Corruption in gaming journalism discussion and update thread. - General

[QUOTE=halflife_123;45855785]There is this discussion here if you are on reddit and want to talk about it there too [url]http://www.reddit.com/r/Gaming4Gamers/comments/2f33q5/the_coin_the_quinspiracy_theory_case/[/url][/QUOTE] one thing that slightly bothers me about this is that while people are shifting focus away from ZQ and more towards corruption in the industry (which I agree with), some people are openly saying that the reason we're shifting focus away from her is because "she did nothing wrong" which is pretty far from the truth. i still think that it should be known she's an abusive individual and is a danger to those susceptible to her tactics. also one of the mods said something that should be posted in the OP imo: [quote]A good way to avoid making ANY debate go sour is to try not to search for evidence that supports your claim. Search for evidence that is credible, THEN form a claim based on the evidence. This isn't about picking a team then fighting for that team; it's about examining the facts with an open mind. For example, instead of Googling "why video games are bad for you" try Googling "are video games bad for you" and wait to form an argument until you've seen credible evidence from both sides.[/quote]

[QUOTE=V12US;45855167]It has, but the difference is that they've seemed to have teamed up with and are making money off a group of people with an anti-gaming agenda. In a symbiotic relationship, the game journalism sites are offering these people a stage and make money off their articles, and the anti-gaming people use their 'SJW' networks to organize large coordinated strikes to push their own agenda and silence the opposition. If the clickbait gaming sites from several years ago could be compared to petty thieves and pickpockets, the current scenario pretty much looks like full-on organized crime.[/QUOTE] I'm actually confused if this post is satire or not. There's no dreaded "SJW underworld" as you make it out to be.

That's what you think Wake up sheeple

[QUOTE=Ownederd;45856136]I'm actually confused if this post is satire or not. There's no dreaded "SJW underworld" as you make it out to be.[/QUOTE] Social Justice isn't about this, these people we're going against are not Social Justice. They're Leaches that have latched themselves onto the asshole of Social Justice and are happily eating up the stupid shit that comes out, digesting it, taking it seriously. Social Justice has always been and will always been about equality.

[QUOTE=Swilly;45856180]Social Justice isn't about this, these people we're going against are not Social Justice. They're Leaches that have latched themselves onto the asshole of Social Justice and are happily eating up the stupid shit that comes out, digesting it, taking it seriously. Social Justice has always been and will always been about equality.[/QUOTE] I know, I'm just pointing out the ridiculous, borderline paranoid cherry-picking he's doing.

[QUOTE=hexpunK;45855686]I know I brought this up in the SH thread. But why this event? Why is it this event, and not the hundreds of other examples of corruption that have been brought to light (examples much more damaging might I add) that has caused such a reaction? We have tons of documented examples of AAA devs bribing the big name review sites, the ones that actually matter and effect the developers, consumers and everyone in between them. Buying the reviewers gadgets, taking them to exotic locations for play testing, etc. Why did it take a small-time (in the grand scheme of things) indie dev getting miniature Kotaku dick (was it ever confirmed she slept with them for mentions or good reviews? I don't remember anything confirming it coming up but if anything new came up, then whatever, inform me!) to spur this on? Why did nobody actually do anything when the really damaging shit was going on?[/QUOTE] Honestly, it's because indie gaming felt like the last refuge from this bullshit. I think we all thought better of indie devs. We thought indie devs tried to play the game the fair way, by legitimately promoting their projects, without crossing the line towards severe conflicts of interest and gaming the system. In my case, I saw the indie and AAA fields as two distinct elements in gaming. I figured, "Well, there's bullshit going on in AAA, but at least I can fall back into the indie side of things if I want devs and writers that are everyman's and work from a point of modest dignity." Not just did I think about this in regards to corruption, but I also felt that indie devs legitimately cared about social justice issues and intersectional inclusivity in their work. It's okay if Infinity Ward or DICE devs aren't completely intersectional - because the indie field has plenty of devs with their heart in the right place, who care deeply about gamers as a diverse identity, right? They would never stoop to playing their own form of dirty pool with journalists, because they live by a high ethical standard, right? Finding out that Kotaku journalists would freely report about their friends - with so much positivity that it reeked of an advertisement campaign - was shitty enough. Finding out that people like Zoe Quinn, Maya Felix, Leigh Alexander, and Sam Allen only really gave a shit about social justice when it [i]personally[/i] benefits them was the straw that broke the camel's back, on a personal level. I'm absolutely disgusted in the entire indie field now. I have zero trust for a single writer or worker, save for a very select few who have explicitly called out this bullshit. In the end, many people thought the indie scene had relatively less issues with nepotism. We felt that the crap in the AAA system was being confined into the AAA system. However, we found out the truth recently: not just was the nepotism and dirty politics ALWAYS in the indie field, but many people refuse to work towards deprogramming it. They'll throw social justice under the bus if it means protecting their own benefits from nepotism in the industry. In the end, I think it's the hypocrisy of these devs mixed with the indie elitism. We all figured Zoe Quinn and Maya Felix were, at the end of the day, gaming activists that cared deeply about the industry, and were somewhat similar to us. Instead, we found out that many of their clique weren't [i]actually[/i] believing what they publicly stood for, and often utilized connections in dirty ways in order to unethically promote their work. And many journalists were fully compliant in this, because it was just an easy way to get by in a crapshoot, B-grade journalist industry. People are misreading why we're so upset. We all thought indie gaming was a safe haven and a positive environment for video gaming. We thought it provided an alternative to bullshit in AAA fields. Instead, we now know that the indie scene participates in its own relative form of entitlement, nepotism, handwringing, and hypocrisy. That pissed off a lot of people, and most gamers want answers - and, if need be, atonement - for that nepotism. [editline]31st August 2014[/editline] tl;dr - the indie bubble popped and we all put a lot of investment in it. and now we're pissed.

[QUOTE=BearsOnFire;45855969]I can kinda see where NoDachi is coming from in so far as why we care so much? Many in these threads have already expressed that their dissatisfaction with the gaming news sites existed before the recent scandal. I haven't visited one on a regular basis in years. I, as well as plenty of others, have found that watching game footage and perusing forums to get the opinion of an "average Joe" to be much more useful. Alternatives to these sites already exist and do a better job of informing the consumer. So why then should anyone want to fix "traditional" games media instead of abandoning them for better alternatives? I understand that they impact sales and therefore what gets made, but I don't feel like their influence is greater than the actual consumer. Access is the only thing I can really think of that these sites have that an average Joe doesn't, but that access seems to more often than not translates to hype pieces before release or "apologies" after. Plus the exclusivity of this access is becoming a thing of the past with things like Twitter, AMAs, etc. The attacks and stereotyping of people who play games is uncalled for, but ultimately it is being done by people I never heard of and whose opinions I don't care about, so I find it hard to really get offended. Discussion is always welcome and it has been interesting to see this whole thing develop. But, I never really felt like I had a horse in this race. I struggle to see the way I consume games really impacted by this scandal in the future.[/QUOTE] There are a lot of people who are being abused and bullied by the pro-Zoe side in the name of "social justice", not to mention all the manipulating and lying she does to get her twitter army to do her bidding, and instead of exposing it, the press likes to pretend that she and her followers are the paragon of tolerance and that the only ones who are dishing abuse are the misogynistic, pasty white virgin pig gamers. Some people are being literally abused and blamed at the same time, the kind of behavior that actual feminists and defenders of social justice have tried to fight against for years. What do you think it would feel like, being one of these abuse victims, being told that their pain doesn't exist and that they are the ones who are intolerant? The mere though of it makes me physically want to puke. I wonder how actual abuse survivors can stomach it. This is what concerns me the most, why I care so much. Other people may be in it for other reasons, though.

[QUOTE=Ownederd;45856193]I know, I'm just pointing out the ridiculous, borderline paranoid cherry-picking he's doing.[/QUOTE] I know, I'm backing you up.

[QUOTE=Reimu;45856212]Honestly, it's because indie gaming felt like the last refuge from this bullshit. I think we all thought better of indie devs. We thought indie devs tried to play the game the fair way, by legitimately promoting their projects, without crossing the line towards severe conflicts of interest and gaming the system. In my case, I saw the indie and AAA fields as two distinct elements in gaming. I figured, "Well, there's bullshit going on in AAA, but at least I can fall back into the indie side of things if I want devs and writers that are everyman's and work from a point of modest dignity." Not just did I think about this in regards to corruption, but I also felt that indie devs legitimately cared about social justice issues and intersectional inclusivity in their work. It's okay if Infinity Ward or DICE devs aren't completely intersectional - because the indie field has plenty of devs with their heart in the right place, who care deeply about gamers as a diverse identity, right? They would never stoop to playing their own form of dirty pool with journalists, because they live by a high ethical standard, right? Finding out that Kotaku journalists would freely report about their friends - with so much positivity that it reeked of an advertisement campaign - was shitty enough. Finding out that people like Zoe Quinn, Maya Felix, Leigh Alexander, and Sam Allen only really gave a shit about social justice when it [i]personally[/i] benefits them was the straw that broke the camel's back, on a personal level. I'm absolutely disgusted in the entire indie field now. I have zero trust for a single writer or worker, save for a very select few who have explicitly called out this bullshit. In the end, many people thought the indie scene had relatively less issues with nepotism. We felt that the crap in the AAA system was being confined into the AAA system. However, we found out the truth recently: not just was the nepotism and dirty politics ALWAYS in the indie field, but many people refuse to work towards deprogramming it. They'll throw social justice under the bus if it means protecting their own benefits from nepotism in the industry. In the end, I think it's the hypocrisy of these devs mixed with the indie elitism. We all figured Zoe Quinn and Maya Felix were, at the end of the day, gaming activists that cared deeply about the industry, and were somewhat similar to us. Instead, we found out that many of their clique weren't [i]actually[/i] believing what they publicly stood for, and often utilized connections in dirty ways in order to unethically promote their work. And many journalists were fully compliant in this, because it was just an easy way to get by in a crapshoot, B-grade journalist industry. People are misreading why we're so upset. We all thought indie gaming was a safe haven and a positive environment for video gaming. We thought it provided an alternative to bullshit in AAA fields. Instead, we now know that the indie scene participates in its own relative form of entitlement, nepotism, handwringing, and hypocrisy. That pissed off a lot of people, and most gamers want answers - and, if need be, atonement - for that nepotism. [editline]31st August 2014[/editline] tl;dr - the indie bubble popped and we all put a lot of investment in it. and now we're pissed.[/QUOTE] This post is going to be turbo-short and I feel awful for not having much more to say, but most of your post is pretty much agreeable to there's nothing really to comment on. Though to say the "indie bubble popped" seems a bit short sighted to me at least, indie development and developers are still one bastion away from the AAA powerhouses, you're just going to need to be a bit more careful who you associate with now rather than expecting most, if not all, indie devs to have the same goals. Every group will have some subset of nepotist hypocrites to ruin the fun of the rest. I still find it very strange that people only gave a shit when it was something that, honestly, isn't going to effect the industry outside of that small circle of developers. It didn't seem like sites were passing over the developers not involved in favour of the ones that were, just that there was more commentary in general on the ones involved.

[QUOTE=Yahnich;45856182]isn't this the exact same argument sjws use[/QUOTE] To be fair most threads of this nature dont have OP's as an archive of evidence and explanations on how people feel about this situation.

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;45855761][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect[/url] Good for them.[/QUOTE] For once, I don't think this is the case. Too many places are censoring discussion or already pro-Zoe that it's a victory, not a defeat.

[QUOTE=BearsOnFire;45855969]I can kinda see where NoDachi is coming from in so far as why we care so much? Many in these threads have already expressed that their dissatisfaction with the gaming news sites existed before the recent scandal. I haven't visited one on a regular basis in years. I, as well as plenty of others, have found that watching game footage and perusing forums to get the opinion of an "average Joe" to be much more useful. Alternatives to these sites already exist and do a better job of informing the consumer. So why then should anyone want to fix "traditional" games media instead of abandoning them for better alternatives? I understand that they impact sales and therefore what gets made, but I don't feel like their influence is greater than the actual consumer. Access is the only thing I can really think of that these sites have that an average Joe doesn't, but that access seems to more often than not translates to hype pieces before release or "apologies" after. Plus the exclusivity of this access is becoming a thing of the past with things like Twitter, AMAs, etc. The attacks and stereotyping of people who play games is uncalled for, but ultimately it is being done by people I never heard of and whose opinions I don't care about, so I find it hard to really get offended. Discussion is always welcome and it has been interesting to see this whole thing develop. But, I never really felt like I had a horse in this race. I struggle to see the way I consume games really impacted by this scandal in the future.[/QUOTE] I just see so many people with a fake and self-serving idea of righteousness enabling other horrible people because they care more about being on the right side than doing the right thing. All I want to see is enough truth to come out that they can't keep up this facade of being well meaning progressives under siege by evil reactionary gamers, and are hopefully forced by deciding between admitted they were wrong or continuing to enable, and their unified front falls apart as people break ranks.

I hope they don't use the celebrity nude leak on 4chan as more of a way to shoot us down, since they already come up with bullshit reasons, that one could damage us.

[QUOTE=Intoxicated Spy;45856326]I hope they don't use the celebrity nude leak on 4chan as more of a way to shoot us down, since they already come up with bullshit reasons, that one could damage us.[/QUOTE] Considering how it happened on /b/ and not /v/ I don't think they'll get far. I'm not entirely sure how much of their userbases overlap though so I could be entirely wrong.

[QUOTE=Intoxicated Spy;45856326]I hope they don't use the celebrity nude leak on 4chan as more of a way to shoot us down, since they already come up with bullshit reasons, that one could damage us.[/QUOTE] They already have everything 4chan has ever done to shoot us down soo...

[QUOTE=Intoxicated Spy;45856326]I hope they don't use the celebrity nude leak on 4chan as more of a way to shoot us down, since they already come up with bullshit reasons, that one could damage us.[/QUOTE] has anyone got a list of names? The only one I recognize is the one from hunger games, but i think one of them is from the walking dead, Anyway, is there any actual reason for these to come out now?

[QUOTE=xxncxx;45856357]Considering how it happened on /b/ and not /v/ I don't think they'll get far. I'm not entirely sure how much of their userbases overlap though so I could be entirely wrong.[/QUOTE] /b/ = /v/ = 4chan for them

[QUOTE=absolalone111;45856363]has anyone got a list of names? The only one I recognize is the one from hunger games, but i think one of them is from the walking dead, Anyway, is there any actual reason for these to come out now?[/QUOTE] It was an iCloud hack AFAIK but this isn't the thread for it.

So, someone asked on /v/ to make a summary of the Maya Felix Kramer call out. I decided to go ahead and make this updated image. Can I have some feedback on it? Is it still too much text in the summary? [thumb]http://i.imgur.com/5aIDu2z.png[/thumb]

[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;45856365]/b/ = /v/ = 4chan for them[/QUOTE] Sadly, that is the problem here. They have no idea how 4chan works.

[QUOTE=Xenomoose;45854489]She's made connections with people in the gaming journalism industry and people believe (with credible evidence) that she's using those connections to get positive publicity for her game and censorship of any negative criticism, and investigations into this accusation revealed a whole lot more corrupt things these journalists have done. That's the simplest (and probably a little inaccurate) explanation I can give.[/QUOTE] What I don't understand about all the controversy is why what she did matters. Any artist will tell you that the best way to promote your work is to make interpersonal connections in the industry to promote your stuff. Intimate relationships between creators and industry insiders are a daily occurrence. Now if journalists are acting in a way that goes against their own claimed standards then we have a problem, but that's not what's been dominating the discussion. By far the vast majority of people's hate has been targeted at Quinn, as if it has ever been her job to uphold Kotaku's journalistic integrity. Honestly, what she did in relation to her game only (so ignoring the cheating, that's definitely wrong, but has nothing to do with gaming) was perfectly fine. And this is why I will always believe the stance that a lot of this controversy stems from misogyny. If this had been a male developer sleeping with a female journalist to promote his game can anyone here truly say with 100% sincerity that the developer would be the one bearing the brunt of the criticism? Think about how the internet works and how the loudest voices on it think. I can almost guarantee that there would be hourly threads on reddit about "the slutty journalist that'll do anything to budge in on the games industry" or the like. I trust some people probably stopped reading at "misogyny" but that's been another problem throughout this debate - so many people, redditors and 4chan users especially, have used this event to finally confirm and solidify their strange belief that feminism is society's #1 enemy and will immediately lump anyone who dares bring up the gender angle in with the SJW boogeyman and no longer feel the need to listen to them.

[QUOTE=_Axel;45856228]There are a lot of people who are being abused and bullied by the pro-Zoe side in the name of "social justice", not to mention all the manipulating and lying she does to get her twitter army to do her bidding, and instead of exposing it, the press likes to pretend that she and her followers are the paragon of tolerance and that the only ones who are dishing abuse are the misogynistic, pasty white virgin pig gamers. Some people are being literally abused and blamed at the same time, the kind of behavior that actual feminists and defenders of social justice have tried to fight against for years. What do you think it would feel like, being one of these abuse victims, being told that their pain doesn't exist and that they are the ones who are intolerant? The mere though of it makes me physically want to puke. I wonder how actual abuse survivors can stomach it. This is what concerns me the most, why I care so much. Other people may be in it for other reasons, though.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Mingebox;45856315]I just see so many people with a fake and self-serving idea of righteousness enabling other horrible people because they care more about being on the right side than doing the right thing. All I want to see is enough truth to come out that they can't keep up this facade of being well meaning progressives under siege by evil reactionary gamers, and are hopefully forced by deciding between admitted they were wrong or continuing to enable, and their unified front falls apart as people break ranks.[/QUOTE] I just want to clarify that I was mostly talking about the corruption in journalism side of this scandal. I understand that they are related in this case, but I never meant to imply that people shouldn't care and be outraged by abuse enablers and co-opting of movements. I only wanted to point out that we shouldn't bemoan the falling standards of gaming news sites when better alternatives exist.

[QUOTE=TheCombine;45855373]It's funny because feminists themselves have a name for this. [Tone Argument][/QUOTE] Technically it's not entirely wrong though, that's why I wrote that huge post about how to contact advertisers. (The proper response is obviously to shift your tone to pander to your current audience while not losing sight of your goals even a bit, and without replying to it directly. Your audience isn't always the one you're [I]saying[/I] you're sending the message to though.) Sarkeesian would be utterly failing at this if she was actually addressing gamers or video game developers, but the completely overblown fearmongering she wraps her statements into is [I]perfect[/I] for the social justice crowd. (No offence Reimu, but I really think there's a huge issue of not fact-checking in those circles. That includes reactions to everything where someone is portrayed in a negative light, not just the current weaponisation of victim status.)

[QUOTE=Zeke129;45856426] If this had been a male developer sleeping with a female journalist to promote his game can anyone here truly say with 100% sincerity that the developer would be the one bearing the brunt of the criticism? [/QUOTE] Yes, I can say with certainty if it was just, Phil Fish for example, the same exact thing would happen. Stuff like this happens because of the way the subject reacts to it, regardless of their gender.

From all the picture's of SJW's getting in argument's with gamers on twitter and seeing as they only insult gamers kind of reminded me of this - [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0[/URL]

[QUOTE=Zeke129;45856426]What I don't understand about all the controversy is why what she did matters. Any artist will tell you that the best way to promote your work is to make interpersonal connections in the industry to promote your stuff. Intimate relationships between creators and industry insiders are a daily occurrence. Now if journalists are acting in a way that goes against their own claimed standards then we have a problem, but that's not what's been dominating the discussion. By far the vast majority of people's hate has been targeted at Quinn, as if it has ever been her job to uphold Kotaku's journalistic integrity. Honestly, what she did in relation to her game only (so ignoring the cheating, that's definitely wrong, but has nothing to do with gaming) was perfectly fine. And this is why I will always believe the stance that a lot of this controversy stems from misogyny. If this had been a male developer sleeping with a female journalist to promote his game can anyone here truly say with 100% sincerity that the developer would be the one bearing the brunt of the criticism? Think about how the internet works and how the loudest voices on it think. I can almost guarantee that there would be hourly threads on reddit about "the slutty journalist that'll do anything to budge in on the games industry" or the like. I trust some people probably stopped reading at "misogyny" but that's been another problem throughout this debate - so many people, redditors and 4chan users especially, have used this event to finally confirm and solidify their strange belief that feminism is society's #1 enemy and will immediately lump anyone who dares bring up the gender angle in with the SJW boogeyman and no longer feel the need to listen to them.[/QUOTE] Dude we flipped out on Phil Fish for waaay less. And as someone's whose spoken to artists, they [B]hate[/B] the system of connections that are in place.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;45856426]And this is why I will always believe the stance that a lot of this controversy stems from misogyny. If this had been a male developer sleeping with a female journalist to promote his game can anyone here truly say with 100% sincerity that the developer would be the one bearing the brunt of the criticism? Think about how the internet works and how the loudest voices on it think. I can almost guarantee that there would be hourly threads on reddit about "the slutty journalist that'll do anything to budge in on the games industry" or the like. I trust some people probably stopped reading at "misogyny" but that's been another problem throughout this debate - so many people, redditors and 4chan users especially, have used this event to finally confirm and solidify their strange belief that feminism is society's #1 enemy and will immediately lump anyone who dares bring up the gender angle in with the SJW boogeyman and no longer feel the need to listen to them.[/QUOTE] She's not an innocent developer who had no choice but to do compromises in order to have her game take off. She purposely released her game on the day of Robin William's death to gain more popularity. She pinned her harassment on Wizardchan to victimize herself and gain more funding. She criticized the policy of a feminist charity, didn't allow them to discuss the matter with her, and then bragged about "DDOSing their site on accident", when talking about an attack which allegedly cost them about 10,000$ in funds. She then launched her own game jam, with no explanation or guidelines but a "Donate" button leading directly to her personal paypal account. Her own PR counselor, Maya Felix Kramer, has been called out for being an emotionally manipulative person who used trickery and slander to further her own career. If she was just a standard developer who happened to be involved in a case of integrity breach, she wouldn't deserve all the attention she gets. But here I don't think she should be able to get away with all she's done.

Update: final version, with underlining for important areas. If we can put this in the OP, would be great. Unfortunately I cannot edit the pastebin, although the pastebin has the first summary anyway. [thumb]http://i.imgur.com/tMqitwU.png[/thumb]

[QUOTE=Zeke129;45856426]And this is why I will always believe the stance that a lot of this controversy stems from misogyny. If this had been a male developer sleeping with a female journalist to promote his game can anyone here truly say with 100% sincerity that the developer would be the one bearing the brunt of the criticism? Think about how the internet works and how the loudest voices on it think. I can almost guarantee that there would be hourly threads on reddit about "the slutty journalist that'll do anything to budge in on the games industry" or the like. I trust some people probably stopped reading at "misogyny" but that's been another problem throughout this debate - so many people, redditors and 4chan users especially, have used this event to finally confirm and solidify their strange belief that feminism is society's #1 enemy and will immediately lump anyone who dares bring up the gender angle in with the SJW boogeyman and no longer feel the need to listen to them.[/QUOTE] I'd like to point you to the AGDQ debacle, where some dude screwed his best friend's wife. It had no impact on anything (except their marriage) yet /v/ made his life hell. Not like it'll ever change your mind though.

[QUOTE=Swilly;45856538]Dude we flipped out on Phil Fish for waaay less. And as someone's whose spoken to artists, they [B]hate[/B] the system of connections that are in place.[/QUOTE] Systems of connection will always benefit some and not benefit some others. As has been seen by this, people not joining the normal "indie-zone" recieve threats of their games etc etc. Thats why those kind of connections are bad imo.