Give ShivanCommander a break hes new here. Hopefully he will get better at arguing and hopefully be less ignorant when he argues.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;29075752]Congratulations. You invalidated everything you just said and will now be considered a troll.
Still waiting for a actual response, without stupidity, with real sources and statistics proving that national healthcare is the devil itself and will cause your poor, poor money to suddenly vaporize.
Oh wait, you don't have one.[/QUOTE]
The picture is a source, see the university area?
[QUOTE=ShivanCommander;29075286]The top 12 universities in the world are all in the United States.
[img_thumb]http://images.nsfwposters.com/images/rofl/myspace/1218993222816.jpg.myspace.jpg[/img_thumb][/quote]
And India has the highest University turn out rate in the world
What's your point?
[QUOTE=s0beit;29075579]They celebrate freedom for everyone, people who run corporations just factor into that. There is no special favoritism like there is today and there are no special freedoms like there are today.
People are created equal and treated as equal under the government.
Most people don't really understand that this would mean disestablishing anti-competition laws such as intellectual property rights and subsidies as well as any type of tax favoritism.[/QUOTE]
Neoliberal ideas aren't about equality or justice! They're economic values, through and through. Liberalism/libertarianism(of the left or right side of the spectrum)=/=neoliberalism.
[i]I[/i] believe in liberal values (of a certain type), whereas I'm against neoliberalism. You can't argue neoliberalism isn't necessarily an advocate of free market (and hence allowing corporations to do what they want), because that's exactly what they are.
[QUOTE=ShivanCommander;29075814]The picture is a source, see the university area?[/QUOTE]
Memes are not a source. Even if they include an image from Wikipedia, unless you provided exactly where that information came from and when it was gathered/ accessed, then it is invalid. Do you not understand anything about citing sources?
Plus you still haven't replied properly to any of the real arguments that have floored yours multiple times over.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;29075789]Give ShivanCommander a break hes new here. Hopefully he will get better at arguing and hopefully be less ignorant when he argues.[/QUOTE]
Still doesn't allow him to be a jackass when listening to people's opinions.
Seems like half of America doesn't understand that the point of voting is to vote for who will give them a better country, not to vote for who will give them a better deal.
[QUOTE=codemaster85;29075922]Still doesn't allow him to be a jackass when listening to people's opinions.[/QUOTE]
He acts like this is the first time he has ever talked to liberals (which it might be) so he automatically thinks there commie evil stupid tree hugers. As time goes on he hopefully will change or become the next glaber. Only time will tell.
[QUOTE=ShivanCommander;29075814]The picture is a source, see the university area?[/QUOTE]
Regardless of that, you still haven't responded to the people asking you how exactly nationalized healthcare is bad, with sources cited when you make claims like "80% rise in patient death rate" or something similar.
OH, lets have fun with this picture:
> Moon landing: Two words - Yuri Gagargin
> Fighter Jet: An expansive fighter jet used to kill insurgents in the desert. I'm sure you're proud. Ironically created by the military industrial complex, something Libertarians SHOULD be against.
> Tiger Woods:
[B]Tiger:[/B] do you have a boy friend (8:45 p.m.)
[B]Jaimee:[/B] I don't even have someone I am dating ... no ... u can be my boyfriend ;)
[B]Tiger:[/B] then I am
> Michael Phelps: [url]http://www.olympic.org/athletes[/url] America ain't the only place boyo
> Statue of Liberty: A French gift.
> Bell-lab: I too like companies that charge way too much for services.
> Naked lady: Europe has nude women too. And they can walk on beaches nude as well. So take that.
> D-Day: A military operation including the Canadians, British and Americans
> Coke: I'll give you that
> Google: Google ruined youtube so fuck that
[editline]9th April 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=ShivanCommander;29075814]The picture is a source, see the university area?[/QUOTE]
Still waiting for you to respond to my long post.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;29075976]He acts like this is the first time he has ever talked to liberals (which it might be) so he automatically thinks there commie evil stupid tree hugers. As time goes on he hopefully will change or become the next glaber. Only time will tell.[/QUOTE]
Shit, almost all people on his side of politics act like Liberals are some kind of demoic being. The fact they were dumb enough to align themselves, and proclaim themselves as a "x" makes them dumb enough in the first place. You can easily get away with saying "Oh, I have liberal/ conservative views". But saying "Oh, I [B]am[/B] a liberal/ conservative" makes you a god damn moron.
[QUOTE=ShivanCommander;29075286]The top 12 universities in the world are all in the United States.
[/QUOTE]
Look at the cost of those 12 universities and tell me with a straight face that they are accessible to the working class
This is what libertarianism is
Privileges for the elite, nothing for anyone else
[QUOTE=Zeke129;29076142]Look at the cost of those 12 universities and tell me with a straight face that they are accessible to the working class
This is what libertarianism is
Privileges for the elite, nothing for anyone else[/QUOTE]
You should go back and read my replies before spouting more blatant ignorance.
You can't use universities or the economics of the USA today, right now, as a basis for arguing against conservative libertarianism since it isn't in practice. That is the most giant fucking hole in your argument.
Likewise, you can't use bullshit straw man arguments and imaginary scenarios to further your points (what point you're trying to make while misrepresenting people's ideology is, I'll never know).
It's fairly hard for you to make any sort of decent argument against conservative libertarianism since this topic has taught me you don't know a single thing about it.
[QUOTE=s0beit;29076339]You should go back and read my replies before spouting more blatant ignorance.
You can't use universities or the economics of the USA today, right now, as a basis for arguing against conservative libertarianism since it isn't in practice. That is the most giant fucking hole in your argument.
Likewise, you can't use bullshit straw man arguments and imaginary scenarios to further your points (what point you're trying to make while misrepresenting people's ideology is, I'll never know).
It's fairly hard for you to make any sort of decent argument against conservative libertarianism since this topic has taught me you don't know a single thing about it.[/QUOTE]
No matter what he said about libertarianism or not, it still makes a fair point against Shivan's argument.
[QUOTE=s0beit;29076339]You should go back and read my replies before spouting more blatant ignorance.
You can't use universities or the economics of the USA today, right now, as a basis for arguing against conservative libertarianism since it isn't in practice. That is the most giant fucking hole in your argument.
Likewise, you can't use bullshit straw man arguments and imaginary scenarios to further your points (what point you're trying to make while misrepresenting people's ideology is, I'll never know).
It's fairly hard for you to make any sort of decent argument against conservative libertarianism since this topic has taught me you don't know a single thing about it.[/QUOTE]
Well then perhaps you can explain how the poor would have decent access to healthcare and university in a Libertarian society?
[QUOTE=s0beit;29076339]
You can't use universities or the economics of the USA today, right now, as a basis for arguing against conservative libertarianism since it isn't in practice. That is the most giant fucking hole in your argument.
[/QUOTE]
So you basically just admitted that conservative libertarianism is incompatible with current American society.
Thank you, that's exactly what I've been saying this whole time.
"I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. [b]I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy [i]in[/i] poverty, but leading or driving them [I]out[/I] of it.[/b] In my youth I travelled much, and I observed in different countries, that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, [b]the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.[/b]"
[b]- Benjamin Franklin[/b]
[QUOTE=ShivanCommander;29075286]The top 12 universities in the world are all in the United States.
[img_thumb]http://images.nsfwposters.com/images/rofl/myspace/1218993222816.jpg.myspace.jpg[/img_thumb]
[editline]9th April 2011[/editline]
You obviously don't know too much about libertarianism. Look at their party platform.[/QUOTE]
You lose all credibility when you use a demotivational for facts instead of just looking up uni rankings.
[QUOTE=torero;29076464]No matter what he said about libertarianism or not, it still makes a fair point against Shivan's argument.[/QUOTE]
No, not really. ShivanCommander is just not developed and probably doesn't know a lot about the situation at hand here. Granted, i basically called him incapable of defending his position (and he is) and it is sort of his fault, Zeke should still know better. If he wants to lower himself to his level to win an argument against him then that is just a monumental failure.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;29076518]Well then perhaps you can explain how the poor would have decent access to healthcare and university in a Libertarian society?[/QUOTE]
Well, lets start a while ago. First of all, taking the price point of medical cost today as an example of how such a system is impossible, is ridiculous. There was a time where healthcare was easily affordable (and no, I'm not just talking about the wild west, although in the wild west it was actually affordable, people died from easily curable diseases back then because we didn't know shit about science or the human body. Plenty of people saw doctors, to combat Zeke's argument earlier) i could go on to explain it, but hey, somebody already did for me and saved me a ton of time.
[url]http://johnjaymyers.com/blog/?p=53[/url]
You can skip down to the "Specific Proposals" part if you like.
[editline]e[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zeke129;29076562]So you basically just admitted that conservative libertarianism is incompatible with current American society.
Thank you, that's exactly what I've been saying this whole time.[/QUOTE]
American society as it is today? [b]absolutely[/b].
We shouldn't be an empire like we are, we shouldn't be funding universities, military occupation or corporations like we are and the whole of American culture would change deeply. The libertarian ideal doesn't represent the America of today at all, to think it does or ever did is the fault of your own ignorance.
America, as you well know, shouldn't be a beacon for the world. It shouldn't consume a gigantic portion of the world's resources and it shouldn't tell other countries what to do at the risk of being blown the fuck up. Society now, is absolutely [b]nothing[/b] like what the libertarian ideal would be.
Even socialist libertarians would admit that. I don't think any political ideology accurately depicts the situation going on in America right now.
[QUOTE=Shooter;29076662]"I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. [b]I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them [I]out[/I] of it.[/b] In my youth I travelled much, and I observed in different countries, that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, [b]the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.[/b]"
[b]- Benjamin Franklin[/b][/QUOTE]
A quote made during a time when you actually could "pick yourself up by the bootstraps" if you worked hard enough. Doesn't apply anymore though, there are no prospects for someone who is homeless, poor, and without any kind of education.
[QUOTE=ShivanCommander;29072253]Then again, why not allow gang colors? The people who join gangs are the kind of people who nobody would care if they died anyway.[/QUOTE]
I don't like your attitude towards people dying, but we obviously just disagree on that.
Gang colours might cause violence on the school premises, which would hurt the school's image and make the other students feel unsafe.
[QUOTE=Shooter;29076662]"I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. [b]I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy [i]in[/i] poverty, but leading or driving them [I]out[/I] of it.[/b] In my youth I travelled much, and I observed in different countries, that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, [b]the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.[/b]"
[b]- Benjamin Franklin[/b][/QUOTE]
I don't give one shit if Benjamin Franklin said it, that is just dumb, and hasn't been true in reality. In Scandinavian countries where social services are a big part of society, poverty isn't rampant, the poor aren't getting poorer, and people enjoy a relatively nice standard of living.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;29076718]A quote made during a time when you actually could "pick yourself up by the bootstraps" if you worked hard enough. Doesn't apply anymore though, there are no prospects for someone who is homeless, poor, and without any kind of education.[/QUOTE]
Please elaborate.
[QUOTE=Shooter;29076744]Please elaborate.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure how I can
Franklin's time was different, the job market was nowhere near as competitive
Back then if you had no schooling you could just show up at a farm or a mine and get a job, these days you need at least high school for both of those
There are no jobs today for someone who has nothing, you either need an education, money, or connections.
That's true. Franklin is a great person in American history but as the society changes his views become more and more irrelevant.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;29076718]A quote made during a time when you actually could "pick yourself up by the bootstraps" if you worked hard enough. Doesn't apply anymore though, there are no prospects for someone who is homeless, poor, and without any kind of education.[/QUOTE]
And why isn't it, really?
I mean this: Can you articulate why such a situation is impossible to us all, so we know, not from the socialist perspective but i mean as a critique on society as it exists in America today. Not what could fix it, i just want to know why it is impossible to pick yourself up.
I'll make it clear: I'm not arguing with you, i agree, today it is fairly hard to pick yourself up and get a leg up. i just want to see how your logic works.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;29076736]I don't give one shit if Benjamin Franklin said it, that is just dumb, and hasn't been true in reality. In Scandinavian countries where social services are a big part of society, poverty isn't rampant, the poor aren't getting poorer, and people enjoy a relatively nice standard of living.[/QUOTE]
thats because peoples moral values on social services in Scandinavia are much better than that of americans.
they simply see it as a "pick me up" to improve their hardships, while a majority of americans use it to fashion a permanent lifestyle out of it.
please, dont try to compare two countries with different attitudes on the role of the central government in their lives.
keep in mind, i fall deeply within the libertarian end of the political spectrum.
[QUOTE=s0beit;29076716]we shouldn't be funding universities[/QUOTE]
Funded in what way?
In response to that blog:
[quote]- Allow people to purchase insurance anywhere giving consumers many more health care options. This measure alone will make health insurance available to so many more people.
- Phase out Medicare and Medicaid over 20 years. They are bankrupt institutions that have bankrupted this country. Encourage buyouts, right now.[/quote]
This is ridiculous and needlessly convoluted. If people are really that poor, they can't afford insurance in the first place, and making similar options elsewhere available won't help. Why would insurance companies lower their prices anyway? What incentive could they have then that they don't have now? Medicare and Medicaid are also good things because those actually do make healthcare more available to those who need it and cannot afford it.
This blog is also pretty ridiculous with this sort of thing:
[quote]The more government gets involved in health care, the more we head towards potentially limitless price increases. Do we currently have unlimited pricing for fast food or candy bars? No, because the free market offers a multitude of choices. But since government is involved in health care, it now uses the problems it created as justification for even more intervention.[/quote]
Potentially limitless price increases? How? What? The entire point of Socialized healthcare is that it's "free" and paid for by taxes. Single-person prices couldn't possible go up because there are none, sans cosmetic procedures and the like. As for the last sentence, is that true anywhere else? I thought not.
And then this:
[quote]The only reason the government wants to be involved in health care is because they want to maintain high drug prices, high insurance prices, and high care prices for their lobbyist friends. It also gives them a reason to justify their existence. Most problems the government tries to solve, are problems it created.[/quote]
I don't even know how you took this seriously. Government only wants to be in health care to maintain high drug and insurance prices? The entire reason people argue for socialized healthcare today is because of how high insurance prices are under privatized rule.
and then this:
[quote]The people in need, the ones who absolutely cannot afford it, are few enough, that just the donations of doctors and charity would cover them.[/quote]
Hahaha, oh wow. Why would the doctors donate? They have no reason to do so, except out the kindness of their own heart. If this guy [B]honestly[/B] believes that the poor are so few that a few donations would cover them, he's delusional.
[quote]The question is, by what means do you want to establish affordable healthcare? Do you want to use the magical fairy dust method, which somehow brings about great service and better care, covers more people, and doesn’t cost a dime? Or, do you want to endorse the only method of reducing costs that has ever worked in the real world, the free market?[/quote]
Okay, I really have to address this last sentence. THE ONLY METHOD THAT HAS EVER WORKED IS THE FREE MARKET? You have got to be kidding me. This guy makes some good points in the specific proposals section, but the rest is an absolute joke. I'm not saying these things invalidate your source's credibility, but it seriously calls it into question.
[editline]9th April 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=alucard_extreme;29076930]thats because peoples moral values on social services in Scandinavia are much better than that of americans.
they simply see it as a "pick me up" to improve their hardships, while a majority of americans use it to fashion a permanent lifestyle out of it.
please, dont try to compare two countries with different attitudes on the role of the central government in their lives.
keep in mind, i fall deeply within the libertarian end of the political spectrum.[/QUOTE]
Source? Most Americans use social services as a permanent lifestyle crutch? How do you know this exactly?
People who inherit too much do not deserve to keep it.
By this I refer to people like the aristocracy, and I hate having been descended from one of the inbred backwards aristocrats from Tsarist Russia.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;29076963]
I don't even know how you took this seriously. Government only wants to be in health care to maintain high drug and insurance prices?[/quote]
for an [b]elitist oligarch agenda[/b]. they are in power for a very evident reason. read some more books, please
[quote]Source? Most Americans use social services as a permanent lifestyle crutch? How do you know this exactly?[/QUOTE]
as if you expect me to spend my night looking up a source just for you, im not going to waste my time.
this point* comes from acquired knowledge through many readings over a vast period of time and many social interactions with various people; something you are too antisocial and lazy to accomplish which is evident in your rhetoric.
im sure youre understanding enough to see my point, right?
[editline]9th April 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;29077030]People who inherit too much do not deserve to keep it.[/QUOTE]
of the very few taxes i would support, inheritance taxes are one of them.
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