2nd Amendment March - General

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;39220521]Yes? Tanks and so on seem to be important as well, and you're proposing that pretty much every able-bodied citizen should work against them. I find that unlikely.[/QUOTE] Disagree, I find it likely, if not certain. And tanks have been stopped by people armed with little more than molotov cocktails. IEDs famous for destroying US armor in Iraq can be made out of household appliances plentiful in the US. Yes we may picture tanks as indestructible war machines, but exploit their weaknesses and they are lumbering targets. [QUOTE=RobbL;39220560]Don't forget that the US is incredibly active in international diplomacy and very close to other world powers, not to mention the UN. I can't see Europe for example just sitting back and watching blatant abuse of the american people[/QUOTE] We're more prepared to fight foreign invasion than fighting our own people. European countries with small militaries would have no invasion route. Sea? US Navy owns the seas, we might even blockade our own country. Air? We were ready to take on the USSR. The early warning systems would sea an airlift coming before they made it to North America. The only country that would be in a position to help us would be Canada. I love our northern neighbors, and I'm sure they could help us but they certainly could not save us. and if you think the UN could do anything you are sorely mistaken, their HQ is in New York, the US is basically the largest source of UN funds, and the US holds a seat on the Security Council. And what if there is a press blackout and the internet is severed? Would Europe even know of our plight?

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;39220177]That's bullshit argument, and you know it. Murder and crime rates in general are social problems, but to say a lenient gun law isn't influencing it at all is just blindfolding yourself. Read through this: [URL]http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html[/URL] Straw purchases are a direct result of easy to buy firearms, and they're used in almost 30% of gun crime. if you read the article, it's also reasonable to assume that some gun dealers are also selling guns illegally on the side. At last there's the comparatively minor, but still relevant amount of guns that come from theft: 10%. All these three (quite common) ways for criminals to get guns, are spawned directly by the fact that guns are legal in the US. The problem isn't that the criminals can buy guns, it's that's criminals have friends that can. The fact that about 40-50% of the guns used in crime can be accounted for by these factors is troubling to say the least, and I think it shows that lenient gun laws most definitely have an impact on murder rates. Yes, they could use knives as well, but knives aren't nearly as effective. Do what you want with your country, and have as lenient gun laws as you want - it's really not for me to say whether it's worth it or not, but you can't put [I]all[/I] the blame on something else. Quite a bit, sure, but definitely not all.[/QUOTE] Of course the number of guns influences the gun crime. But it’s not the reason of it. When dealing with a problem you go after the source not after the symptoms. The only positive thing a gun ban does is making it harder to get a gun for people who don’t care about the law. It doesn’t make sense. Once you’ve banned the guns you still have to deal with the crime. You still have to address the real source of the problem. But you’re busy spending billions on fighting the black market for firearms. Since you know, once America bans guns it will become the biggest market for illegal guns. And since there are illegal immigrants in America (which btw can’t be disassembled into small parts and assembled once in the country). I doubt they will stop all the illegal guns from getting in. The point of my previous post was this: Under the ban, criminals will still get their guns (even if it’s gonna be harder), while people who actually obey the law, won’t. A coherent license system does pretty much the same thing as a gun ban would do, minus destroying entire industry and taking away guns from people who can be trusted with them.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;39220810]Of course the number of guns influences the gun crime. But it’s not the reason of it. When dealing with a problem you go after the source not after the symptoms. The only positive thing a gun ban does is making it harder to get a gun for people who don’t care about the law. It doesn’t make sense. Once you’ve banned the guns you still have to deal with the crime. You still have to address the real source of the problem. But you’re busy spending billions on fighting the black market for firearms. Since you know, once America bans guns it will become the biggest market for illegal guns. And since there are illegal immigrants in America (which btw can’t be disassembled into small parts and assembled once in the country). I doubt they will stop all the illegal guns from getting in. The point of my previous post was this: Under the ban, criminals will still get their guns (even if it’s gonna be harder), while people who actually obey the law, won’t. A coherent license system does pretty much the same thing as a gun ban would do, minus destroying entire industry and taking away guns from people who can be trusted with them.[/QUOTE] I didn't say a ban on guns were the course of action in the US - it's way too late, I simply argued that the availability of guns do have have a serious effect on the amount of guns used in crime. It simply seemed like you dismissed this in your original post. And I definitely think a more strict licensing system would solve many of the current problems - straw purchases for example. I don't think I mentioned a ban on guns in my post, only different grades of "leniency".

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;39221024]I didn't say a ban on guns were the course of action in the US - it's way too late, I simply argued that the availability of guns do have have a serious effect on the amount of guns used in crime. It simply seemed like you dismissed this in your original post. And I definitely think a more strict licensing system would solve many of the current problems - straw purchases for example. I don't think I mentioned a ban on guns in my post, only different grades of "leniency".[/QUOTE] Alright then, I replied to a post saying that banning guns is an effort to decrease gun kills/massacres and you disagreed with me so I assumed you have the same position. My bad. But I gotta say availability isn't that big of a factor in gun crime. Most of it is mentality. I live in a country with strict gun laws, almost nobody has a gun but I could get my hands on a handgun in few days or an ak47 with a bucket of bullets in a week or two (given the people I used to hang around with aren't dead/in jail). Gun crime is almost non existent here, even tho it's pretty easy to get a gun if you know someone doing shady businesses.

What you also need to realize is that the 2nd Amendment is also within a Country that has the world's most powerful military ever seen in the history of civilization. It also goes throughout the emphasis and world patterns of that no matter how long it takes, all Democracies will turn Facist.

[QUOTE=Keyblockor;39225729]What you also need to realize is that the 2nd Amendment is also within a Country that has the world's most powerful military ever seen in the history of civilization. It also goes throughout the emphasis and world patterns of that no matter how long it takes, all Democracies will turn Facist.[/QUOTE] I'm willing to bet that a large portion of that military would the defect if the government goes tyrannical.

[QUOTE=jptalbert;39220417]Banning assault weapons will almost only ban them from good people buying them legitimately. If some thug wants one he can buy one off of the black market or an illegal dealer easy.[/QUOTE] i know more than one person who could sell me a "hot" gun for 50-100 a pop. [editline]15th January 2013[/editline] "hot" meaning completely illegal by any stretch of the imagination.

[QUOTE=Keyblockor;39225729]What you also need to realize is that the 2nd Amendment is also within a Country that has the world's most powerful military ever seen in the history of civilization. It also goes throughout the emphasis and world patterns of that no matter how long it takes, all Democracies will turn Facist.[/QUOTE] A country doesn't automatically change from one ideology to another - you'd have to have some social and economic conditions in the country that makes a radical change possible. If you really think that "it's just something that happens", you're wrong. Take a look at every democracy to facist country ever, and you'll find that they have many of the same symptoms. [editline]15th January 2013[/editline] What you're describing is essentially anacyclosis: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anacyclosis[/url]

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;39226267]A country doesn't automatically change from one ideology to another - you'd have to have some social and economic conditions in the country that makes a radical change possible. If you really think that "it's just something that happens", you're wrong. Take a look at every democracy to facist country ever, and you'll find that they have many of the same symptoms. [editline]15th January 2013[/editline] What you're describing is essentially anacyclosis: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anacyclosis[/url][/QUOTE] The USA is also far bigger than any country in Europe and has a different mindset about guns and their regulation. With the USA being bigger and having a higher population it'll be hard to keep track of outlawing assault weapons. Assault weapons also made their way into Sweden a week back if I recall in a Jewelry heist. To this aswell, Mexico whom is embroiled in major cartel conflicts is directly to the south, outlawing guns will only allow them to be able to spread their foothold into Southern USA as Criminals will start using their services to buy said Assault rifles.

[QUOTE=Keyblockor;39226891]The USA is also far bigger than any country in Europe and has a different mindset about guns and their regulation. With the USA being bigger and having a higher population it'll be hard to keep track of outlawing assault weapons. Assault weapons also made their way into Sweden a week back if I recall in a Jewelry heist. To this aswell, Mexico whom is embroiled in major cartel conflicts is directly to the south, outlawing guns will only allow them to be able to spread their foothold into Southern USA as Criminals will start using their services to buy said Assault rifles.[/QUOTE] This is what I responded to: [Quote=keyblockor]It also goes throughout the emphasis and world patterns of that no matter how long it takes, all Democracies will turn Facist.[/quote] And I don't think removing the 2nd amendment would make a difference to the cartels, they're not fighting civilians anyway. I can see lots of complications regarding a ban, but I don't think your scenario is likely in any way. And yep, guns are used over here as well. It's just very uncommon compared to the US.

[QUOTE=Disotrtion;39220796] We're more prepared to fight foreign invasion than fighting our own people. European countries with small militaries would have no invasion route. Sea? US Navy owns the seas, we might even blockade our own country. Air? We were ready to take on the USSR. The early warning systems would sea an airlift coming before they made it to North America. The only country that would be in a position to help us would be Canada. I love our northern neighbors, and I'm sure they could help us but they certainly could not save us. and if you think the UN could do anything you are sorely mistaken, their HQ is in New York, the US is basically the largest source of UN funds, and the US holds a seat on the Security Council. And what if there is a press blackout and the internet is severed? Would Europe even know of our plight?[/QUOTE] You really think the US gov would risk some sort of war on two fronts (and fucking up their country for the long term) against their own people and allied nations just to satisfy the megalomania of a few politicians? [QUOTE]And what if there is a press blackout and the internet is severed? Would Europe even know of our plight?[/QUOTE] And yes, obviously

[QUOTE=jptalbert;39220417]Banning assault weapons will almost only ban them from good people buying them legitimately. If some thug wants one he can buy one off of the black market or an illegal dealer easy.[/QUOTE] Are you genuinely trying to say it would be as easy to find a black market rifle in say the UK as in the US? It's not like criminals can just apparate illegal weapons out of thin air, they have to either enter the black market via legal ownership or be smuggled into the country, which are both things which tend to harder to do in countries with stricter gun laws.

[QUOTE=ThisGuy0;39229830]Are you genuinely trying to say it would be as easy to find a black market rifle in say the UK as in the US? It's not like criminals can just apparate illegal weapons out of thin air, they have to either enter the black market via legal ownership or be smuggled into the country, which are both things which tend to harder to do in countries with stricter gun laws.[/QUOTE] Not as easy but easy enough. And how do you expect to stop the illegal weapons being smuggled into the entire country if there are illegal immigrants in there (who btw can't be disassembled into small parts and assembled once within the borders). And there are illegal drugs in the most secure american prisons. They can't keep drugs from being smuggled into a concrete box with guards and bars in every possible doorway, how do you expect to stop illegal guns from being smuggled into the country?