[QUOTE=ButtsexV17;28983645]maybe we're raised differently but over here in the american south where nobody has a penny to spare, we don't particularly enjoy paying for other peoples problems, and everyone who's not a criminal anyway is too proud to accept the help of others unless they'll die without it.[/QUOTE]
[url=http://healthinsurance.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=healthinsurance&cdn=health&tm=27&f=00&tt=2&bt=0&bts=0&st=31&zu=http%3A//www.ahipresearch.org/pdfs/2009IndividualMarketSurveyFinalReport.pdf]The average American pays ~$3,000 a year in health insurance premiums.[/url] Anyone who just filed their taxes in a country with universal coverage, look at how much you were just taxed this week (if you get taxed April 1st). See what percent of last year's collected tax funds were put toward the medical system and apply that percentage to how much you just paid in taxes.
I basically paid $68. So I actually saved money compared to the average American, and helped other people in the process. That money went toward buying new equipment for more available and up-to-date treatment, building new facilities to accommodate the growing population, and paying doctors so they can live comfortably. They live really comfortably by the way.
[quote][url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada#Physicians_and_medical_organization]Family physicians in Canada make an average of $202,000
Alberta has the highest average salary of around $230,000
Quebec has the lowest average annual salary at $165,000[/url][/quote]
It's a shame the American system leeches greedy doctors from everyone, including developing countries :golfclap:
If it didn't, we wouldn't have the "huge" doctor shortages.
What's better?
Free, high quality daycare, so both sexes can work without worry.
Free heathcare
High quality, low priced public transport
Low crime rate
Prisons that rehabilitate rather than punish
The best doctors in the world, with the best equipment
50% tax rate. Sweden.
Or:
37th in healthcare
Charity/no daycare
Patchy quality hospitals
Wealthy-first system
40 million without healthcare insurance
High crime rate
Low tax rate, America.
[quote]best of liberalism (gay rights, no censorship, [b]no school uniforms[/b], locally run school boards, more personal freedoms, etc.)[/quote]
Glad to see you're tackling the real issues.
[QUOTE=Latency;28986862]
It's a shame the American system leeches greedy doctors from everyone, including developing countries :golfclap:
If it didn't, we wouldn't have the "huge" doctor shortages.[/QUOTE]
Your right, the government should control healthcare in all counties,
Then there will be nowhere for doctors to run for freedom.
[QUOTE=Novistador;28987830]Your right, the government should control healthcare in all counties,
Then there will be nowhere for doctors to run for freedom.[/QUOTE]
are we talking about doctors or POWs in WW2 germany
[QUOTE=Novistador;28985404]I think your a smart guy
So why don't you display that smartness by making legitimate arguments instead of that bullshit "hurr libertarians want the political system of somalia" bullshit.
That claim is false, and I'm sure you know its false, do you really think your doing anything positive for your cause by intentionally dealing in strawmen and false exaggerations, presumably in the hope that most of the people reading your statements will be too stupid to tell the difference and form their opinion entirely on your negative tone.[/QUOTE]
The old American west - a legitimate example of libertarianism.
Modern Somalia - an extreme example of libertarianism.
You'd be right in jumping on my post if Somalia was the only thing I mentioned but it wasn't, and you seem to be ignoring that.
[QUOTE=ShivanCommander;28983843]Most of the people online right now are stupid liberal British teenagers, who don't know a thing about politics, let alone American politics. Let's just wait for the Americans to all get home from work and school.[/QUOTE]
I'm American, and you sound pretty irrational right now.
You have your right to your opinion and if you don't like socialized healthcare so be it. I think people are being a little harsh, just remember that when you need help, you're being a hypocrite when taking it.
Second, as far as I know, Libertarians are against government funded education, so fuck off. I'm going to school to be a teacher. :v:
oh hey look a post your political opinion thread
[QUOTE=tomcat13;28988776]oh hey look a post your political opinion thread[/QUOTE]
Let the boxes fly. :v:
In the US, a Libertarian is an Atheist Republican.
I'm not going to debate on the stupidity of this ideology, but for OP: way to make a name for yourself on FP.
[QUOTE=Nahyan;28988821]In the US, a Libertarian is an Atheist Republican.
I'm not going to debate on the stupidity of this ideology, but for OP: way to make a name for yourself on FP.[/QUOTE]
silly u everyone knows libertarian is somalia in the wild west
Never was a big fan of public healthcare, always thought if you were on it you should pay the taxes for it, otherwise you would just buy into private healthcare without paying healthcare taxes, I mean you're not using it, why should you need to pay for it?. Seems like it would work to me but I'm sure you guys have a hundred and one reasons it's awful, so tell them to me.
[QUOTE=evilweazel;28988973]Never was a big fan of public healthcare, always thought if you were on it you should pay the taxes for it, otherwise you would just buy into private healthcare. Seems like it would work to me but I'm sure you guys have a hundred and one reasons it's awful, so tell them to me.[/QUOTE]
evil capitalist pig dog oppressors
OP is a troll or a hilarious joke. No one can seriously believe the crap hes spouting I refuse to believe it.
You need surgery? Can't afford it?! Well get out and work for the money whilst your heart is failing you lazy no good scavenger!
[QUOTE=Explosions;28988991]evil capitalist pig dog oppressors[/QUOTE]
It's all so clear now how could I have been so ignorant before.
[QUOTE=Explosions;28988893]silly u everyone knows libertarian is somalia in the wild west[/QUOTE]
I'm not seeing why the old west isn't a good example
- Government not involved in the lives of citizens whatsoever, only maintains a military and handles immigration
- Private healthcare
- Private security forces
- No social services
If you think I'm saying libertarianism = riding around on your horse with a six-shooter you're not reading into my posts enough
[QUOTE=Zeke129;28988569]The old American west - a legitimate example of libertarianism.
Modern Somalia - an extreme example of libertarianism.
You'd be right in jumping on my post if Somalia was the only thing I mentioned but it wasn't, and you seem to be ignoring that.[/QUOTE]
I'm not a libertarian, but I sympathize with them.
And I can say with great confidence that most of them are not Anarchists,
Anarchists are Anarchists, Libertarians are Libertarians, although there is some overlap (there are some anarcho-capitalists, and so called anarcho-libertarian-socialists) most Libertarians do not advocate the dismantlement of the state.
Although some Libertarians are a bit too anti-government and tend to jump to blaming the government as the cause of all evil, what sets Libertarianism apart from Anarchism is that Libertarians support the state, a state which has a a prime priority protecting its citizens with a strong police force, and court system.
Some Libertarians even go so far as to call themselves Minarchists in order to emphasize that they do not advocate no government, but a limited government.
A society without police or laws or courts is not a Libertarian ideal, its an Anarchist one, those philosophies are not identical.
Now go an find some real complaints against libertarianism instead of trying to equivocate it with anarchy or civil war.
[QUOTE=Novistador;28989064]
Now go an find some real complaints against libertarianism[/QUOTE]
Since you've decided to dilute what libertarianism actually is in an attempt to win the argument, okay. I'll oblige:
No healthcare unless you're well-off
No government enforcement of food, product, and workplace safety
"Majority rules" on civil rights issues such as gay marriage and racial equality
[QUOTE=Greaterbeing;28983525]uh i agree with him. i think that its far too late for the US to adopt universal or partially free healthcare.
i'm just saying that american politics have been completely warped since the 1980s
statistics and facts are taken hugely out of context. heck, often enough its just pure lies or completely misleading.[/QUOTE]
Guess why! FOX!
Well what is to stop people from paying proper wages when they dont have to? And what is stopping people from owning slaves? We see this in countries where there are little to no laws against it so what is to stop people from doing it?
[QUOTE=Zeke129;28989116]Since you've decided to dilute what libertarianism actually is in an attempt to win the argument, okay. I'll oblige:
No healthcare unless you're well-off
No government enforcement of food, product, and workplace safety
"Majority rules" on civil rights issues such as gay marriage and racial equality[/QUOTE]
How the hell am I in any way attempting to dilute the meaning of Libertarianism by pointing out that Somalia is not an example of it.
Thats anarchy, theres no police, the government is useless, theres no laws, its a state of perpetual civil war.
Most Libertarians advocate a GOVERNMENT which acts only to enforce laws and protect the population through a military, courts, and police.
Libertarianism doesn't mean no laws, it doesn't mean no government, it doesn't mean police(or private police, thats the ANARCHO-capitalists).
In this exchange if anyone is attempting to say Libertarianism is something its not its you.
[editline]4th April 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;28989190]Well what is to stop people from paying proper wages when they dont have to? And what is stopping people from owning slaves? We see this in countries where there are little to no laws against it so what is to stop people from doing it?[/QUOTE]
The police are what are to stop you from owning slaves.
[QUOTE=Novistador;28989249]The police are what are to stop you from owning slaves.[/QUOTE]
Why if there is no laws against it?
[QUOTE=SNNS-SEAN;28985912]If you want freedom, join the Worker's Party of Korea.
[img_thumb]http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_la2uz4iHBx1qap9gno1_500.png[/img_thumb][/QUOTE]
Dammit, why do people keep randomly rating me with no reason whatsoever? :argh:
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;28989306]Why if there is no laws against it?[/QUOTE]
Then theres no law for it,
what are you trying to get at here you could sit around all day and ask "what if there was no law against shooting people, what if there was no law against rape" about any political system or ideology.
Libertarianism isn't a limited set of fixed belifes, its an adjective used to describe certain kinds of ideologies that usually are described as siding with liberals on social issues (legalization of drugs, pro gay marriage, pro choice), but conservatives on financial issues (little to no social programs, a flat tax, low taxes, or no taxes, little regulation of industry),
There is however a lot of variation within those bounds, for example Ron Paul's opposition to abortion, and constant ranting against the U.S military.
If theres anywhere to criticize Libertarianism its there, the fact that its such a loose term that can let people opposed to abortion, or religiously motivated sneak in, and that they will sometimes blame the government for everything, even if it was operating within its legitimate bounds (police, courts, etc)
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sk5Z-Xqe6ww[/media]
[editline]4th April 2011[/editline]
watch video, be enlightened OP
and also watch this video for extra world knowledge, that is if your libertarian mind can bear hearing a viewpoint actually different from your own that is well researched and well thought out.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w&t=2h21m00s[/media]
[QUOTE=Novistador;28989549]Then theres no law for it,
what are you trying to get at here you could sit around all day and ask "what if there was no law against shooting people,[/QUOTE]
My point is that many libertarians want to take away all laws or at least ones for workers. Without them there would be nothing stopping slavery or low pay and I would say that that is bad.
[QUOTE=ShivanCommander;28983340]It's failed everywhere it was tried. It makes everyone pay higher taxes. It lowers the quality of healthcare. It makes longer waiting lines. It eliminates people's ability to choose their own healthcare plans and their own doctors. It means lesser healthcare for the elderly. It makes things even easier on people who don't work and skim off government. There is absolutely no desire for anyone to be a doctor. Oh and don't forget that ever since England adopted universal healthcare, patient deaths due to doctor negligence have risen nearly 80% more than they were before.
This is America, if you need a surgery, you get a job and you work for a living like a normal person, don't skim off government programs that let you sit on your ass for 5 years, or wait, even more years now, since they extended unemployment. For every one person who is legitimately bad off and incapable of rational thought and/or working, there are a thousand people who abuse the system for their own personal gain and take money off of social security. Plus it's not like people don't all get healthcare when they need it, liberal propaganda has people believing that if you go into an emergency room you won't get treated simply because you're not "super rich" which is a complete and utter lie. They are required to treat you, it doesn't matter how much money you have.
Why should the government decide what healthcare I get? Why should the government decide who my doctor is? It shouldn't, but that's what people want. People are getting lazy and stupid, they want the government to do everything for them, since they're too lazy to actually get off their ass and do something like they're supposed to. If anyone remembers during the 2008 election, reporters were asking random people off the street why they were voting for who they were voting for, and the number one answer for people who voted for Obama (a Democrat), was that he would "take care of them" and "pay off their debt for them" because they were too fucking stupid to pay off their own debt, in fact, they were stupid enough to get in debt to begin with by purchasing things they don't need on credit.[/QUOTE]
Spoken like a true American.
I, however, thoroughly enjoy my healthcare.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;28989642]My point is that many libertarians want to take away all laws or at least ones for workers. Without them there would be nothing stopping slavery or low pay and I would say that that is bad.[/QUOTE]
If there is a Libertarian out there advocating the legalization of slavery there not a Libertarian, their an Authoritarian, thats the complete polar opposite of Libertarianism and has nothing to do with it.
Workers "rights" is another issue, most Libertarians would be for getting rid of any form of entitlement right, and laws that prevent striking workers being fired, or forcing people to join a union to practice a trade, or forcing industry to deal with unions, minimum wage etc.
[QUOTE=Novistador;28989549]constant ranting against the U.S military. [/QUOTE]
Oh I bet you just hate that don't you
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