoples freedoms.

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;24501830]Cherry picking, you mean just like every single fucking non-radical Christian in the world? Yet we still let them build churhces everywhere. Because it is their right. Fuck Pat Condell and fuck all bigots trying to take away peoples freedoms.[/QUOTE] Play the video again at 0:25, "there is a difference between practicing your religion, which everyone has a right to do". Just because people are opposing this community center, doesn't mean we are trying to take way people's freedoms. They can build a mosque further away and be able to practice their religion which almost everyone here is fine with, but it defeats the purpose of building it, which is building it near ground zero. This is an isolated situation, the controversy would not be around if it was elsewhere.

The bad side of Pat Condell. I still like him.

[QUOTE=Hostel;24502041]Play the video again at 0:25, "there is a difference between practicing your religion, which everyone has a right to do". Just because people are opposing this community center, doesn't mean we are trying to take way people's freedoms. They can build a mosque further away and be able to practice their religion which almost everyone here is fine with, but it defeats the purpose of buildings it, which is building it near ground zero. This is an isolated situation, the controversy would not be around if it was elsewhere.[/QUOTE] they have the freedom to build it wherever the fuck they want haters gonna hate

[QUOTE=johan_sm;24500120]No, he's a smart man and is right. Islam is demanding too much. I said it once and I will say it again, try building a church in the east. You will be lynched or stoned in no time.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Hostel;24500223]I feel like that is more of the issue. I'm not religious, but you would never be able to build a Church of Christ in Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia, they would not tolerate it. Something tells me that we should not tolerate the intolerant in this particular situation.[/QUOTE] You guys are trying to claim the moral high ground above muslims and then saying we should all use their standards in this situation? Haha.

[QUOTE=johan_sm;24500120]No, he's a smart man and is right. Islam is demanding too much. I said it once and I will say it again, try building a church in the east. You will be lynched or stoned in no time.[/QUOTE] Let's be the adult and let them build the fucking thing [editline]04:43PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Hostel;24501823]I think there is a mosque that is already 5 or 6 blocks away from Ground Zero anyway. There are a lot of mosques already in NYC to begin with.[/QUOTE] You realize the land which the center will go on was really cheap right? [editline]04:44PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Plastical;24501549]If they want to build a mosque, they will build one for no one has the right the deny them that. With that said, I am still against their reasoning of building the 'community center', not only because it's a matter of bad taste in terms of place and time, but also because it shows a lacking display of sensibility, for the Muslim extremists threw themselves at ground zero in the name of Islam. He does make sense in one his his points, that the building of the mosque is more a display of dominance than of religious tolerance, but in terms of rights, they shouldn't be denied.[/QUOTE] The community center has nothing to do with what happened on 9/11

[QUOTE=creefer;24502346]You guys are trying to claim the moral high ground above muslims and then saying we should all use their standards in this situation? Haha.[/QUOTE] Atheist follow many of the ten commandments but you don't see anyone saying that they are following Christian values. I guess the above would not make a valid point since I made a direct comparison. I honestly do not know how to explain this so you are perhaps right. Thank you for mentioning it.

[QUOTE=Hostel;24502803]Atheist follow many of the ten commandments but you don't see anyone saying that they are following Christian values. I guess the above would not make a valid point since I made a direct comparison. I honestly do not know how to explain this so you are perhaps right. Thank you for mentioning it.[/QUOTE] christians didn't invent the ideas behind the ten commandments

[QUOTE=plazzydan;24503666]christians didn't invent the ideas behind the ten commandments[/QUOTE] I'm not sure when I said the Christians did invent the ten commandments.

I like Pat Condell but I really can't agree with him here.

[QUOTE=Hostel;24502803]Atheist follow many of the ten commandments but you don't see anyone saying that they are following Christian values. I guess the above would not make a valid point since I made a direct comparison. I honestly do not know how to explain this so you are perhaps right. Thank you for mentioning it.[/QUOTE] Yeah, I mean, there's a disconnect between those things. I'm an atheist and I don't kill people, but that's because I wouldn't want to be killed, and I don't think anyone else would. The same goes for some other commandments. With this mosque situation, you're right; we wouldn't be allowed to build a church or synagogue in Saudi Arabia, for example. But that's because they're strict and intolerant of other belief systems. Muslims should be allowed to build mosques in the west because [I]everyone[/I] is allowed religious freedom here (as long as they act within the law obviously, [I]which is the most important thing and makes this whole argument stupid[/I]). If a large group of people successfully stop a mosque from being built, then people should have every right to stop churches from being built. They can't have it both ways. Also, people seem to forget that you have to look for a reason to hate/ban something before you actually do. If the people who run this center start shit then by all means shut it down, and that applies to any organization. But as of yet there's no reason it's a bad thing. Not all muslims are crazy. I have plenty of muslim friends and they're very 'normal'.

[QUOTE=Hostel;24502041]Play the video again at 0:25, "there is a difference between practicing your religion, which everyone has a right to do". Just because people are opposing this community center, doesn't mean we are trying to take way people's freedoms. They can build a mosque further away and be able to practice their religion which almost everyone here is fine with, but it defeats the purpose of building it, which is building it near ground zero. This is an isolated situation, the controversy would not be around if it was elsewhere.[/QUOTE] Okay so ill sum this statement simply "we are not trying to stop them from bulding it, they can build it down a few more blocks" Okay 1, its 6 blocks for ground zero, Manhattan is the center of new york, hence why the twin towers where in the middle. there's churches every few blocks in some places in new york and mainly in this area. Two your saying were not stopping them YET you still want them to build it somewhere els, in this case you want a few more blocks.. if your asking for that and making them do that THEN YES you are stopping them from building their mosque/community center were they want it. That sir is called a contradiction, and its something you do ALOT now your claiming this isn't about 9/11 its about revoking "intolerant" people their right to build this mosque near Ground Zero. well one if this wasn't about 9/11 then there shouldn't be a problem just here then. But ill get back to that later. Now you seem to think or imply Muslims and people from the east are intolerant. now lets humor you for a second.. so your being intolerant to intolerant people, cause you don't like their intolerance Your being a hypocrite sir. and thats what is simply is intolerance. Now they're also Americans or a majority of the people who will attend the community center will be Americans. So your revoking AMERICANS rights to worship cause you don't like the intolrance in the middle east so in return your acting intolerant. Do i sound like a fucking broken record here? cause every time I repeat it, it reminds me how ignorant you are. Hell im friends with a Muslim, the kids fucking nice, he isn't sexist, he isn't anti-womens rights, he isn't anti-American, hell the kid isn't anti-anything. I mean why the fuck do you think some people move to America from the middle east? to escape the radical laws implanted in their home country, so they come to america, to become americans, but they want to keep their religion, so they "cherry pick it" as you so call it. Stop listening to glen beck kid, and stop listening to a guy in Britain who sounds smart. just cause he looks smart and sounds it Doesn't FUCKING MEAN HE IS ON EVERY ISSUE

Don't speak for me, because that is what you are doing when you sum up another's statement. The location of where the community center is built is an exception, not a contradiction. You persist in calling me a hypocrite for two reasons which I have already corrected myself for, but I guess you would not like to mention what I had to say to you through PM. Your accusation that I think Muslims in the middle east are intolerant is your presumptuousness. Building a Church of Christ in Saudi Arabia would be revoked by their government, not by their people. I shouldn't even have to explain myself of this, I already agreed with another user here that I was acting upon a higher moral ground, but following the same standards that would use to determine if the community center should be built or not. It's the traditional Muslims who support Sharia Law and Taqiyya that bother me. That opinion has not changed throughout this thread. I've grown up with my own share of cultural diversity. I have two Muslims friends, both of who were the reason that sparked my interest in reading the Quran. I have distinguished the differences of most Muslims. You're ruining your credibility with horrible grammar, I don't expect someone to talk with a large diction, but come on, I want to see some capitalization. I am American, and I'm certainly not Glenn Beck kid. I feel like you're undermining my opinion and putting your own spin on it. I have invested far more time researching this topic than you have, and you have the nerve to call me a bigot.

this sums up my reply to hostel, im tired of reasoning with his glenn beck like logic. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feB7Oc8rw1o[/media] /thread [editline]02:48AM[/editline] [QUOTE=Hostel;24506098] and you have the nerve to call be a bigot.[/QUOTE] if your going to call me out on my grammar LEARN THE DIFFERENCE FROM BE AND ME

[QUOTE=ScoutKing;24500323]Even if you disagree with it morally, dosn't mean its wrong. They have the right, remember RIGHTS>MORALS. so no matter how much you hate, how much you cry, it is legally okay for them to build there, stopping them because of their religion is being discriminative, even if you don't like the religion it is STILL discriminative.[/QUOTE] I think one major key that drives Americans mad is victim sensitivity. The last thing the families of those that were killed on 9/11 would want to see is a worship center for the followers of Jihad that made those terrorists kill thousands of people. If a mosque must be built, it should at least be moved several blocks away for the sake of preserving the memories of the mass murder. I am only against the mosque building for the sake of victim sensitivity, those who do solely on racism are ignorant and wrong.

[QUOTE=Run&Gun12;24506648]I think one major key that drives Americans mad is victim sensitivity. The last thing the families of those that were killed on 9/11 would want to see is a worship center for the followers of Jihad that made those terrorists kill thousands of people. If a mosque must be built, it should at least be moved several blocks away for the sake of preserving the memories of the mass murder. I am only against the mosque building for the sake of victim sensitivity, those who do solely on racism are ignorant and wrong.[/QUOTE] we can't let some peoples sensitivity and feels decline other peoples rights.

Boy it must suck walking that politically correct tightrope where no matter which side you fall from, you're fucked. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I see my good man Pat Condell has no such issues :smugdog: Political correctness can go fuck itself, because its not calling out bigotry, its looking like you are so you can go to bed feeling good about yourself because you defended some stupid cause or group or another that no one really gives two shits about. All those fucks in government around the world would flip their shit and scream all sorts of horse shit about intolerance and being insensitive if some group bombed the Mecca in the name of Christianity and than a group wanted to build a church within 50 miles of the city. (Not that I would CARE if a church got built, I'm merely making a point here. Fact of the matter is if this truly wasn't a political issue for Islam to wedge its goat fucking ass into, they would be more than agreeable to find help relocating to another part of the city rather than insisting on an area that is blocks away from Ground Zero. Feel free to practice your religion, but don't do it at the expense of the memories other people have of their friends and family who died on 9/11. Many of the people reading this are probably off looking for a a stick to shove up their collective asses because they are those people who I talked about who don't actually give two fucks about being understanding, they just want to look good and act like they understand present issues better than the average person on the street when in reality they are just like everyone else, they listen to what their favorite Shepard has to say and are more than happy to play follow the leader. You aren't better than those bible thumping tools who attend church twice a week and listen to Rush religiously. You are just as bad in your own right, and quite frankly I'm sick of all these people that try to handle these issues "Sensitively" when it shouldn't even be a question as to the course of action.

[QUOTE=ScoutKing;24506673]we can't let some peoples sensitivity and feels decline other peoples rights.[/QUOTE] I'm not saying we should violate their freedom of religion, if they want a mosque, why can't they build it somewhere else(and I realize that the construction of it is almost inevitable)? Honestly it shocked me that our leaders would rollover that quickly over the subject, I at least imagined [I]some[/I] sort of opposition from [I]some[/I] of them, but they're taking the phrase "diplomatic approach" a little too far. There are going to be a lot of angry people when this plan comes through, though...

[QUOTE=Run&Gun12;24507106]I'm not saying we should violate their freedom of religion, if they want a mosque, why can't they build it somewhere else(and I realize that the construction of it is almost inevitable)? Honestly it shocked me that our leaders would rollover that quickly over the subject, I at least imagined [I]some[/I] sort of opposition from [I]some[/I] of them, but they're taking the phrase "diplomatic approach" a little too far. There are going to be a lot of angry people when this plan comes through, though...[/QUOTE] look at it from their point of view, WHY should they roll over for your feelings? they have the right to build it, thats the reason we have to roll over. but to be fair no one has to roll over if people grew a brain because 9/11 dosn't represent all Muslims it represents the actions of radicals.

[QUOTE=ScoutKing;24507237]look at it from their point of view, WHY should they roll over for your feelings? they have the right to build it, thats the reason we have to roll over. but to be fair no one has to roll over if people grew a brain because 9/11 dosn't represent all Muslims it represents the actions of radicals.[/QUOTE] Seeing how over 3,000 innocents were mass-murdered all on the same day, it would be incredibly arrogant if Muslims went in with an attitude of "why should we care about your feelings". I know that the attack on 9/11 doesn't represent all Muslims, and that this was a case from their extremists, but that attack is now permanently painted on the face of their religion, and people around the world have taken a general disdain for them. Of course their building of the mosque is going to make tempers flare, but you have to agree that over that past ten years it does sound a little curious as to why they intend on building it there. I hope you don't think I'M bashing Muslims, because I'm not, I happen to live next to a Muslim family, and we get along just fine.

[QUOTE=Run&Gun12;24507582]Seeing how over 3,000 innocents were mass-murdered all on the same day, it would be incredibly arrogant if Muslims went in with an attitude of "why should we care about your feelings". I know that the attack on 9/11 doesn't represent all Muslims, and that this was a case from their extremists, but that attack is now permanently painted on the face of their religion, and people around the world have taken a general disdain for them. Of course their building of the mosque is going to make tempers flare, but you have to agree that over that past ten years it does sound a little curious as to why they intend on building it there. I hope you don't think I'M bashing Muslims, because I'm not, I happen to live next to a Muslim family, and we get along just fine.[/QUOTE] The community centre isn't representative of the extremists that did 9/11, so we shouldn't pander to the idiots who think it is. Honestly this argument against the mosque is so fucking hypocritical it hurts my head

[QUOTE=Run&Gun12;24507582]Seeing how over 3,000 innocents were mass-murdered all on the same day, it would be incredibly arrogant if Muslims went in with an attitude of "why should we care about your feelings". I know that the attack on 9/11 doesn't represent all Muslims, and that this was a case from their extremists, but that attack is now permanently painted on the face of their religion, and people around the world have taken a general disdain for them. Of course their building of the mosque is going to make tempers flare, but you have to agree that over that past ten years it does sound a little curious as to why they intend on building it there. I hope you don't think I'M bashing Muslims, because I'm not, I happen to live next to a Muslim family, and we get along just fine.[/QUOTE] anyone who is offended by it is a damn fool the actions of the few do not represent the many when i think of 9/11, i don't think of islam, i think of TERRORISTS. they're a few extremists, and the millions of others should not have their rights stripped away because of them

[QUOTE=ScoutKing;24506549] if your going to call me out on my grammar LEARN THE DIFFERENCE FROM BE AND ME[/QUOTE] It's called an innocent typo. I don't understand at this point why you dislike me so much. I expressed my opinion without being crude like you have from the get-go, yet I somehow stepped on your foot so hard that you rely on cheap-shots and name calling while making more typos than I could make in three of my lifetimes. I guess when it comes down to accusing someone of bigotry, it takes one to know one. I have proven you wrong time and time again. I can't believe you didn't know Sharia Law has been around in the UK for 2 years now. I guess you really got an intellectual edge over me, you seem to know so much more about this than me. [QUOTE=combine487;24507816]The community centre isn't representative of the extremists that did 9/11, so we shouldn't pander to the idiots who think it is. Honestly this argument against the mosque is so fucking hypocritical it hurts my head[/QUOTE] I agree, it should be distinguished by now that it was terrorists who ran a plane into a building, not Muslims. Come to think, they are not really Muslims anymore by committing that act.

[QUOTE=Run&Gun12;24507582]Seeing how over 3,000 innocents were mass-murdered all on the same day, it would be incredibly arrogant if Muslims went in with an attitude of "why should we care about your feelings". I know that the attack on 9/11 doesn't represent all Muslims, and that this was a case from their extremists, but that attack is now permanently painted on the face of their religion, and people around the world have taken a general disdain for them. Of course their building of the mosque is going to make tempers flare, but you have to agree that over that past ten years it does sound a little curious as to why they intend on building it there. I hope you don't think I'M bashing Muslims, because I'm not, I happen to live next to a Muslim family, and we get along just fine.[/QUOTE] yeah people getting sensitive over Muslims over 9/11 is illogical seeing it was radicals that did it. I mean abortion clinic bombings and shootings are not tainted with Christians. so let me rephrase it, look at it from their stand point, why should they have to work around people feelings, giving up some of their rights, their right to build a mosque and worship on the land they bought for peoples feels and sensitivity over the issue that is illogical to begin with?

You're forgetting the arsons committed by christians.

[QUOTE=Hostel;24502803]Atheist follow many of the ten commandments but you don't see anyone saying that they are following Christian values. I guess the above would not make a valid point since I made a direct comparison. I honestly do not know how to explain this so you are perhaps right. Thank you for mentioning it.[/QUOTE] ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.' TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.' THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.' FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.' FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.' SIX: 'You shall not murder.' SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.' EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.' NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.' TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.' I only spot 2 or 3 that I follow, and all of these "commandments" were around before Christianity.

[QUOTE=CoolKingKaso;24507957]You're forgetting the arsons committed by christians.[/QUOTE] ahh that too, but we don't put a zone, or state churches can't be build in neighborhoods cause of crimes a few radical Christians did, it be illogical.