• 5 Words I'd like to see Retired from Game Discussion (TotalBiscuit)
    71 replies, posted
Imo, overrated means that it's popular for reasons other than actually being a good game. Examples would be games that are liked for nostalgia, brand loyalty, market dominance, etc. There are a lot of games that don't have great game play, a great story, or anything else that makes a great game yet are popular for one of those other reasons.
[QUOTE=Funktastic Dog;49527152]Honestly, Rogue-like is a really good term. Language changes over time TB, get used to it. Rogue-like as it's known today means any game in which you lose all "progress" when you die. I think that's a good term and really simplifies things.[/QUOTE] absolutely not. Roguelikes were also known for their extensive RPG mechanics where you have to take consideration food/water/sleep, the huge variety of ways to die, and niche mechanics that you could creatively exploit to great effect. Games like spelunky, Delver, or One More Dungeon don't have [I]any of that[/I]. They have randomly generated levels and permadeath in common and that's it. I've seen the term "roguelike-like" a few times and it's a much better descriptor even if it sounds kind of dumb. Language evolves, yes, but it's not constructive evolution when you're depriving shit of words to accurately describe it. It's like dumbing down the term for "football" to mean "any game where a ball is thrown".
[QUOTE=RichyZ;49527355]It could be a useful word for tempering someone's expectations about a game. You could tell someone before they buy Fallout 4 that it's overrated and there are a myriad of issues that a lot of journalism outlets didn't cover because of the hype.[/QUOTE] Or reviewers saying it's awesome while busy putting on their pipboy.
I really don't get his problem with the word Pay2Win. In the case of reviewers, sure, they should elaborate more beyond just saying that, but even in that case there's still nothing wrong with using that word. But in the case of literally anyone else, like, does he expect that everyone who heads to an internet board to express their dislike of a game's business model writes a fucking essay about it or something?
[QUOTE=elowin;49528061]I really don't get his problem with the word Pay2Win. In the case of reviewers, sure, they should elaborate more beyond just saying that, but even in that case there's still nothing wrong with using that word. But in the case of literally anyone else, like, does he expect that everyone who heads to an internet board to express their dislike of a game's business model writes a fucking essay about it or something?[/QUOTE] TB used to be more against pay to win games in the past, and even used the term himself quite a few times to describe games. The problem with TB is he's the kind of person who uses extremes as his gauge, recently he has been playing a lot of 'free' mobile games with shitty pay to win models and has had a pretty sudden shift on his stance on what constitutes free to play. He's the kind of person who thinks "You can't complain that Dirty Bomb* is pay to win because [i]this[/i] game on iOS is way worse." Somehow only the worst can be acceptably complained about to him. *I'm just using Dirty Bomb as an example I have no idea what its payment model is like or how balanced it is.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;49528118]TB used to be more against pay to win games in the past, and even used the term himself quite a few times to describe games. The problem with TB is he's the kind of person who uses extremes as his gauge, recently he has been playing a lot of 'free' mobile games with shitty pay to win models and has had a pretty sudden shift on his stance on what constitutes free to play. He's the kind of person who thinks "You can't complain that Dirty Bomb* is pay to win because [i]this[/i] game on iOS is way worse." Somehow only the worst can be acceptably complained about to him. *I'm just using Dirty Bomb as an example I have no idea what its payment model is like or how balanced it is.[/QUOTE] The only problem with the term is that it encompasses a huge variety of models. Almost everything with a cash shop is P2W in some way. TF2 locks away weapons that might better fit your playstyle giving you the slightest advantage, but they're balanced with the weapons in the game, and you can get them for free in game with some work. It's the lightest form of P2W possible Then you have MMOs like TERA where you can get cosmetic items and materials for enchantment(that you can get ingame) from the shop, which you can also sell for in game gold to get consumables and equipment, though the highest level materials and equipment are all trade locked so you get serious diminishing returns for this in endgame. It's kinda-sorta P2W. There's still nothing that you can cash shop that will give you an advantage that's inaccessible to regular players. Then finally, you have blatant P2W whores like Cosmic Break, which released incredibly overpowered cash shop bots that completely raped everything else in the game. They could only be gotten on cash shop [I]through fucking gambling[/I], and while you could very slowly grind for cash shop currency, you could only earn yourself like a roll a month by my recollection.
[QUOTE=Funktastic Dog;49527152]Honestly, Rogue-like is a really good term. Language changes over time TB, get used to it. Rogue-like as it's known today means any game in which you lose all "progress" when you die. I think that's a good term and really simplifies things.[/QUOTE] I thought it was more inherently about the randomly generated aspect of the game
completely dismissing an in-development game as "fully released" [and fully developed] if it's released for money during its beta development misses the point of a generic beta development cycle. i.e.; charging money for a game during its beta phase doesn't immediately make the game in question stop being a beta game. I agree, saying that a beta game cannot take any criticism at all should ideally not happen. that doesn't invalidate one of the most common game development models that exist.
[QUOTE=CoixNiro;49528004]absolutely not. Roguelikes were also known for their extensive RPG mechanics where you have to take consideration food/water/sleep, the huge variety of ways to die, and niche mechanics that you could creatively exploit to great effect. Games like spelunky, Delver, or One More Dungeon don't have [I]any of that[/I]. They have randomly generated levels and permadeath in common and that's it. I've seen the term "roguelike-like" a few times and it's a much better descriptor even if it sounds kind of dumb. Language evolves, yes, but it's not constructive evolution when you're depriving shit of words to accurately describe it. It's like dumbing down the term for "football" to mean "any game where a ball is thrown".[/QUOTE] Didn't Roguelite become the common term for games with permadeath and randomly generated levels and items, but without the more in depth mechanics that Roguelikes are known for?
leave it to someone who praises Dirty Bomb to want to retire the phrase 'Pay-2-Win' from reviews :smug: Surprised to not see the phrase "indie" here, since it's something that would actually benefit the industry rather than satisfy some pet-peeves.
[QUOTE=General J;49528363]leave it to someone who praises Dirty Bomb to want to retire the phrase 'Pay-2-Win' from reviews :smug: Surprised to not see the phrase "indie" here, since it's something that would actually benefit the industry rather than satisfy some pet-peeves.[/QUOTE] except dirty bomb is probably the least p2w f2p game out there right now along with dota and path of exile.
Concerning actual roguelikes and shitty little RPGs that indie devs keep pumping out and for some reason categorizing as roguelikes, please read this: [url]http://www.roguebasin.com/index.php?title=What_a_roguelike_is[/url]
[QUOTE=SoaringScout;49527098]leave it to totalbiscuit to make a 42 minute video about 5 words[/QUOTE] At least he was honest in saying he just wanted money.
Pay-2- A game where you must pay to stand a chance competitively Cinematic - More movie than game, should be avoided Overrated - Obviously ratings are subjective silly. Roguelike - Dunno why complain Beta - EarlyAccess deserves to be shit on more.
[QUOTE=Funktastic Dog;49527152]H Rogue-like as it's known today means any game in which you lose all "progress" when you die. I think that's a good term and really simplifies things.[/QUOTE] I personally feel as if it's less evolution of language and more misuse of it. Roguelike has had a very concrete definition of what it is since the [I]80s[/I] and it wasn't until Spelunky that everything with roguelike elements became a roguelike. I think it's kind of like saying Silent Hill 2 and Doom 3 are both horror themed action games because they both have combat and scary stuff. For example, several Worms games have what is essentially permadeath and procedural generation, but they're [I]definitely[/I] not in the same genre as Nethack or DC:SS
[QUOTE=Rufia;49528274]Didn't Roguelite become the common term for games with permadeath and randomly generated levels and items, but without the more in depth mechanics that Roguelikes are known for?[/QUOTE] Yeah, Northernlion began using it, or atleast that's who I heard use it first, and then some people caught on but most didn't. [editline]14th January 2016[/editline] It's a really good term. Another term that I'd like to see used instead of walking simulators is Spooky Sightseeing or something like that
[QUOTE=General J;49528363]leave it to someone who praises Dirty Bomb to want to retire the phrase 'Pay-2-Win' from reviews :smug:[/QUOTE] Hey you may have missed this the other time you said this bullshit. [QUOTE=General J;49405930]Look the gunplay/gameplay is actually fairly decent but at the end of the day there are direct Pay-To-Win mechanics tied to the game in terms of buying class cards in higher quality that has more perks. So disagree and dumb all you want but it's true.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Skyward;49405938]None of the cards you can buy have more perks than cards you earn in game. Cards that can [I]only [/I]be purchased are [I]variants of the same cards that can be earned[/I], but with unique skins. Loadout cards of Silver, Gold, and Cobalt rank (only obtainable from purchased packs) have the same perks and weapons as loadout cards in the Bronze rank (the highest rank that can be obtained with in-game currency). The difference is that the weapons and merc in the silver/gold/cobalt loadouts have a skin matching the rank. The only thing behind the paywall is the cosmetic difference. So no. It's not true.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;49529126] [..] Beta - EarlyAccess deserves to be shit on more.[/QUOTE] not really- at least, just the concept of Steam's Early Access shouldn't be 'shit on'. one should instead 'shit on' the games that have made Steam's Early Access concept look as bad as it currently does.
All you guys arguing over what a roguelike is are just proving his point. It means so many different things to so many different people that it's not really a useful "tag" when you're looking for a game on steam. If you go to a place like roguebasin which has a stricter definition that is actually stuck to I can see it being helpful. On steam though, not really. edit: I think a lot of you are missing the point of this video. It's not titled "words that are completely useless in every context" It's words that aren't really helpful when describing games. They are all too ambiguous now to really help describing a game. Pay2Win, beta, rouge like, overrated, cinematic are all examples of this. If I was reading a review that described a game in any of these ways, it wouldn't really tell me anything. Oh you think this game is pay2win? Well people say LoL is pay to win and I think that's bullshit. You think a game is overrated? So a lot of people like it and you think they shouldn't like it as much as they do? Yeah, super helpful info right there, thanks.
Franchise is my pet peeve word in gaming, for someone who knows what a franchise is it feels like a dirty word, especially when people use it synonymous with series. Like Caddicarus calling the Uncharted series a franchise in a retrospective video made me cringe.
[QUOTE=Funktastic Dog;49527152]Honestly, Rogue-like is a really good term. Language changes over time TB, get used to it. Rogue-like as it's known today means any game in which you lose all "progress" when you die. I think that's a good term and really simplifies things.[/QUOTE] Not really. Perma-death gets the point across better.
[QUOTE=Funktastic Dog;49527152]Honestly, Rogue-like is a really good term. Language changes over time TB, get used to it. Rogue-like as it's known today means any game in which you lose all "progress" when you die. I think that's a good term and really simplifies things.[/QUOTE] Easier to call it hardcore imo. I mean, how is that rogue?
Overrated is useful when describing a game that's more highly regarded by reviewers than by the general gaming population (such as GTA 4 or Bioshock Infinite) Roguelike nowadays essentially means "both permadeath and randomly generated levels". I don't think people are going to stop using that definition. I agree with him whole-heartedly on everything else though, especially "beta"
[QUOTE=Ltp0wer;49529762]All you guys arguing over what a roguelike is are just proving his point. It means so many different things to so many different people that it's not really a useful "tag" when you're looking for a game on steam. If you go to a place like roguebasin which has a stricter definition that is actually stuck to I can see it being helpful. On steam though, not really. edit: I think a lot of you are missing the point of this video. It's not titled "words that are completely useless in every context" It's words that aren't really helpful when describing games. They are all too ambiguous now to really help describing a game. Pay2Win, beta, rouge like, overrated, cinematic are all examples of this. If I was reading a review that described a game in any of these ways, it wouldn't really tell me anything. Oh you think this game is pay2win? Well people say LoL is pay to win and I think that's bullshit. You think a game is overrated? So a lot of people like it and you think they shouldn't like it as much as they do? Yeah, super helpful info right there, thanks.[/QUOTE] Honestly this. Roguelike is about as descriptive as calling first person shooters Doomclones, it's not really a relevant term anymore.
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;49530538]Overrated is useful when describing a game that's more highly regarded by reviewers than by the general gaming population (such as GTA 4 or Bioshock Infinite) Roguelike nowadays essentially means "both permadeath and randomly generated levels". I don't think people are going to stop using that definition. I agree with him whole-heartedly on everything else though, especially "beta"[/QUOTE] Overrated is basically the one word I'd use to describe Bioshock Infinite and I wouldn't say it's a meaningless term. Everyone loved it because it was a middling shooter that pretended to be all artsy and full of emotion and thematic exploration when really it was just rail-roading you through a somewhat interesting world and telling a relatively silly story in a way that took no advantage of being a game instead of a book or a movie... kinda like the Last of Us. Cinematic was really weird because I'd use cinematic in a negative way to describe Order 1886 but in a positive way to describe Uncharted. Then if someone asked me why Uncharted was cinematic I'd go into length about all the ways it's cinematic and it'd be way better if I just explained the game rather than using the word cinematic because it kind of just means so much that it basically just means nothing. And beta is just a marketing term, it just means demo for a multiplayer game now. Which is so weird, what's wrong with the word demo?
[QUOTE=ZestyLemons;49530642]Honestly this. Roguelike is about as descriptive as calling first person shooters Doomclones, it's not really a relevant term anymore.[/QUOTE] Roguelike is still relevant, just misused in steam tags.
[QUOTE=Funktastic Dog;49527152]Honestly, Rogue-like is a really good term. Language changes over time TB, get used to it. Rogue-like as it's known today means any game in which you lose all "progress" when you die. I think that's a good term and really simplifies things.[/QUOTE] The problem is that it tells you as much as calling titanfall a doom-like because it's an fps, most games that call themselves rogue-likes nowadays have nothing in common with the game, [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_(video_game)]Rogue[/url], other than it is procedurally generated.
As I've already stated, the roguelike confusion comes from clueless indie devs slapping as many labels on their shitty little games as possible, which results in clueless gamers misinterpreting those labels and 'redefining' them through their ignorance willing to bet most people in this have never played an actual roguelike
[QUOTE=cynaraos;49529697]not really- at least, just the concept of Steam's Early Access shouldn't be 'shit on'. one should instead 'shit on' the games that have made Steam's Early Access concept look as bad as it currently does.[/QUOTE] Early access is the classic case of "this is why we can't have nice things." Done right, it's great. You can count the number of those games on your fingers rather easily. In general, it's pure cancer. I'd rather not see the handful of good instances of it because it doesn't exist than not see the handful of good instances because they are hidden in an ocean of shit.
[QUOTE=Rossy167;49530651]Overrated is basically the one word I'd use to describe Bioshock Infinite and I wouldn't say it's a meaningless term. Everyone loved it because it was a middling shooter that pretended to be all artsy and full of emotion and thematic exploration when really it was just rail-roading you through a somewhat interesting world and telling a relatively silly story in a way that took no advantage of being a game instead of a book or a movie... kinda like the Last of Us. Cinematic was really weird because I'd use cinematic in a negative way to describe Order 1886 but in a positive way to describe Uncharted. Then if someone asked me why Uncharted was cinematic I'd go into length about all the ways it's cinematic and it'd be way better if I just explained the game rather than using the word cinematic because it kind of just means so much that it basically just means nothing. And beta is just a marketing term, it just means demo for a multiplayer game now. Which is so weird, what's wrong with the word demo?[/QUOTE] I think that the weight people give to these five words correlates with the amount of trust someone has in the speaker's opinion. This is true with opinions in general, you give more credence to people you've agreed with before. If my best friend tells me that Undertale is an overrated game and that I won't like it, his use of the words are helpful because I know what he means. Even if multiple dudes on facepunch say Undertale is an overrated game, it doesn't really help me at all because I've seen many games I love called overrated on facepunch. It's the exact same thing with the rest of the words. Like I said earlier, totalbiscuit isn't saying that the words are meaningless in all contexts, they just aren't helpful when they pop up in game discussions. Asking your friend's opinion is different than discussing the merits of a game on an internet forum, and in the latter context, it's useless bullshit. [QUOTE=Helix Snake;49530538][I]Overrated is useful when describing a game that's more highly regarded by reviewers than by the general gaming population (such as GTA 4 or Bioshock Infinite) Roguelike nowadays essentially means "both permadeath and randomly generated levels". I don't think people are going to stop using that definition.[/I] I agree with him whole-heartedly on everything else though, especially "beta"[/QUOTE] The problem with this is that people don't have the same definitions as you. When I hear overrated, I don't think "User reviews scored below critic reviews". I don't think a lot of people do. In fact, sometimes I think the opposite (the newer Mad Max game comes to mind personally, emphasis on personally) . To the guy that said something akin to "Words' meanings change totalbiscuit, deal with it," that's exactly his point. These words have changed too much. If the usage of a word changed but still meant the same thing to everyone, it wouldn't be an issue. This isn't what has happened to the words he mentioned. He addresses it in the video, some words change to have multiple definitions and get too ambiguous to be useful.
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