[quote]Somebody has to say the obvious: that the Black community is a vast minority and they need to play by majority rules. I'm not just going to let a tiny group change the definitions of basic words that have been in use for millenia because it hurts their feelings. They need to accept that they are something different[/quote]
What did me editing this prove? It proves that the way you look at us, at us Trans, is the same way people looked at Blacks in the past.
[editline]28th February 2016[/editline]
Probably not the best comparison but still tho.
[QUOTE=Fourm Shark;49827782]Why do people feel the need to label themselves as transgender[/QUOTE]
I've heard transpeople wonder the same thing because wanting to be labelled as their preferred gender is kind of the whole point.
However, it's sometimes worthy pointing out as a fact, since being trans makes a difference in the kind of history and experiences one has had.
Being publicly labelled as a trans can be harmful because it makes it easier for bigots to discriminate.
Another point is that nonbinary people may find "trans" as a label suitable, because they wish to transition from their gender assigned from birth but perhaps not settle for anything specific.
[editline]edit[/editline]
Regarding the topic at hand; I want to know why BasedVidya holds genitals and chromosomes in such high importance. Not only are they unreliable basis for either gender or sex, but also because he admits that the brains are different based on gender rather than sex.
We're talking about social interaction here, not procreation, so isn't the mind all that matters? You can call genitals by any name and they do not care, yet why is it such an issue to give the person the kind of treatment they wish? What's the harm?
My theory is that it will be an overall benefit to society to abandon the strict gender roles and gender=sex classifications.
Not only you get many less people suffering from gender dysphoria, less violence against nonconforming people, but I dare say people will be happier and more productive when they can express themselves more freely with lifestyles and career choices.
[QUOTE=Doom64hunter;49827724]Way to take the bait guys.[/QUOTE]
This isn't 4chan, I'm not gonna sit around determining whether someone is pretending to be stupid or not.
[QUOTE=BasedVidya;49827341]Chromosomes given to one at birth.[/QUOTE]
No offense, but you're so fucking ignorant it hurts.
Chromosomes do not always define your physical sex. You could have stuff like adrenal hyperplasia in XX individuals causing them to have male sex for example and androgen insensitivity in XY individuals causing them to have female sex.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;49829476]So vidya have you actually given a reason as to why calling a trans person by their preferred pronouns is actually bad?[/QUOTE]
Because a transman is not physically the same as a man so calling them by the same physical classification is imprecise speech.
[editline]28th February 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Xonax;49829547]How would you feel if I didn't called you a He? But something else entirely?
You would feel belittled, you would feel like you are worthless.[/QUOTE]
Pronouns = gender + sex to me. He = man + male sex. She = woman + female sex.
If you didn't call me "he", I would call you weird because I am a man by all standards. I wouldn't call you a bigot though.
This is all moot because transmen are not the same as me and they never will be. They are men in the mind and women in body while I am man in mind and man in body. As a sexual species, this distinction is very, very important.
[QUOTE=BasedVidya;49830139]Because a transman is not physically the same as a man so calling them by the same physical classification is imprecise speech.
[editline]28th February 2016[/editline]
Pronouns = gender + sex to me. He = man + male sex. She = woman + female sex.
If you didn't call me "he", I would call you weird because I am a man by all standards. I wouldn't call you a bigot though.
This is all moot because transmen are not the same as me and they never will be. They are men in the mind and women in body while I am man in mind and man in body. As a sexual species, this distinction is very, very important.[/QUOTE]
does it really matter this much to you
[QUOTE=BasedVidya;49830139]
This is all moot because transmen are not the same as me and they never will be[/QUOTE]
"They're scary to me :c" is all I'm hearing
[QUOTE=BasedVidya;49830139]Because a transman is not physically the same as a man so calling them by the same physical classification is imprecise speech.[/quote]
Precise speech is not polite speech. I'd love for you to answer this
[quote]Also just to clear things up.
Vidya, lets say theres a woman at work who you have a good working relationship with. After a while you two develop a friendship. One day she decides that she trusts you enough to pull you aside and give you a heart to heart about how she was born anatomically male. She ends the conversation by asking you to please not go around telling everyone this. Would you suddenly start referring to her as a transwoman in front of everyone?[/quote]
[quote]
Pronouns = gender + sex to me. He = man + male sex. She = woman + female sex.[/quote]
Then you've got a pretty shitty viewpoint that makes no sense.
[quote]
If you didn't call me "he", I would call you weird because I am a man by all standards. I wouldn't call you a bigot though. [/quote]
You're not the one with gender dysphoria here.
[quote]
This is all moot because transmen are not the same as me and they never will be. They are men in the mind and women in body while I am man in mind and man in body. As a sexual species, this distinction is very, very important.[/QUOTE]
Why is it important? You keep harping on the "importance" of making the distinction based on sex but you never actually elaborate on why such a distinction is so important.
[QUOTE=Xonax;49829613]What did me editing this prove? It proves that the way you look at us, at us Trans, is the same way people looked at Blacks in the past.
[editline]28th February 2016[/editline]
Probably not the best comparison but still tho.[/QUOTE]
Uh, but 'black' IS a word that distinguishes them as different. We have race to physically describe people. Are you saying that I should be advocating specific pronouns "black-he"/"black-she" for black people?
Unfortunately for this comparison, the English language does not use pronouns for race and black men are still 100% men and black women are still 100% women. Their pronouns do not need further clarification. The same is not true with trans people.
[QUOTE=BasedVidya;49830198]Uh, but 'black' IS a word that distinguishes them as different. We have race to physically describe people. Are you saying that I should be advocating specific pronouns "black-he"/"black-she" for black people?
Unfortunately for this comparison, the English language does not use pronouns for race and black men are still 100% men and black women are still 100% women. Their pronouns do not need further clarification. The same is not true with trans people.[/QUOTE]
What about other languages then? There are languages commonly used today that don't make use of gendered pronouns at all.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;49830194]Precise speech is not polite speech. I'd love for you to answer this[/QUOTE]
I'd rather be precise and hurt peoples feelings than be polite and ruin language until it is rendered meaningless. Facts do not care about your feelings.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;49830194]Why is it important? You keep harping on the "importance" of making the distinction based on sex but you never actually elaborate on why such a distinction is so important.[/QUOTE]
Because we are a sexual species. Having sex is how we keep the species alive. Having words that distinguishes the sexes helps the species reproduce easier by having a simpler courtship process. Considering it can be argued that having kids is the only objective reason for existing, this is a pretty huge deal.
[editline]28th February 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Kyle902;49830210]What about other languages then? There are languages commonly used today that don't make use of gendered pronouns at all.[/QUOTE]
I don't care. I'm talking about the English language. Enjoy never being misgendered in those other languages though. Sounds a bit vague to me, but whatever.
[QUOTE=BasedVidya;49830218]I'd rather be precise and hurt peoples feelings than be polite and ruin language until it is rendered meaningless.[/QUOTE]
To have that line of thinking it just kinda shows you never have sincere social interaction with others. I'm not trying to sound rude I'm just pointing it out. There is, in no way, harm going to come to the English language because you used a pronoun that someone prefers to go by. Quit acting like it's some academic nightmare that you want to respect someone's feelings, because clearly you have trouble doing that in the first place.
You are currently rendering language meaningless because you are saying "having sex" rather than "having sexual intercourse" because those words aren't being used properly.
Is that going to make you upset? No, of course not.
[QUOTE=BasedVidya;49830218]I'd rather be precise and hurt peoples feelings than be polite and ruin language until it is rendered meaningless. Facts do not care about your feelings.[/QUOTE]
Then, quite simply, you're an asshole. Congrats! If you go out of your way to hurt peoples feelings to preserve language (nevermind that many languages don't even have gendered pronouns.) then you're quite simply an asshole.
[B]Furthermore[/B], and I'm putting this in bold because its important, if you're going to cut out large swathes of my posts that you can't actually answer then there is no point in further discussion as you've already conceded that you can't address what I'm saying.
[quote]
Because we are a sexual species. Having sex is how we keep the species alive.[/quote]
Congrats! You're using the same argument that's used against gay people! To which the standard reply is that we aren't in any danger of dying out anytime soon so I don't know why you care.
[quote]
Having words that distinguishes the sexes helps the species reproduce easier by having a simpler courtship process.[/quote]
What? No seriously... What? Are you implying we should start defining people based on their reproductive ability?
[quote]
Considering it can be argued that having kids is the only objective reason for existing, this is a pretty huge deal.[/quote]
If having kids is your sole purpose for continued existence then you're both very shallow and very narrow minded.
[editline]28th February 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=BasedVidya;49830218]
I don't care. I'm talking about the English language. Enjoy never being misgendered in those other languages though. Sounds a bit vague to me, but whatever.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for proving that you're narrow minded btw
[QUOTE=PelPix123;49830457]OK, if you have to be both to qualify for the pronouns, what do you suggest we call people whos two physical sexes (brain and body) don't match? What is a female brain and a male body? What pronoun is that?[/QUOTE]
The pronoun is "BUTTHEENGLISHLANGUAGE"
I love it when people try to pull "academics" out of their ass as an argument when they never actually care about education, language or any form of academia unless it means they can harass and belittle minorities.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;49830464]The pronoun is "BUTTHEENGLISHLANGUAGE"
I love it when people try to pull "academics" out of their ass as an argument when they never actually care about education, language or any form of academia unless it means they can harass and belittle minorities.[/QUOTE]
The people who bitch and moan about the evolution of language from an academic standpoint are usually the first to cry about "the liebruls" ruining academia.
Y'know, despite the fact academia has always had an inherent lean to the left due to the nature of discovery.
[QUOTE=BasedVidya;49830218]I'd rather be precise and hurt peoples feelings than be polite and ruin language until it is rendered meaningless. Facts do not care about your feelings.
Because we are a sexual species. Having sex is how we keep the species alive. Having words that distinguishes the sexes helps the species reproduce easier by having a simpler courtship process. Considering it can be argued that having kids is the only objective reason for existing, this is a pretty huge deal.
[editline]28th February 2016[/editline]
I don't care. I'm talking about the English language. Enjoy never being misgendered in those other languages though. Sounds a bit vague to me, but whatever.[/QUOTE]
Just because you have decided the meaning of your life as a human is having a baby via a "simple courtship process", doesn't mean you get to decide that for others. If you say that you define pronouns solely based upon procreation, doesn't mean others have to define their own language as such. That's not then fact, that's your own opinion and belief.
That said, all this is pointless because funnily enough, you're willing to use your own vocabulary as fact and objectively correct, rather than understand that language is a tool of connection between other human beings.
Example: You find out someone you know is trans, someone you've known for years. You suddenly reverse all gendered pronouns/language towards them in order to satisfy your own ideas of human existence. They begin to hate you for denying who they believe they are, and never talk to you again.
Is that outcome worth believing others should define themselves based on what you want them to define themselves as, rather than how they would prefer to define themselves?
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;49830464]The pronoun is "BUTTHEENGLISHLANGUAGE"
I love it when people try to pull "academics" out of their ass as an argument when they never actually care about education, language or any form of academia unless it means they can harass and belittle minorities.[/QUOTE]
Its worse then that because its pretty obvious he doesn't even care about english. He's using it as an excuse to justify his bigotry.
vidya-man, you obviously have no clue what you're talking about, your view of gender and sex is very basic and black and white.
so instead of teaching trans people about transgenderism is why don't you go and do some extensive research and self-educating? because from reading some of your posts, i find it safe to assume that you've missed a bit too many high school biology classes to have a say on this topic.
[QUOTE=Blind Weasel;49830489]vidya-man, you obviously have no clue what you're talking about, your view of gender and sex is very basic and black and white.
so instead of teaching trans people about transgenderism is why don't you go and do some extensive research and self-educating? because from reading some of your posts, i find it safe to assume that you've missed a bit too many high school biology classes to have a say on this topic.[/QUOTE]
I don't even think he realizes that I'm trans
[QUOTE=Blind Weasel;49830489]vidya-man, you obviously have no clue what you're talking about, your view of gender and sex is very basic and black and white.
so instead of teaching trans people about transgenderism is why don't you go and do some extensive research and self-educating? because from reading some of your posts, i find it safe to assume that you've missed a bit too many high school biology classes to have a say on this topic.[/QUOTE]
Dude, I'm only in eighth grade and I know more about this shit than he does.
He's just really stupid.
The only thing confusing about the trans issue is the fact that it's an issue at all. People can be whatever they feel comfortable being, why do other people even care?
[QUOTE=PelPix123;49830457]OK, if you have to be both to qualify for the pronouns, what do you suggest we call people whos two physical sexes (brain and body) don't match? What is a female brain and a male body? What pronoun is that?[/QUOTE]
The trans community refuses to come up with one. I would say trans-she.
[editline]28th February 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Kyle902;49830500]I don't even think he realizes that I'm trans[/QUOTE]
It's kind of stupid to assume somebody is trans when being trans is less than 1% of the population.
[QUOTE=BasedVidya;49830687]The trans community refuses to come up with one. I would say trans-she.[/QUOTE]
Are you daft?
[quote]
It's kind of stupid to assume somebody is trans when being trans is less than 1% of the population.[/quote]
A. We don't actually know how big the trans demographic is so good job with making a claim you can't prove.
B. You have yet to address anything I've said in a substantial way which leads me to believe that you can't.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;49830260]Then, quite simply, you're an asshole. Congrats! If you go out of your way to hurt peoples feelings to preserve language (nevermind that many languages don't even have gendered pronouns.) then you're quite simply an asshole.[/QUOTE]
So the only argument you have is that I'm an asshole? Okay. Asshole or not, I'm right that you are not the same as me. That's for you to deal with. Your feelings are irrelevant to me.
I think we have reached the end of this debate so I'll probably leave it at that. Thanks for the fun, guys.
[QUOTE=BasedVidya;49830715]So the only argument you have is that I'm an asshole? Okay. Asshole or not, I'm right that you are not the same as me. That's for you to deal with. Your feelings are irrelevant to me.[/QUOTE]
There was far more to my argument then that but, ironically for such a stalwart defender of English, it seems your lackluster comprehension of the English language prevents you from understanding that.
You also cut out over 3/4ths of my post because you couldn't refute it. Good work proving me right.
[quote]
I think we have reached the end of this debate so I'll probably leave it at that. Thanks for the fun, guys.[/quote]
"I still can't actually refute anything you're saying"
[QUOTE=Kyle902;49830500]I don't even think he realizes that I'm trans[/QUOTE]
Watch out for his Ad Hominem attacks! They do no damage but inflict the "irritate" status effect!
-snip misunderstanding-
[QUOTE=BasedVidya;49830139]Pronouns = gender + sex to me. He = man + male sex. She = woman + female sex.[/QUOTE]
"please define this arbitrary term"
"arbitrary term is other arbitrary term + sex"
[editline]28th February[/editline]
[thumb]http://res.freestockphotos.biz/pictures/3/3557-illustration-of-a-black-circular-arrow-pv.png[/thumb]
[QUOTE=Kyle902;49830741]wot?
[editline]28th February 2016[/editline]
That wasn't even an ad hominem?[/QUOTE]
I know, it was just a joke that I had in my head earlier and wanted to tease him with it. But yeah, It's not that funny though, so sorry.
[QUOTE=Lord of Boxes;49830756]I know, it was just a joke that I had in my head earlier and wanted to tease him with it. But yeah, It's not that funny though, so sorry.[/QUOTE]
Oh I thought you were referring to my post lol. Its fine
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