Sex, Girlfriends and Shit VII: "Power Moves For High Quality Women" - General

[QUOTE=Aetna;52349021]I think I'm love with my coworker. We've been friends for 7 years now, ever since I started at the company, and over the last year have grown extremely close. I've watched her get engaged, married, have her son, all while meeting with her every morning to tell her my latest shenanigans of being in my 20's, allowing her to "live vicariously" through me, since she's 12 years older than I. We frequently have beers after work or plan weekend activities together, and just, click, we have the same opinions on everything and I can make her laugh without even trying. I know exactly how to cheer her up, how to make her smile. A couple months ago I had a bad motorcycle accident that I walked away from with no injuries, so we went out for drinks to celebrate. I was walking her to her car after a few beers, when she started to cry. When I asked what was wrong, she told me how scared she was about losing me, that she loves me and wouldn't know what to do if I wasn't there for her anymore. I cracked a lighthearted joke to cheer her up and she looks up at me, and next thing I know we're pushed up against her car making out, feeling her up, grabbing her hair. We were always a little touchy before but never like this. But now we're sneaking in a kiss here and there, I'll give her ass a quick squeeze now and again, we'll sneak each other looks whenever we see each other... and I really look forward to those moments. I've never spent 7 years getting to know someone before getting physical with them and I'm always so excited when I get to see her everyday. Hell, I can smell her perfume on my jacket right now as I'm typing this and it's making me smile. I know this isn't anything that can go anywhere, and won't go any further than it already has and I won't let it - I can't, won't. But god damn it kills me, I love this woman and would do anything for her. It just kinda sucks. I'm mad at myself for for even acting on impulse in that parking lot and sparking all this.[/QUOTE] why exactly can't it go anywh- oh wait i just read it dude she's married and has a kid, quit it

[QUOTE=Aetna;52349021]I think I'm love with my coworker. We've been friends for 7 years now, ever since I started at the company, and over the last year have grown extremely close. I've watched her get engaged, married, have her son, all while meeting with her every morning to tell her my latest shenanigans of being in my 20's, allowing her to "live vicariously" through me, since she's 12 years older than I. We frequently have beers after work or plan weekend activities together, and just, click, we have the same opinions on everything and I can make her laugh without even trying. I know exactly how to cheer her up, how to make her smile. A couple months ago I had a bad motorcycle accident that I walked away from with no injuries, so we went out for drinks to celebrate. I was walking her to her car after a few beers, when she started to cry. When I asked what was wrong, she told me how scared she was about losing me, that she loves me and wouldn't know what to do if I wasn't there for her anymore. I cracked a lighthearted joke to cheer her up and she looks up at me, and next thing I know we're pushed up against her car making out, feeling her up, grabbing her hair. We were always a little touchy before but never like this. But now we're sneaking in a kiss here and there, I'll give her ass a quick squeeze now and again, we'll sneak each other looks whenever we see each other... and I really look forward to those moments. I've never spent 7 years getting to know someone before getting physical with them and I'm always so excited when I get to see her everyday. Hell, I can smell her perfume on my jacket right now as I'm typing this and it's making me smile. I know this isn't anything that can go anywhere, and won't go any further than it already has and I won't let it - I can't, won't. But god damn it kills me, I love this woman and would do anything for her. It just kinda sucks. I'm mad at myself for for even acting on impulse in that parking lot and sparking all this.[/QUOTE] Situations like this makes me think this is why polygamy can work, on occasion. I think it mainly comes down to lifestyle. Assuming she is still married, a mom, etc (sounds like she is since you said it was fairly recent), then her away-from-work life largely focuses on time with her husband and son. Doesn't mean there is no room/time for anyone or anything else, but those people she holds close obviously. Unless you physically moved in with her, things would basically stay where they are now. You still obviously can maintain a close and romantic connection, but it would be open ended or casual. In an optimistic light, that's ok, you can still be free to enjoy time with her with out "invading" or "interfering" with her life among her husband and son. It would be especially good if there was a mutual understanding among everyone, that's what makes polygamy work as far as I'm concerned. But, we all know things don't always work out so clean cut and black & white. That's why non-monogamous relationships are so difficult. EDIT: It is hard to truly advocate to keep going with it, but since she seems to initiate it as well, perhaps there is a level of romance that is acceptable, and you've hit that limit. Simplifying my crazy thoughts, just don't expect mutual love, it would become way too complicated.

[QUOTE=NO ONE;52350073]Situations like this makes me think this is why polygamy can work, on occasion. I think it mainly comes down to lifestyle. Assuming she is still married, a mom, etc (sounds like she is since you said it was fairly recent), then her away-from-work life largely focuses on time with her husband and son. Doesn't mean there is no room/time for anyone or anything else, but those people she holds close obviously. Unless you physically moved in with her, things would basically stay where they are now. You still obviously can maintain a close and romantic connection, but it would be open ended or casual. In an optimistic light, that's ok, you can still be free to enjoy time with her with out "invading" or "interfering" with her life among her husband and son. It would be especially good if there was a mutual understanding among everyone, that's what makes polygamy work as far as I'm concerned. But, we all know things don't always work out so clean cut and black & white. That's why non-monogamous relationships are so difficult. EDIT: It is hard to truly advocate to keep going with it, but since she seems to initiate it as well, perhaps there is a level of romance that is acceptable, and you've hit that limit. Simplifying my crazy thoughts, just don't expect mutual love, it would become way too complicated.[/QUOTE] Do you really think her husband is going to be okay with her diddling with another dude just after she had her kid.

[QUOTE=killerteacup;52350135]Do you really think her husband is going to be okay with her diddling with another dude just after she had her kid.[/QUOTE] Chances are, no. It would be upsetting the balance in the relationship, among other obvious issues. But life is weird and couples have worked out things like that before, however unusual and unlikely those solutions probably are for most people.

Don't be the cunt that breaks up something good.

I don't expect, nor would I ask, her to leave her husband. I'm toning things down day by day and ultimately, I feel as though this may just be some kind of escape for her, when before this, we had nothing but a great friendship. Just sucks is all. Don't have anyone to talk to about it.

[QUOTE=Aetna;52351471]I don't expect, nor would I ask, her to leave her husband. I'm toning things down day by day and ultimately, I feel as though this may just be some kind of escape for her, when before this, we had nothing but a great friendship. Just sucks is all. Don't have anyone to talk to about it.[/QUOTE] You don't expect her to leave her husband, but would you wish her to do it ? Because in my opinion, if you need a growing relationship, that's probably dead end. I hope I never cross this kind of situation, I wouldn't know what to do or think

[QUOTE=Aetna;52351471]I don't expect, nor would I ask, her to leave her husband. I'm toning things down day by day and ultimately, I feel as though this may just be some kind of escape for her, when before this, we had nothing but a great friendship. Just sucks is all. Don't have anyone to talk to about it.[/QUOTE] If you were to remove any emotions from this situation, and who people are and just state the facts of what is happening: - A woman works at a company and strikes a friendship with someone 12 years her junior - She decides to get engaged and eventually marry a person - She gets pregnant, and has a child - She makes a decision to initiate a sexual/romantic relationship with someone else. Her husband doesn't know, her baby is too young to know. However, her husband has probably met this person. - She then makes a decision to attempt to continue this beyond just one time. Her husband doesn't know, and she's taking time away from her family to spend time with someone else. Maybe it would help you to remind yourself of these points when you're thinking about how great she smells

[QUOTE=killerteacup;52352358]If you were to remove any emotions from this situation, and who people are and just state the facts of what is happening: - A woman works at a company and strikes a friendship with someone 12 years her junior - She decides to get engaged and eventually marry a person - She gets pregnant, and has a child - She makes a decision to initiate a sexual/romantic relationship with someone else. Her husband doesn't know, her baby is too young to know. However, her husband has probably met this person. - She then makes a decision to attempt to continue this beyond just one time. Her husband doesn't know, and she's taking time away from her family to spend time with someone else. Maybe it would help you to remind yourself of these points when you're thinking about how great she smells[/QUOTE] I totally understand your point and, as I stated several times, I've had no one to talk to about this and really it just sucks. The whole thing sucks, not just how I feel, but how I know it could negatively effect others. It's not like I haven't thought about everything you just said - and that's what hurts the most. The "Maybe it would help you to remind yourself of these points when you're thinking about how great she smells" was a little harsh when it's already something I'm beating myself up about.

[QUOTE=Kabstrac;52353068]Maybe you should just talk to her about it and say how you feel about the whole situation[/QUOTE] I'm just going to tell her that I value our friendship and respect the sanctity of her personal life far too much to continue the way we have. We'll still be friends, always, and I'm lucky to have her that way. Would have been real nice in a different life and I've enjoyed what we got to experience, but I don't want this cloud over my head any longer.

I'm in a similar situation. My first love from about 10 years ago, we were each other's first sexual partner also, has come back into my life. Only she's getting a divorce. But she had filed for divorce before reconnecting with me, but I mean it's just really complicated. On the one hand I really think she ought to just get over her own happiness and make her marriage work so her child will grow up properly. On the other hand how proper is a house that is filled with constant fighting. I just don't know my place in this, but she wants to give me a shot. We've had conversations along the lines of wishing we would have known we shared such strong feelings for each other sooner and maybe we both wouldn't have had to go through such hardship, hers being a failed marriage and having a kid with a controlling asshole, and mine being having wasted so much time in the interim (I've done a lot of personal development recently, and had I gotten my act together sooner, probably wouldn't be where I am now, and neither would she because she might have been with me already). So it's super conflicting because I want a family of my own so bad that I really respect what it is so on the one hand I want her to make hers work but on the other hand she's already leaving him because she's not happy and that happened before I came back into the picture, and she has voluntarily come to me, so maybe I need to at least try. There's also the issue of she has severe medical complications that will make it either enormously expensive or a severe health risk for her to ever get pregnant again, meaning in my slacking off for 10 years I might have missed out on fathering the only child the woman I love can have because someone else got there first and so if I do pursue my love for her, I'll potentially be sacrificing my own genetic contribution and also taking up the responsibility of helping the development of someone else's genetic contribution. Her son is both the most beautiful and terrible thing I've ever seen and it makes me feel way too much, things that I have a hard time even conceptualizing. So it's complicated. It's better to be friends, maybe.

No offense, and perhaps it's just me being biased, but if "genetic contribution" matters that much to you you might be missing the point of family. There are several alternatives to regular pregnancies when it comes to bringing up a child, that it may not necessarily result in you being the biological father (and you would be if you go the route of surrogacy) shouldn't hinder you from bringing them up and loving them as your own.

[QUOTE=Aetna;52353181]I'm just going to tell her that I value our friendship and respect the sanctity of her personal life far too much to continue the way we have. We'll still be friends, always, and I'm lucky to have her that way. Would have been real nice in a different life and I've enjoyed what we got to experience, but I don't want this cloud over my head any longer.[/QUOTE] I hope you get to keep your friendship, a lot of the time these feelings are too hard to overcome should any one of you feel like wanting more and you can't enjoy what you have, then it's a problem, but I pray for you that it never comes to that

[QUOTE=_Axel;52354184]No offense, and perhaps it's just me being biased, but if "genetic contribution" matters that much to you you might be missing the point of family. There are several alternatives to regular pregnancies when it comes to bringing up a child, that it may not necessarily result in you being the biological father (and you would be if you go the route of surrogacy) shouldn't hinder you from bringing them up and loving them as your own.[/QUOTE] I would be happy to help someone else's child, it would just be a painful sacrifice for me. I would be able to love him, sure. I would just really like a son of my own. I admit to being biased myself, it may not be rational, it may not be the most pure motivation, but I want it. I want a part of myself to continue into the next generation, in more than just thoughts and ideas. It matters to me. It may not matter to other people and it definitely isn't the only thing that matters, but it does matter to me, and that is important. I value having a son or a daughter of my own one day. Anything else is just not the same. Good, possibly even amazing, life affirming, wonderful, but not the same. I don't take any offense though. I'm trying to figure out my own value structure in life anyway so this might even change or become more clear to me over time. But for now I know I feel strongly about it and it makes me very sad.

IVF Surrogacy is an option instead of a high risk pregnancy. Both mother and father can contribute sperm and eggs and implant the combo into a surrogate mother. The baby will have no genetic traits of the surrogate. It's EXPENSIVE as all hell, like anywhere between $30k and $300k but it is one option at least. [editline]13th June 2017[/editline] It's something I was looking into for a little bit because I'm asexual and have absolutely zero interest in being pregnant but I'd like to have a genetic kid of my own AND adopt at some point. But shit's expensive bruh maybe if I get rich some day.

[QUOTE=Pascall;52354319]IVF Surrogacy is an option instead of a high risk pregnancy. Both mother and father can contribute sperm and eggs and implant the combo into a surrogate mother. The baby will have no genetic traits of the surrogate. It's EXPENSIVE as all hell, like anywhere between $30k and $300k but it is one option at least. [editline]13th June 2017[/editline] It's something I was looking into for a little bit because I'm asexual and have absolutely zero interest in being pregnant but I'd like to have a genetic kid of my own AND adopt at some point. But shit's expensive bruh maybe if I get rich some day.[/QUOTE] Yeah that's one expensive option, or the other expensive option for her to be able to have another baby would be for her to go on this specific very special blood thinner and have $400 shots directly into the stomach every day of the entire pregnancy and for some time thereafter. I don't want to run the actual numbers, they're not nice to think about, but yeah, it's a lot of money. Otherwise her blood becomes far too thick and she will clot and have a brain aneurysm and probably die. She already has a huge clot in her knee from her first kid and it could come loose and kill her at any time, even now. It's rough. So yeah there's so many layers to it. This isn't even the only or even the biggest issue. I'm trying to get myself together in the eyes of God and live a just and meaningful life, and she might just be a distraction from that. I mean she's leaving the stability of a marriage which is very important for the sake of their child, and going off and trying to find herself and have fun and live her own life. That's not the way it should be. It's not about her anymore, she has a child. She's focused on the immediate and material rather than the long term meaning of life. So what kind of person am I going to become by inviting that into my life at this juncture where I myself have now committed to being better and doing the right thing and speaking the truth? Because the truth is that she should make her family work for the sake of her son. And the truth also is that I love her, she loves me, and I wish that could be my son, and that we could be together. These truths are self evident, but conflicting. And I don't even know what the right thing to do would be, because the answer is different depending on for whose sake you're asking the question.

[QUOTE=Pascall;52354319]IVF Surrogacy is an option instead of a high risk pregnancy. Both mother and father can contribute sperm and eggs and implant the combo into a surrogate mother. The baby will have no genetic traits of the surrogate. It's EXPENSIVE as all hell, like anywhere between $30k and $300k but it is one option at least. [editline]13th June 2017[/editline] It's something I was looking into for a little bit because I'm asexual and have absolutely zero interest in being pregnant but I'd like to have a genetic kid of my own AND adopt at some point. But shit's expensive bruh maybe if I get rich some day.[/QUOTE] Isn't that illegal ?

"Making her family work" is not necessarily an option, sometimes it's possible, sometimes it's not. Perhaps a divorce would actually be better for the child than living for two decades under perpetual conflict.

Marriage =/= stability. An unhappy marriage can be just as detrimental to a child as a divorce can be. There isn't really avoiding doing damage. But with effort and understanding it doesn't have to be an insurmountable hurdle for the family. My sister has a one year old with a guy who she's not with anymore and even has a new boyfriend now who is willing to step up but the real father will still come around occasionally to spend an hour or two with the kid. It might be something worth explaining once she's older but I think as long as the kid has a lot of love and has some kind of male figure in their lives, there isn't gonna be as big of a hurt as one might assume. It's better to end a marriage that has no love in it than suffer through it because they think it'll be better for the kid.

[QUOTE=Eirheinger;52354541]Isn't that illegal ?[/QUOTE] [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrogacy#/media/File:Maternidad_subrogada_situaci%C3%B3n_legal.PNG]That depends on the country.[/url]

[QUOTE=Eirheinger;52354541]Isn't that illegal ?[/QUOTE] N...No? It's a fully legal process. [url]http://www.webmd.com/infertility-and-reproduction/guide/using-surrogate-mother[/url] [quote]Gestational surrogates. A technique called "in vitro fertilization" (IVF) now makes it possible to gather eggs from the mother, fertilize them with sperm from the father, and place the embryo into the uterus of a gestational surrogate. The surrogate then carries the baby until birth. She doesn't have any genetic ties to the child because it wasn't her egg that was used. A gestational surrogate is called the "birth mother." The biological mother, though, is still the woman whose egg was fertilized. In the U.S., gestational surrogacy is less complex legally. That's because both intended parents have genetic ties to the baby. As a result, gestational surrogacy has become more common than a traditional surrogate. About 750 babies are born each year using gestational surrogacy.[/quote] [editline]13th June 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=_Axel;52354558][url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrogacy#/media/File:Maternidad_subrogada_situaci%C3%B3n_legal.PNG]That depends on the country.[/url][/QUOTE] oh yeah that too.

Yeah I've thought about that too. It will hurt her more than her husband though, he's trying to fuck her out of everything. He's taking the house, a majority of the custody, is keeping her dead mom's furniture on account of "she gave it to US, not you", and is going to make her pay child support. If he gets his way legally, which is likely because he is smart enough to and has the ability to throw more money at it than she does, she will be in the position where she's the one who only gets to see her son occasionally and only under certain conditions. So it wouldn't even be so much of a situation where I'll be stepping in and co-parenting with her. I would be stepping in and trying to mitigate a disaster. Unless he suddenly becomes more amicable and the custody terms change, but it's doubtful unless she throws enough money together for a good legal support. There's just too much to deal with.

[QUOTE=Pascall;52354561]N...No? It's a fully legal process. [url]http://www.webmd.com/infertility-and-reproduction/guide/using-surrogate-mother[/url] [editline]13th June 2017[/editline] oh yeah that too.[/QUOTE] After some research, here's what I found about the law (i live in France) : [QUOTE]Code Civil, article 16-7 : "Toute convention portant sur la procréation ou la gestation pour le compte d'autrui est nulle."[/QUOTE] This is basically France saying "Fuck no, and if you do go to jail and give us your money bitch" to this kind of stuff. A bit sad. So that's legal in USA ?

[QUOTE=Eirheinger;52354669]After some research, here's what I found about the law (i live in France) : This is basically France saying "Fuck no, and if you do go to jail and give us your money bitch" to this kind of stuff. A bit sad. So that's legal in USA ?[/QUOTE] It's completely legal in Belgium though, so I guess you could just go north and do it there.

[QUOTE=Pascall;52354554]Marriage =/= stability. An unhappy marriage can be just as detrimental to a child as a divorce can be. There isn't really avoiding doing damage. But with effort and understanding it doesn't have to be an insurmountable hurdle for the family. My sister has a one year old with a guy who she's not with anymore and even has a new boyfriend now who is willing to step up but the real father will still come around occasionally to spend an hour or two with the kid. It might be something worth explaining once she's older but I think as long as the kid has a lot of love and has some kind of male figure in their lives, there isn't gonna be as big of a hurt as one might assume. It's better to end a marriage that has no love in it than suffer through it because they think it'll be better for the kid.[/QUOTE] Yeah, I was somewhat lucky that my dad worked the night shift and my mom the day for my whole life so that they were never really together during the week except ~past midnight because the fighting they have and the fighting between me and my mom is absolutely unbearable and unhealthy. I overheard one argument between them when I was a kid really late at night where they essentially agreed to stay together until me and my sister were out of the house, but if anything it just led to many more years of a toxic relationship, and my mother having constant paranoia that we all hated her and that we would choose my dad in a custody battle over her. Even to this day when I'm staying at home for the summer until I get an apartment (sister is still living at home since she's in HS), unhealthy arguments are still a daily occurance. Unfortunately, I haven't seen either of them make a minimal effort to have a serious conversation about their issues or been able to talk to my mom about our own unhealthy relationship without it turning into a screaming match.

[QUOTE=code_gs;52354714]Yeah, I was somewhat lucky that my dad worked the night shift and my mom the day for my whole life so that they were never really together during the week except ~past midnight because the fighting they have and the fighting between me and my mom is absolutely unbearable and unhealthy. I overheard one argument between them when I was a kid really late at night where they essentially agreed to stay together until me and my sister were out of the house, but if anything it just led to many more years of a toxic relationship, and my mother having constant paranoia that we all hated her and that we would choose my dad in a custody battle over her. Even to this day when I'm staying at home for the summer until I get an apartment (sister is still living at home since she's in HS), unhealthy arguments are still a daily occurance. Unfortunately, I haven't seen either of them make a minimal effort to have a serious conversation about their issues or been able to talk to my mom about our own unhealthy relationship without it turning into a screaming match.[/QUOTE] That's awful and that's definitely something like what life would be like for them if they decided to make it work. But the alternative is her son might grow up mostly under the rule of a totalitarian asshole who is also now embittered due to a failed marriage and she will not get to see him nearly as much as she should and so she will not be able to fulfill her needs as a mother or his needs as her son. Maybe the best solution is I try to bridge the gap between them. I don't even know if this guy will tolerate being in the same room as me though, much less want to discuss with me morality and the complexities of preparing a child to function in society. It's probably not going to happen. He wouldn't ever allow her to talk about their problems in their marriage to anyone other than him, he pretty much restricts her life to only him. He may not even bring her son over if I'm around. I can try to reach out and I will always be nice and honestly I really do truly want him to stop being such an ass so that his son will have a better life too, hell maybe he could even have his wife back if he stopped being so controlling, but just because I genuinely do want the best for everyone doesn't mean I'll be able to achieve any good for anyone at all. It might just be all bad. But I'll try.

[QUOTE=J Paul;52354880]That's awful and that's definitely something like what life would be like for them if they decided to make it work. But the alternative is her son might grow up mostly under the rule of a totalitarian asshole who is also now embittered due to a failed marriage and she will not get to see him nearly as much as she should and so she will not be able to fulfill her needs as a mother or his needs as her son. Maybe the best solution is I try to bridge the gap between them. I don't even know if this guy will tolerate being in the same room as me though, much less want to discuss with me morality and the complexities of preparing a child to function in society. It's probably not going to happen. He wouldn't ever allow her to talk about their problems in their marriage to anyone other than him, he pretty much restricts her life to only him. He may not even bring her son over if I'm around. I can try to reach out and I will always be nice and honestly I really do truly want him to stop being such an ass so that his son will have a better life too, hell maybe he could even have his wife back if he stopped being so controlling, but just because I genuinely do want the best for everyone doesn't mean I'll be able to achieve any good for anyone at all. It might just be all bad. But I'll try.[/QUOTE] Your naivety is precious. I'm saying this without irony, and I also don't mean to be condescending.

[QUOTE=GÃ©za!;52354893]Your naivety is precious. I'm saying this without irony, and I also don't mean to be condescending.[/QUOTE] I really am a sweet boy [editline]13th June 2017[/editline] Or maybe just very stupid, I'm not sure which

[QUOTE=J Paul;52354880]That's awful and that's definitely something like what life would be like for them if they decided to make it work. But the alternative is her son might grow up mostly under the rule of a totalitarian asshole who is also now embittered due to a failed marriage and she will not get to see him nearly as much as she should and so she will not be able to fulfill her needs as a mother or his needs as her son.[/QUOTE] It's somewhat the opposite situation -- my mom is the dominant force in the house which makes her paranoia have a tolling effect on everyone. I understand they stayed together for the immense care they have for me and my sister, but even by 13, I honestly wouldn't have cared if they had gotten divorced. It's just too tense of an environment for me to stay in for more than a week without going crazy; there was a point where I would practice sax at the school for 5 hours on end just to delay having to go home and inevitably fight with my mom.

I can agree with the genetic argument though. Humans want to pass on their genes to our own detriment. I agree that the better option for the world is adoption, another better option is to just not have kids. We have an overpopulation problem coming up on us, but people still choose to have kids.