Radical Islamists attack Radiohead event in Istanbul - General

[QUOTE=Kommodore;50555987]remind me how well gays and women do in any developing country, in any traditional society, regardless of religion[/QUOTE] So that makes muslim world less conservative? What? What are you even trying to do here?

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50554973]If someone would be criticizing christians today and their values he would be talking about the ideology and those who follow it. Those who think god and jesus is real but don't really practice their religion are not part of that critique. Stop attempting to twist my words. [/QUOTE] You are once again equating a whole religion with an ideology and thus treating the billions of people who follow it peacefully unfair. Radical/exremist Islam/Wahabism is an ideology. Islam is a religion.

0:35, A true man never wastes a beer despite the situation.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50556023]So that makes muslim world less conservative? What? What are you even trying to do here?[/QUOTE] Showing how you are attributing the lack of rights for homosexual and women to the religion when in reality it's the state of development that's the indicator. How did you not get that? [QUOTE=Silly Sil;50555272]Try again.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Killuah;50556174]You are once again equating a whole religion with an ideology and thus treating the billions of people who follow it peacefully unfair. Radical/exremist Islam/Wahabism is an ideology. Islam is a religion.[/QUOTE] So islam has no values or tenets then? No scriptures to follow? Who am I treating wrong? Islam isn't people, it's an ideology. I'm not saying "all muslims" this or that because not all of them follow it so strictly. [QUOTE=Killuah;50556193]Showing how you are attributing the lack of rights for homosexual and women to the religion when in reality it's the state of development that's the indicator. How did you not get that?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Trebgarta;50556109]It means Islam isnt any special. Look up LGBT rights in Armenia, look up what the conservative government had to say about the firebombing of an LGBT bar 4 years ago.[/QUOTE] What the fuck are you talking about? Someone asked if by that logic 2/3 of muslims are conservative and I said, yes, look at the gay and women's rights in muslim world. That's it. Yeah islam doesn't have a monopoly on being homophobic, and? That doesn't make muslims any less conservative.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50556315]So islam has no values or tenets then? No scriptures to follow? Who am I treating wrong? Islam isn't people, it's an ideology. [B]I'm not saying "all muslims"[/B] this or that because not all of them follow it so strictly. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Silly Sil;50554484]Uh. What? You want people to be differentiating [B]muslims[/B] who actually follow the tenets of islam from [B]muslims[/B]? You want to differentiate the majority? The ones who are more true to the book? They are not some vocal minority. And when you say "christians" you think of those who follow their religion, believe in god almighty, his son Jesus Christ and the holy ghost, heaven and hell, who go to church and pray, etc etc. Not the ones who go "meh, yeah, I think there's some higher power, it's probably the christian god but I don't really mind".[/QUOTE] Yeah, what you are saying is "all who follow it strictly" are dangerous because and backwards and you are also saying those who are not following te scriptures strictly are not really Muslims. [editline]20th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Silly Sil;50556315] What the fuck are you talking about? Someone asked if by that logic 2/3 of muslims are conservative and I said, yes, look at the gay and women's rights in muslim world. That's it. Yeah islam doesn't have a monopoly on being homophobic, and? That doesn't make muslims any less conservative.[/QUOTE] Yeah but that has not exclusively something to do with them being Muslims and that what you are trying to imply here.

[QUOTE=Killuah;50556390]Yeah, what you are saying is "all who follow it strictly" are dangerous because and backwards and you are also saying those who are not following te scriptures strictly are not really Muslims.[/QUOTE] First of all: You just tried to refute that I am actually saying "all muslims" with a quote of me where I make it clear I don't believe they are all the same. Where I make it clear not all of them are strictly following islam. Second: I have never used the word dangerous in this thread. Third: I have never used the term "not real muslim/muslims". [QUOTE=Killuah;50556390]Yeah but that has not exclusively something to do with them being Muslims and that what you are trying to imply here.[/QUOTE] Again what the fuck are you talking about? I have never said Islam has a monopoly on being backwards or intolerant. You have not addressed accurately any of the points I am making. All you're doing is trying to put words in my mouth. Why don't you try responding to what I'm actually saying? Otherwise what is even the point in replying?

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;50555201] Tenets are: Shahadah, Salah, Zakat, Sawm, and Hajj. Which one is the danger to western society?[/QUOTE] It's funny that nobody wanted to try and respond to this

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;50556519]It's funny that nobody wanted to try and respond to this[/QUOTE] Probably because it's so laughably simplistic as to be useless. Obviously reading and following the Quran and hadith are a key part of Islam.

That's anything but radical.

I'm fairly tired of this "I am criticizing Islam the religion not Muslims" tactic of debating that in the end is just your justification to make generalizations about people. Also I thought you'd get that your tone is somewhat hostile when I reused that "try again" quote from you but apparently not. In the end you are still drawing conclusions and using your rhetoric to smear all of the religion, it's most evident in posts like this [quote]Did you miss the part where muslim fundamentalists were beating up the more casual ones for not fasting during ramadan? Yeah man, islam sure isn't violent. Once you stop following most of it. [/quote] You don't need to actually write the word dangerous, I can read inbetween those two lines but I guess it's conveniet for you to say it like that. Again, why not say fundies when you mean fundies, instead you post this BS to justify your own weird logic and rhetoric that allows you to indirectly criticize all of them: [quote]When people say "islam is not compatible with western culture" or "islam is a violent religion" they mean the fundamentalists. You know the ones who support sharia law for example? The kind of islam that dominates in middle east? Obviously nobody means the guys who don't care about their religion to a point of making a party with beer during their holy month.[/quote] It's like saying [quote]Veganism is lunatic[/quote] followed by [quote]dude I'm not saying all vegans are lunatics I'm saying Veganism is lunatic[/quote] and then [quote]When people say "Veganism is not compatible with western culture" or "Veganism is a biologically unsound mindset" they mean the fundamentalists. You know the ones who support animal farm bombings for example? The kind of Veganism that gets radical? Obviously nobody means the guys who don't care about their opinion to a point of making eating a wiener every week [/quote]

Nothing wrong with criticizing a religion that calls for the death of non-conformists. It's up to the people who follow said religion to decide whether to enact that idea, in the same way that Christianity calls for the deaths of homosexuals and women shouldn't teach or own property. Of course, the problem with all religion is that they refuse to change for the sake of the times we live in.

Yeah except it doesn't in almost all of the schools of Islam in the world except the extremist ones. Criticise extremism instead maybe.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50556315]So islam has no values or tenets then? No scriptures to follow?[/QUOTE] Uhhh...what's your point? Islam may have these values and tenets, but how they are interpreted and understood by the followers defines the ideologies. Hence why the sects are the source of the issue. Not the entire religion itself. Certain sects of Islam are quite steadfast that the true words of Allah allow them to be brutal motherfuckers in his name. But most of the dudes who live in developed countries? Nah, not really into those sects. For example, Scientology (despite being a total scam), if it were to have a schism and have sects that interpret it differently - some violent and forceful, others less so - would not be the root cause of the kidnappings and utter lunacy if it's only one of the sects doing it. It would be an issue with that sect interpreting the tenets in such a way.

[QUOTE=hexpunK;50556669]Uhhh...what's your point? Islam may have these values and tenets, but how they are interpreted and understood by the followers defines the ideologies. Hence why the sects are the source of the issue. Not the entire religion itself. Certain sects of Islam are quite steadfast that the true words of Allah allow them to be brutal motherfuckers in his name. But most of the dudes who live in developed countries? Nah, not really into those sects. For example, Scientology (despite being a total scam), if it were to have a schism and have sects that interpret it differently - some violent and forceful, others less so - would not be the root cause of the kidnappings and utter lunacy if it's only one of the sects doing it. It would be an issue with that sect interpreting the tenets in such a way.[/QUOTE] There is no point. He has the same mindset as the extremists about religions taking their scriptures to the letter.

[QUOTE=Killuah;50556599]I'm fairly tired of this "I am criticizing Islam the religion not Muslims" tactic of debating that in the end is just your justification to make generalizations about people. Also I thought you'd get that your tone is somewhat hostile when I reused that "try again" quote from you but apparently not.[/QUOTE] And I'm fairly tired of people not addressing people's arguments and instead making them up. That's exactly the reason why my tone was hostile towards the guy who I aimed "try again" at. [QUOTE=Killuah;50556599]In the end you are still drawing conclusions and using your rhetoric to smear all of the religion, it's most evident in posts like this[/QUOTE] Stop equating religion/ideology with people who identify as it's members. Holy fuck just try to understand what I'm saying. And if you're not willing to, why bother replying? There's an ideology. It has a list of virtues, values and tenets. Some good, some neutral some bad, some really fucking bad. There's a minority of people who say they follow that ideology but they ignore the bad parts, for which they are persecuted by the majority. Now when you oppose that ideology you oppose the actual thing, not the nicer version of it, which the minority uses. And because it's the majority, the majority who follows most of the ideology, you don't differentiate the majority. [QUOTE=Killuah;50556599]You don't need to actually write the word dangerous, I can read inbetween those two lines but I guess it's conveniet for you to say it like that.[/QUOTE] Are those the progressive mind reading skills kicking in that I've been hearing about? Is that the part where you tell me what I think and why that's wrong? [QUOTE=Killuah;50556599]Again, why not say fundies when you mean fundies, instead you post this BS to justify your own weird logic and rhetoric that allows you to indirectly criticize all of them[/QUOTE] Because they are not a vocal minority. That's the fucking point. The nice westernized muslims who are fine with gays and drinking beer during ramadan are or would be persecuted by the majority if they would go to middle east. [QUOTE=Killuah;50556599]It's like saying [I]Veganism is lunatic[/I] followed by [I]dude I'm not saying all vegans are lunatics I'm saying Veganism is lunatic[/I] and then [I]When people say "Veganism is not compatible with western culture" or "Veganism is a biologically unsound mindset" they mean the fundamentalists. You know the ones who support animal farm bombings for example? The kind of Veganism that gets radical? Obviously nobody means the guys who don't care about their opinion to a point of making eating a wiener every week[/I][/QUOTE] Sigh. There's an ideology called X and it has it's tenets V W Y and Z. And I say: "Ideology X is bigoted, because it's tenets V W are bigoted" "So, dude, I'm not saying all Xers are bigots, I'm saying those who don't pick and chose X's tenets are, the minority that already ignores V and W are cool". "When people say "X isn't compatible with western culture" they mean the people who actually fucking follow the fucking tenets of X, not the ones who already discarded the bad shit" [editline]20th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Killuah;50556851]There is no point. He has the same mindset as the extremists about religions taking their scriptures to the letter.[/QUOTE] Go go magic progressive mind reading skills.

What is bad about being progressive??? And why are you saying this? [editline]20th June 2016[/editline] [quote]There's an ideology. It has a list of virtues, values and tenets. Some good, some neutral some bad, some really fucking bad. There's a minority of people who say they follow that ideology but they ignore the bad parts, for which they are persecuted by the majority. Now when you oppose that ideology you oppose the actual thing, not the nicer version of it, which the minority uses. And because it's the majority, the majority who follows most of the ideology, you don't differentiate the majority.[/quote] What are the bad things? Are they really followed by the majority?

[QUOTE=hexpunK;50556669]Uhhh...what's your point? Islam may have these values and tenets, but how they are interpreted and understood by the followers defines the ideologies. Hence why the sects are the source of the issue. Not the entire religion itself. Certain sects of Islam are quite steadfast that the true words of Allah allow them to be brutal motherfuckers in his name. But most of the dudes who live in developed countries? Nah, not really into those sects. For example, Scientology (despite being a total scam), if it were to have a schism and have sects that interpret it differently - some violent and forceful, others less so - would not be the root cause of the kidnappings and utter lunacy if it's only one of the sects doing it. It would be an issue with that sect interpreting the tenets in such a way.[/QUOTE] Middle east isn't controlled by a small vocal minority of problematic sects. That's the point. The majority of muslims in the middle east are really conservative. More so than your conservative christians in western world.

How are fundies not the vocal minority? [editline]20th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Silly Sil;50556942]Middle east isn't controlled by a small vocal minority of problematic sects. That's the point. The majority of muslims in the middle east are really conservative. More so than your conservative christians in western world.[/QUOTE] You're from Poland you should really know that this does not hold true for a lot of cases. [editline]20th June 2016[/editline] [quote]Are those the progressive mind reading skills kicking in that I've been hearing about? Is that the part where you tell me what I think and why that's wrong? [/quote] What is this? Are you not saying that Islam is violent aka dangerous with [quote] Did you miss the part where muslim fundamentalists were beating up the more casual ones for not fasting during ramadan? Yeah man, islam sure isn't violent. Once you stop following most of it. [/quote] You acuse me of not adressing issues and then you come up with "progressive mindreading" ???

[QUOTE=Killuah;50556926]What is bad about being progressive??? And why are you saying this?[/QUOTE] I said there's something wrong with telling people what they think while ignoring what they said. Way to make another stupid strawman. [QUOTE=Killuah;50556926]What are the bad things? Are they really followed by the majority?[/QUOTE] What are the bad things in a hypothetical blank example? Are you fucking kidding me. [QUOTE=Killuah;50556945]How are fundies not the vocal minority?[/QUOTE] So the vocal minority is setting the laws and cultural norms for most of the muslim world? [QUOTE=Killuah;50556945]You're from Poland you should really know that this does not hold true for a lot of cases.[/QUOTE] I don't remember when was the last time the polish government tried to make it legal to imprison gay people. [QUOTE=Killuah;50556945]What is this? Are you not saying that Islam is violent aka dangerous with[/QUOTE] These are different things. Stop playing with and changing what I said. Just stop. [QUOTE=Killuah;50556945]You acuse me of not adressing issues and then you come up with "progressive mindreading" ???[/QUOTE] Because you're saying what I think and arguing with that while ignoring what I'm actually saying?

No, What are the conrete bad things. Since you're obviously illustrating your stance on Islam with this I thought you'd think that far

[QUOTE=Killuah;50556966]No, What are the conrete bad things. Since you're obviously illustrating your stance on Islam with this I thought you'd think that far[/QUOTE] How about blatant discrimination of women and homosexuals to a point where gay sex is illegal to start with? What about sharia law? No wait don't tell me, bad things happen to women and gays elsewhere so it's not part of middle eastern culture and has nothing to do with islam.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50557075]How about blatant discrimination of women and homosexuals to a point where gay sex is illegal to start with? What about sharia law? No wait don't tell me, bad things happen to women and gays elsewhere so it's not part of middle eastern culture and has nothing to do with islam.[/QUOTE] Are you exerting the mind reading skills now?

I still don't know what's wrong with what I'm saying. There's areas of the United States that is full of gang related activity. Minorities make up many of those gangs. Gangs are super plentiful. Drug dealers are super plentiful. Minorities are more likely to be arrested for these types of crime. Would it then be crossing the line to say "Well, obviously I'm just talking about the bad black people?" If so, why not? I'm legitimately asking not because I believe that nonsense, but because I think it's a logical parallel. Sure, you can continue to blow it off by saying race and religion aren't the same thing, but at that point it's not me that's missing the point, but you. The point [I]I'm[/I] trying to make is when there's a clear cut separation between fundamentalist crazies and progressive Muslims, you ought to make the distinction. It's better for argument, it's better for the inoffensive Muslims, it doesn't contribute to a universal Muslim stigma that's taking over the globe... it's just all around better. And you're seemingly against it because everyone else is too sensitive and should immediately understand what you're trying to address? Hate to be the one giving the newsflash, but no one knows you. This world is filled with tons of bigots. I talk to them every day. I'm not going to immediately assume that you have the best intentions when you're deciding when someone is Muslim and isn't Muslim in efforts for you to make being Muslim a negative connotation. You're trying to reserve the Muslim title for only the fundamentalists so you can make Islam your punching bag. That's bullshit, and I'd treat anyone that did the same for Christianity the same way. And remember, I'm absolutely down and eager to criticize Islam. I'll criticize the text, the fundamentalists, and all that stuff, but I'll make sure to be specific because there are different types of Muslims and to ignore that is to blatantly ignore the people making progress.

[QUOTE=Killuah;50557098]Are you exerting the mind reading skills now?[/QUOTE] Well no. That's the counterargument you guys made the last time I said middle east is superconservative. So you withdraw from that now? [QUOTE=wauterboi;50557129]I still don't know what's wrong with what I'm saying. There's areas of the United States that is full of gang related activity. Minorities make up many of those gangs. Gangs are super plentiful. Drug dealers are super plentiful. Minorities are more likely to be arrested for these types of crime. Would it then be crossing the line to say "Well, obviously I'm just talking about the bad black people?" If so, why not? I'm legitimately asking not because I believe that nonsense, but because I think it's a logical parallel. Sure, you can continue to blow it off by saying race and religion aren't the same thing, but at that point it's not me that's missing the point, but you. The point [I]I'm[/I] trying to make is when there's a clear cut separation between fundamentalist crazies and progressive Muslims, you ought to make the distinction. It's better for argument, it's better for the inoffensive Muslims, it doesn't contribute to a universal Muslim stigma that's taking over the globe... it's just all around better. And you're seemingly against it because everyone else is too sensitive and should immediately understand what you're trying to address? Hate to be the one giving the newsflash, but no one knows you. This world is filled with tons of bigots. I talk to them every day. I'm not going to immediately assume that you have the best intentions when you're deciding when someone is Muslim and isn't Muslim in efforts for you to make being Muslim a negative connotation. You're trying to reserve the Muslim title for only the fundamentalists so you can make Islam your punching bag. That's bullshit, and I'd treat anyone that did the same for Christianity the same way. And remember, I'm absolutely down and eager to criticize Islam. I'll criticize the text, the fundamentalists, and all that stuff, but I'll make sure to be specific because there are different types of Muslims and to ignore that is to blatantly ignore the people making progress.[/QUOTE] Race is incomparable with religion/ideology. It just doesn't work. Race is something you are born with, something you can't change, and most importantly it says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about your ideals and values, about who you are. Ideologies do. You have to subscribe to at least part of an ideology to be a member of it. And when someone is going to criticize the ideology he's going to criticize the actual thing, not the nice pick and chose version of it. Look I would sort of agree with your main point if most muslims wouldn't be as conservative as they are. Look at the laws and culture in middle east. The guys who are getting attacked in the vid are the minority not the majority. If it was the other way around, I wouldn't be arguing with you. But it's not. I wish it was.

Race doesn't exist

[QUOTE=Killuah;50557229]Race doesn't exist[/QUOTE] What is that supposed to mean? Unlike you I'm going to ask you what you actually think instead of telling you what you think and arguing with that. And are you not going to address gay and women's rights in middle east?

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50557246]What is that supposed to mean? Unlike you I'm going to ask you what you actually think instead of telling you what you think and arguing with that. And are you not going to address gay and women's rights in middle east?[/QUOTE] It means that Race does not exist by biologic scientific consensus

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;50557265]I wanted to write a post showing you how guilt that innocent muslims face by association with extremeists would be similar in the sense of wauterbois minority analogy but then realized since you cant even understand the difference of concepts of ideologies and religions why even try? It is quiet sad seeing a person seriously believing "Islam" is "an ideology"[/QUOTE] At least you've made yourself feel good by setting yourself on that very high horse with that post. Yeah I'm a fucking peasant beneath you, not worthy of you typing more than 2 paragraphs. What a joke. Get some sense of self-awareness. You couldn't be any more obvious. Now the dictionary says Ideology: a system of ideas and ideals, especially one which forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy. Religions seem like systems of ideas and ideals to me. But maybe I'm wrong. Your Grace can you indulge your humble servant and explain to a mere maggot how's that different? [editline]21st June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Killuah;50557301]It means that Race does not exist by biologic scientific consensus[/QUOTE] So you go and explain that to waterboi since I've used his terminology in my response to him. Or you can stop being disingenuous, pretending that me and waterboi weren't talking about color of skin and stop derailing the argument. Or (seemingly preferably for you) you can withdraw from previous arguments and focus on some semantics from now on.

I don't know man you came up with the whole regressive mind reading thing instead of discussing issues and now are saying that I "seemingly" prefer arguing semantics and you post stuff like [quote]No wait don't tell me, bad things happen to women and gays elsewhere so it's not part of middle eastern culture and has nothing to do with islam.[/quote] Your whole tone is pretty ... snide so I don't really feel like talking to you anymore tbh I mean what do you expect from shitposting like [quote]Your Grace can you indulge your humble servant and explain to a mere maggot how's that different?[/quote] [quote]you've made yourself feel good by setting yourself on that very high horse[/quote] That people concentrate on issues instead of the way you post?