I find it pathetic that these men are escaping their countries to get on a better life here, yet they are totally unsatisfied with what we have to offer. They spent around 5000 dollars to get on the boat and just remember instructions the smugglers told them just to risk death, but with that money you could travel and get started in alot of places. Africa has so much materials that they could build cities like Dubai or Abu Dhabi 8 times over. If they just had proper education, not go along with Boko Haram, they would see the potential here.
I don't see the good in multiculturalism anymore- I thought it was about the variety of having like 70% of the city the local culture and the other 30% could be like asian, african, american, etc. Not opening the flood gates to bring in masses of grown men who will make the locals suffer and make our beautiful cities into shanty towns. It's not a problem about "being ready," it's a problem of keeping patriotism strong. I remember a protest in May where a sign saying "Estonia is not ready" was leading the pack, which means that we should take the refugees in, but we need more time. I wanted to burn that sign so fucking badly because it wasn't even directing the right way. Estonia already has shit of it's own- we have very low wages, our infrastructure is like the surface of the moon, even our people don't want to stay around since it's difficult to find honest work. Those are much more serious problems than getting more people named Mohammed Al Salaad Bakhdadi to make our laws, educate our kids, and help populate the country with more teenagers who want to escape to London to study music engineering.
Why am I called a racist when masses of robed men and women come to my door to ask for my belongings while their friends throw bricks into my windows and steal them even if I say no?
Am I a Nazi for wanting the life I've lived for 19 years to also stick with our offspring?
I am tired of these allophiles deciding what our future is going to turn into. I want my country to stick to what it is right now. I want our women to be able to show what angels they are, I want our kids to be happy and not fear for their safety.
Please note that economic migrant is just a buzz word developed by the right to stir up dissent against the refugees. While "only" 30% of the refugees might be Syrian, there are other countries like Afghanistan, Iraq, Central Africa, Somalia, Eritrea and some parts of Pakistan that live under brutal regimes or in violent conflicts. If you want to see where real "Economic migrants" come from, look towards places like Albania and not the middle east. And even then, many of the people fleeing other countries are ethnic Roma who face discrimination in places like Serbia and Albania.
Think however you may on the handling of the crisis, but realize that calling them economic migrants is just a way to justify hatred of them without looking at them as human beings fleeing from death and conflict.
[url]http://mashable.com/2015/09/09/refugee-crisis-where-people-are-coming-from/#_8cvp5A5fPqL[/url]
[url]http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SM.POP.REFG.OR[/url]
Don't worry guys! They will just naturalize and become normal and moderate and truly integrate with respect to western ideals!
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1le8KiPqt5I[/media]
[sp]Moderate Islam is still extreme go figure.[/sp]
[QUOTE=Orkel;49093719] fucking us both over. And closing the border would, of course, be racist.[/QUOTE]
The root of the problem right there. Any criticism of these policies gets you called racist. Obviously people don't want to be called racist and so concede or find themselves getting slandered by the crazy sensationalist media as people ignore their facts and just hear "racist".
Literally the same bully tactics used by in the 50s by the right.
[QUOTE=Aldawolf;49094664]Please note that economic migrant is just a buzz word developed by the right to stir up dissent against the refugees. While "only" 30% of the refugees might be Syrian, there are other countries like Afghanistan, Iraq, Central Africa, Somalia, Eritrea and some parts of Pakistan that live under brutal regimes or in violent conflicts. If you want to see where real "Economic migrants" come from, look towards places like Albania and not the middle east. And even then, many of the people fleeing other countries are ethnic Roma who face discrimination in places like Serbia and Albania.
Think however you may on the handling of the crisis, but realize that calling them economic migrants is just a way to justify hatred of them without looking at them as human beings fleeing from death and conflict.
[url]http://mashable.com/2015/09/09/refugee-crisis-where-people-are-coming-from/#_8cvp5A5fPqL[/url]
[url]http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SM.POP.REFG.OR[/url][/QUOTE]
We live in a violent oligarchy and we're not bolting it to the next European country. Never heard of a Turkish citizen among those economic migrants. Turks would rather stay and change the country. Has been that way since forever over here. Turkey was home to countless wars and civil unrests and I don't remember the last time there were Turkish refugees to anywhere. We won the war of independence with the help of civilians.
[url]https://www.google.com.tr/search?q=kurtulu%C5%9F+sava%C5%9F%C4%B1+kad%C4%B1nlar%C4%B1&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAWoVChMIxc70srKIyQIVw94sCh01dwos&biw=1280&bih=653[/url]
These were women in the Turkish war of independence who restored cartridges, carried weapons to the soldiers and whatsoever. Compare it to the Afghan, Pakistani "refugees" who can't stay and fix their countries or the Syrians who complain about the living standarts of Turkey so they go to Germany instead.
They are economic migrants. Simple as that. Africa or the Middle East will forever be shitholes if every other person feels like "I want more free shit, to Europe I go" and Europe lets them in. Who is going to stay back and fix those countries to make it more habitable?
They should get the Israelis to set up a non lethal version of that turret system on one of the many Israelis borders
[editline]11th November 2015[/editline]
Or just teargas them if they stirred up shit
Even on paper this sounded like an awful idea. Merkel's an idiot.
hey look ISIS terrorists are now in swedish refugee centers!
[url]http://www.allehanda.se/allmant/angermanland/asylsokande-till-boendepersonal-ni-vet-om-att-det-finns-is-medlemmar-har-va[/url]
Europe's gonna collapse so bad in the next years and we'll all be in deep shit then. Once the system collapses there'll be anarchy, followed by tyrannies.
[QUOTE=SebiWarrior;49097027]Europe's gonna collapse so bad in the next years and we'll all be in deep shit then. Once the system collapses there'll be anarchy, followed by tyrannies.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but only the part where you're in.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];49093073']I'm sorry, but the number of refugees you're in-taking (you being Europe) is tiny compared to the yearly birth rate. The stress on the system is immensely small- the problems that you're experiencing are due to unpreparedness to handle the situation, not to take care of the people in the intermediate or even long term. Once this smooths itself out then you won't even realize they are there.
And actually, it's interesting you say that because I live just outside one of the largest Iraqi and Syrian refugee intake area in the US right now. We already had 3000 arrive and another 4000 coming soon within the year, with us bringing in a big chunk of the 100k expected by 2017. We don't exactly have the numbers that you have, but the fact that we aren't having the same sort of issues that you're seeing is kind of evidence towards what preparedness does for the situation.[/QUOTE]
Theres your problem.
You're comparing the US with Germany and other smaller countries, some with big problems going on, and you're comparing what could be called a handful of people going into a huge country, to a fuckton of people going into much smaller countries.
And how are you even sure it will smooth itself out lol?
Speaking for Portugal... Portugal hasn't "smoothed itself out" from its own shit ever. What makes you think having more problems will not make it worse?
Despite speaking for my country, I'm pretty sure there are other countries that might have problems, just as we do, so... yeah, as always, a whole lot of blind faith and helpfulness
[editline]11th November 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=EdvardSchnitz;49093159]The thing about Yugoslovian refugees is that they actually respected their host nations and werent economic migrants in disguise.[/QUOTE]
Heres one problem.
We handed them the help, and gave them large expectations.
[editline]11th November 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=asteroidrules;49093093]Can you provide any significant proof that the burning supplies incidents are a significant problem and not just an anecdote propagated to incite division about the issue? How is them trying to get to countries that have greater resources and thus better ability to provide for refugees a problem? Or for that matter how can you pretend the same didn't happen when Yugoslav refugees spread all across western Europe and a decent amount fled as far as America (I think it's safe to say you're not just going to claim I don't exist).
Also there were actually about 4 million people displaced by the Yugoslav wars, and the numbers I'm seeing suggest a total of closer to 600,000 refugees are currently applying annually in Europe (compared to the native population growth rate of over 1 million annually).[/QUOTE]
Uhm, gee, maybe its because we're talking about countries that are already under strain with its own civilians?
Pretty sure the whole world was rather different during the Yugoslav wars...
But hey, its lovely to hear that if you're a refugee, you literaly get free money and college tuition, but if you're someone who suffers from a disease and can't work, you won't get any money from the government unless you're dead sure you're about to go into a shoebox in the dirt.
[editline]11th November 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Aldawolf;49094664]Please note that economic migrant is just a buzz word developed by the right to stir up dissent against the refugees. While "only" 30% of the refugees might be Syrian, there are other countries like Afghanistan, Iraq, Central Africa, Somalia, Eritrea and some parts of Pakistan that live under brutal regimes or in violent conflicts. If you want to see where real "Economic migrants" come from, look towards places like Albania and not the middle east. And even then, many of the people fleeing other countries are ethnic Roma who face discrimination in places like Serbia and Albania.
Think however you may on the handling of the crisis, but realize that calling them economic migrants is just a way to justify hatred of them without looking at them as human beings fleeing from death and conflict.
[url]http://mashable.com/2015/09/09/refugee-crisis-where-people-are-coming-from/#_8cvp5A5fPqL[/url]
[url]http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SM.POP.REFG.OR[/url][/QUOTE]
Then I guess we can call them lazy people.
Time and time again, have nations gone past war times and rebuild themselves from the ground up.
Despite this, everyone just rather run away to somewhere else and complain that the places they flee to aren't good enough.
Legit saying "Well why don't they fix their country" is the biggest victim blaming I have ever heard.
[editline]11th November 2015[/editline]
Why not face against Russia, ISIS and Assad as a moderate rebel?! I mean surely they have a chance to fix their country right, especially when Assad gasses civilians and ISIS commits mass executions against anyone they disagree with.
[QUOTE=Aldawolf;49097705]
[editline]11th November 2015[/editline]
Why not face against Russia, ISIS and Assad as a moderate rebel?![/QUOTE]
what moderate rebels.
Define Moderate rebel. The above video shows self-declared moderates.
Also, I suggest citing some sources here.
People still think these migrants only come from Syria?
[QUOTE=Saphirx;49097752]People still think these migrants only come from Syria?[/QUOTE]
Nah, it's gone from "they're only Syrian refugees, it's okay" to "it's a lot of other people, but their countries have problems too so it's still okay."
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;49097762]Nah, it's gone from "they're only Syrian refugees, it's okay" to "it's a lot of other people, but their countries have problems too so it's still okay."[/QUOTE]
There's more than 1 war going on in the world you know
[QUOTE=Aldawolf;49097817]There's more than 1 war going on in the world you know[/QUOTE]
You know, you're really stretching that statement out of context.
If you want me to explain it, I will, but you still haven't defined what a moderate rebel is in Syria, and just how many there are of those.
[QUOTE=Aldawolf;49097817]There's more than 1 war going on in the world you know[/QUOTE]
Yeah but it's not alright to play the victim if all you want to do is get into the country, get free money and shit and after that just go back. The real victims they can stay as much as they want as long as they at least try to get used to the ways of living here, the rest can go back straight away.
Well looking at everyone's comments and view points i guess we have two sides.
We have one that wants to allow the immigrants and refugees to come into Europe to avoid conflict and probably live in a better life than their original country. Then we have one side that is concerned by the spreading of Islam Fundamentalism and Extreme version of the Islamic religion that can possibly become a presence in European countries through the influx of Immigrants.
To be honest, both sides have their positives. But I'm rather with the side of being scared of the spread of Islamic fundamentalism. If the people are fleeing to Europe, thats fine by me (can't say much since i live in the US), but leave your extreme ideals and Fundamentalism at the damn door. Saudi Arabia and other Fundamentalist Islamic countries are twiddling their fingers with joy now since they can expand their influence in Europe considering the influx of muslim immigrants. Though, there comes the problem of overcrowding and that stuff...which i have no idea how thats going to work out.
In other words, I'm not afraid of the immigrants and refugees, I'm afraid of the countries that can abuse this. Looking at you Saudi Arabia.
[QUOTE=Aldawolf;49097817]There's more than 1 war going on in the world you know[/QUOTE]
Lol wow
so now, instead of dealing with the countries problems, people will just run away to other countries, probably even dragging the problems with them one way or another
[QUOTE=Deathtrooper2;49098037]Well looking at everyone's comments and view points i guess we have two sides.
We have one that wants to allow the immigrants and refugees to come into Europe to avoid conflict and probably live in a better life than their original country. Then we have one side that is concerned by the spreading of Islam Fundamentalism and Extreme version of the Islamic religion that can possibly become a presence in European countries through the influx of Immigrants.
To be honest, both sides have their positives. But I'm rather with the side of being scared of the spread of Islamic fundamentalism. If the people are fleeing to Europe, thats fine by me (can't say much since i live in the US), but leave your extreme ideals and Fundamentalism at the damn door. Saudi Arabia and other Fundamentalist Islamic countries are twiddling their fingers with joy now since they can expand their influence in Europe considering the influx of muslim immigrants. Though, there comes the problem of overcrowding and that stuff...which i have no idea how thats going to work out.
In other words, I'm not afraid of the immigrants and refugees, I'm afraid of the countries that can abuse this. Looking at you Saudi Arabia.[/QUOTE]
There is also the third side that lives in poorer countries with huge problems and economy that simply can't handle all this. Here we have an unemployment rate of 17%, and the total number of employed people is the lowest in recorded history, and recession last 6 years already. Greece, Macedonia, Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia, Hungary are all poor countries, and would be completely fucked if Austria and Germany would suddenly shut down their borders, and leave all these people for us to handle.
Over 350 000 crossed Croatia, and 170 000 people crossed Slovenia in the past month, those are numbers close to 10 % of the countries population. It's simply too much, we can just help them move froward.
[QUOTE=Aldawolf;49097817]There's more than 1 war going on in the world you know[/QUOTE]
This is a terrible way for you to argue that [B][I]SYRIAN[/I][/B] refugees are the ones we're talking about specifically
simple rule, no permanent citizenship unless you paying 5 years taxes from work or business ...
and those of you who protest, I assume you never paid single tax dime ...
if you commit crime within next 20 years then instant loss of refugee status / degrade to temporary citizenship / or expel based on severity of crime
p.s. are you even aware that 'refugees' gets in some states money and can work temporary while 'searching for work w/o being taxed?
stupidity of EU Absurdistan is on edge of Idiocracy movie ...
[QUOTE=Talishmar;49092574]This situation is confusing as fuck, and doesn't help there's two sides that defend their views even if they knew they were wrong. And it seems there's two sides to every argument.
"They're uneducated and won't find legal work" "They're young adults with degrees and education ready so it's workforce we don't have to pay to educate" "The educational standards are much higher here so they don't qualify"
"They clearly are very criminal because publicly reporting their crimes isn't allowed anymore" "Their crimes would be unfairly publicized to make them seem as bad as possible"
"They're only 1% to the population, abysmal number" "City centres seem filled with them, on occasions they're outnumbering village populations and I've heard people have had confrontations with them"
"They'll leave as the conflict in their country settles" "They're not where they say they're from and want in on our prosperity"
"They'll bring their extremist ideals to us" "It's baseless conjecture and fearmongering"
"So many people needing aid and resources will fuck the economy" "They're educated professionals which we have a need of"
"The cultural differences will cause conflicts" "Only if you're racist they will"
Either side can be right but there's just no way to know, especially since such a huge bunch of people are ignorant and will gladly buy into fearmongering but another bunch just refuses any evidence.[/QUOTE]
There's a middle road between Nazism and extreme leftist political correctness. Both the left and right seem use the issue to garner support. The news just panders to people's baser instincts of fear and compassion. I suggest you take anything you hear about the migrant crisis with a grain of salt.
[QUOTE=Incoming.;49097751]what moderate rebels.
Define Moderate rebel. The above video shows self-declared moderates.
Also, I suggest citing some sources here.[/QUOTE]
Citing what sources? What I'm talking about is 100% common knowledge if you want to know anything about the Syrian Civil War. If you know nothing of the rise of ISIS and Russia's involvement then I suggest you educate yourself on the basics, it should be trivial to find news pieces on it.
Those self declared moderates have absolutely 0% to do with what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about basically boils down to the various non-ISIS affiliated rebel groups trying to fight the Assad regime, the same Assad regime backed by Russia. Said moderate rebel groups are also under fire by ISIS.
If you must have a source [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_armed_groups_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War[/url]
[editline]11th November 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49098493]This is a terrible way for you to argue that [B][I]SYRIAN[/I][/B] refugees are the ones we're talking about specifically[/QUOTE]
Yes, but people argue against the refugees as "only a fraction are Syrian, therefore economic migrants" when there are more countries in turmoil besides Syria.
so, because we're politically correct ...
why we let-in anyone instead of setup correct rules to ensure who may stay in Europe and who may become permanent citizen ,
respects local laws, get job or build business, pay 5-10 years taxes, no crimes for 20 years (or more because we don't want crime anyway) ,
be solid EU residents, support freedom of speech and rights to live and let live ...
(quite sure groups / individuals who demand Sharia are equal to Nazism or Communism(Stalinism))
now let me see how many EU countries have such laws ...
[QUOTE=Aldawolf;49098608]Citing what sources? What I'm talking about is 100% common knowledge if you want to know anything about the Syrian Civil War. If you know nothing of the rise of ISIS and Russia's involvement then I suggest you educate yourself on the basics, it should be trivial to find news pieces on it.
Those self declared moderates have absolutely 0% to do with what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about basically boils down to the various non-ISIS affiliated rebel groups trying to fight the Assad regime.
[editline]11th November 2015[/editline]
Yes, but people argue against the refugees as "only a fraction are Syrian, therefore economic migrants" when there are more countries in turmoil besides Syria.[/QUOTE]
If we're accepting Syrians then we should just let them all come? Where'd that logical leap come from
There are many countries in the middle east and Africa
some of those countries are embroiled in Civil War of various kind
many people who would qualify for refugee status come from those countries
This crisis isn't 100% about Syrians, it's about many other groups. I'm trying to address one of the main argument points of the political right that the "Vast majority" of the refugees are "Economic migrants". They often cite the fact that many of the refugees come from countries that aren't Syria. What they fail to cite is the fact that there are other countries besides Syria where people come from that are under regimes or part of Civil Wars like Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, Central Africa, Eritrea and more.
[url]http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.php#_ga=1.63702188.2001615450.1443104329[/url]
Every single country on the list where the majority of refugees come from is a country that is involved in war or where they rightly fear being prosecuted for their beliefs (Such as in the case of Eritrea). So I see no point in calling them economic migrants when they all come from countries where they are in the right to fear for their lives.
My point is Economic Migrant is a buzz word that has no grounded reality and should not be used to justify hatred of them. And my other point is that the "other countries besides Syria" where people come from are also places where people may rightfully fear for their lives.
"Economic migrants" make up such a small population of the refugees is negligible to even consider it a problem.
[QUOTE=Aldawolf;49098608]:words:[/QUOTE]
since when did asking a basic question mean I have no knowledge of the situation.
I wanted your own interpretation, which I assume is based on solid and objective facts. But no, now I need to "educate myself" on things I'm already aware of.
"Those self declared moderates have absolutely 0% to do with what I'm talking about" why shouldn't it? Why should this discussion not include a supposedly pivotal element of this crisis? The United States is spending billions of dollars on funding these groups. [URL="http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2015/06/04/Fog-War-US-Has-Armed-ISIS"]Half of their weapons have gone to the wrong people.[/URL]
The reason this is key? If we can't find trustworthy groups in their own country, how can we be sure there aren't massive amounts of undesirable extremists, or even falsely proclaimed "moderates" abusing an overwhelmed refugee system?
Sure, there's tons of people fighting in that part of the region, some less extreme than others, but does that mean everything can smooth itself over? No. It really doesn't.
At first, it was just Syria. People would lie about being Syrian. Now, its all African countries that seem to be in turmoil. I'm not saying these claims are false, but does this warrant a mass exodus of practically an entire workforce? All this is, is moving the goalpost. When everyone found out these were a majority of liars, the goalpost shifted to "But they have bad governments, too!" Where does it end? Is there no set line in the sand where we say its simply too much, too soon?
This mass acceptance is under a good idea, but its just that: an idea. Appealing to higher morals, through ideas that have never been done at this scale, or at this level of incompetence. Put a mass refugee program into practice like this, allow behavior like refusing to leave [URL="http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34142512"]trains[/URL] and [URL="http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/29/refugees-refusing-leave-bus-too-cold-sweden-removed"]buses[/URL]? They want to go to warmer places? It points to a failed execution.
People on their last legs are not demanding a faster internet. They want basic needs fulfilled, and a roof over their heads no matter how basic. They want a stable environment.
If all goes great, if this "smooths over" as you have yourself said it would, I would be happy to see it. But I simply don't.
I ask for sources, and receive none, under a guise of "common sense" and a Wikipedia article, not about the composition of the refugees origins, correlation between refugees and crime, the such - but about the war itself. We know what the factions are. What we don't know is: who among this crowd has good intentions, who doesn't, or even more importantly, how do we find out with these massive numbers?
Common sense is subjective, you know. I'm not sure our definitions of the term match up. This is why you need to source some claims like I just did. After all, what I said was [at least to me] "common knowledge".
[QUOTE=Aldawolf;49098723]
"Economic migrants" make up such a small population of the refugees is negligible to even consider it a problem.[/QUOTE]
Over here it's like 2/3. Is that small?
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