Corruption in gaming journalism discussion and update thread. - General

[QUOTE=Reimu;45856401]So, someone asked on /v/ to make a summary of the Maya Felix Kramer call out. I decided to go ahead and make this updated image. Can I have some feedback on it? Is it still too much text in the summary? [thumb]http://i.imgur.com/5aIDu2z.png[/thumb][/QUOTE] I think it's concise, but it looks fairly long in the thumbnail. Experiment with the formatting a bit, maybe put a large (2-3 blank lines) break between the parts and maybe after the "TL:DR SUMMARIES:" line. That's going to make it looks like an even more convenient read than it already is, so that people won't get the "wall of text" fatigue just from glancing at it.

[QUOTE=G-Strogg;45856679]Systems of connection will always benefit some and not benefit some others. As has been seen by this, people not joining the normal "indie-zone" recieve threats of their games etc etc. Thats why those kind of connections are bad imo.[/QUOTE] If we can stop them from forming up in the Gaming Industry, this might give solid experience to rip a new on in other industries as well.

[QUOTE=Reimu;45856618]Update: final version, with underlining for important areas. If we can put this in the OP, would be great. Unfortunately I cannot edit the pastebin, although the pastebin has the first summary anyway. [thumb]http://i.imgur.com/tMqitwU.png[/thumb][/QUOTE] The next time you do this, try using a highlight- or tint-tool and apply it to rectangles, with a somewhat brighter colour (either yellow or desaturated red). The red lines you currently have make it difficult to focus on the text, especially since they aren't all that well aligned and cut into certain letters.

Not that many of you will care, the Zoe Quinn thread over on Screw Attack got locked, it was pretty shit, so I've messaged an admin to see if me/him/we/he can open a new thread for the discussion of the entire thing, rather than just Zoe

[QUOTE=BigPalooka;45856503]Yes, I can say with certainty if it was just, Phil Fish for example, the same exact thing would happen. Stuff like this happens because of the way the subject reacts to it, regardless of their gender.[/QUOTE] Phil Fish didn't sleep with a female journalist. I'm not saying men are immune from the internet's criticism, I'm saying that when sex is involved people usually consider the woman to be at fault because of a fairly widespread notion that women are the gatekeepers of sex. The Quinn thing blew up because it plays right into the belief held by a lot of young men that women are using sex to manipulate them and the world around them. Misogyny doesn't fuel the fire of every gaming-related scandal but we're doing a disservice to the debate to prohibit the suggestion that it's fueling [i]this one[/i].

here, after talking with folks from /v/, this is what we ended up deciding on: [thumb]http://i.imgur.com/Ageb3fi.png[/thumb]

[QUOTE=Zeke129;45856816]Phil Fish didn't sleep with a female journalist. I'm not saying men are immune from the internet's criticism, I'm saying that when sex is involved people usually consider the woman to be at fault because of a fairly widespread notion that women are the gatekeepers of sex. [/QUOTE] If a guy was cheating on 5 different women most people would shit on him pretty hard and rightfully so.

[QUOTE=Intoxicated Spy;45856421]Sadly, that is the problem here. They have no idea how 4chan works.[/QUOTE] 4chan runs on oppression and misogyny!

[QUOTE=Zeke129;45856816]Phil Fish didn't sleep with a female journalist. I'm not saying men are immune from the internet's criticism, I'm saying that when sex is involved people usually consider the woman to be at fault because of a fairly widespread notion that women are the gatekeepers of sex. The Quinn thing blew up because it plays right into the belief held by a lot of young men that women are using sex to manipulate them and the world around them. Misogyny doesn't fuel the fire of every gaming-related scandal but we're doing a disservice to the debate to prohibit the suggestion that it's fueling [i]this one[/i].[/QUOTE] Honestly it's hard to deny that a portion of people pushing the scandal are pretty damn misogynistic. But labeling all of it a misogynistic is pretty ridiculous.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;45856816] Misogyny doesn't fuel the fire of every gaming-related scandal but we're doing a disservice to the debate to prohibit the suggestion that it's fueling [i]this one[/i].[/QUOTE] There are many reasons one can get involved in this, if you're gonna stand there and use a blanket excuse instead of actually calling out specific people you're not creating a discussion, you're putting out a red herring. Yes, there are douchebags within the movment that are completely being misogynistic shit heads and any time I've seen it I've called them out on it in both this thread and larger thread in SH. You can't police people, you can't police a mob so all we can do is go in for our own reasons and hope that's enough. If you're willing to blanket statement that, I dunno how we can have a discussion about that.

Shit, Ariel Connor just RT'd the improved version. Get ready for the mini-happening.

[QUOTE=Reimu;45856969]Shit, Ariel Connor just RT'd the improved version. Get ready for the mini-happening.[/QUOTE] link?

[QUOTE=Reimu;45856844]here, after talking with folks from /v/, this is what we ended up deciding on: [thumb]http://i.imgur.com/Ageb3fi.png[/thumb][/QUOTE] This is [B]much[/B] better. I have to remember the bit about adding eye-catches.

Don't want to post to my actual twitter since I don't want anyone hounding me, but here's Ariel's: [url]https://twitter.com/MissAngerist/status/506218326016921600[/url]

I love how as time goes by the plot thickens even more, I imagine there's going to be a lot of changes at some of these companies once this is all over

[QUOTE=Zeke129;45856816]Phil Fish didn't sleep with a female journalist. I'm not saying men are immune from the internet's criticism, I'm saying that when sex is involved people usually consider the woman to be at fault because of a fairly widespread notion that women are the gatekeepers of sex. The Quinn thing blew up because it plays right into the belief held by a lot of young men that women are using sex to manipulate them and the world around them. Misogyny doesn't fuel the fire of every gaming-related scandal but we're doing a disservice to the debate to prohibit the suggestion that it's fueling [i]this one[/i].[/QUOTE] I would disagree. It seems to me that a lot of the rage is directed at the journalists themselves. I obviously can't speak for everyone but as far as I think, the journalists are just as equally guilty, if not more so, than Zoe herself. This is because they have professional standards to live up to. I'm not denying that there are those with an agenda, on both sides. There are sick people out there, who would disparage women, Quinn, Anita, all of them. There is legit hatred going on and we should seek to discourage such sentiments. We should not let their efforts discourage us from getting to the heart of the legitimate issues.

[QUOTE=Idzo;45856857]4chan runs on oppression and misogyny![/QUOTE] Well, it is the Cathedral of Misogyny, so i would expect nothing less.

[QUOTE=Teddybeer;45857060]Don't forget your roots when you become e-famous.[/QUOTE] I'll always have the DOOM image edit to remind me :v:

[QUOTE=Mr. N;45856873]Honestly it's hard to deny that a portion of people pushing the scandal are pretty damn misogynistic. But labeling all of it a misogynistic is pretty ridiculous.[/QUOTE] Speaking of Misogyny, I really don't get (as in completely don't understand) people who play games who are actively misogynistic, (the whole misogynistic tropes is a whole other issue tied to sociological and biological stuff that I don't even want to get into) or hell, bigoted in any way, If I'm playing a game with someone, what matters most is their ability to play, anything else, race, gender, sexual oritentation, everything else, gets thrown out the window as it simply doesn;t fucking matter. Maybe I'm just lucky to not be as idiotic as those people, or lucky enough to have been surrounded by people of different genders all my gaming life. Hell, I remember one time in Mechwarrior, I was ina clan and we had one female gamer, who I always paired up with as the scout/recon wing of our clan, it didn't matter what gender or anything she was, because it was simply genuine fun and pleasure to team up with her. One day, ahead of a clan battle, the other clan was giving us shit for having a girl in one of our Stars (5 person squad in Mechwarrior), which upset her and pissed me the fuck off, so, after giving her a bit of a pep talk, and talking to the Khan (clan leader) our entire team proceeded to step back and let just me and her take the field. Long story short, we wiped the floor with them, So both me and her just had to rub it in that the girl they so viciously attacked, was responsible for wiping out half their entire team. tl;dr: from my perspective as far as gaming and real world goes, it doesn't matter who you are, but HOW you are. And I'm glad I'm wired that way rather than the pricks who have a problem with it.

[QUOTE=Mr. N;45856873]Honestly it's hard to deny that a portion of people pushing the scandal are pretty damn misogynistic. But labeling all of it a misogynistic is pretty ridiculous.[/QUOTE] Basically what you said. Due to the internet's nature of being anonymous, there will always be despicable groups that latch on to any real cause and start preaching their hateful opinions. That doesn't mean that the main movement is wrong though. And that's the problem with this whole debacle. The pro-Zoe side of the argument can't seem to grasp that not everyone criticizing Zoe is a misogynist.

[QUOTE=FunnyBunny;45857145]And that's the problem with this whole debacle. The pro-Zoe side of the argument can't seem to grasp that not everyone criticizing Zoe is a misogynist.[/QUOTE] Or that this isn't only about Zoe Quinn.

[QUOTE=Ownederd;45856136]I'm actually confused if this post is satire or not. There's no dreaded "SJW underworld" as you make it out to be.[/QUOTE] I put SJW in brackets for a reason. These people don't give a shit about social justice, they're just pushing an agenda. They rally the mindless tumblr hordes by pretending they're fighting for feminism, equality and what not.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;45856816]Phil Fish didn't sleep with a female journalist. I'm not saying men are immune from the internet's criticism, I'm saying that when sex is involved people usually consider the woman to be at fault because of a fairly widespread notion that women are the gatekeepers of sex. The Quinn thing blew up because it plays right into the belief held by a lot of young men that women are using sex to manipulate them and the world around them. Misogyny doesn't fuel the fire of every gaming-related scandal but we're doing a disservice to the debate to prohibit the suggestion that it's fueling [I]this one[/I].[/QUOTE] You're right in this sense. I don't think this whole thing would have blown up if Zoe Quinn was the one who was cheated on by this guy and this guy had made some game. It's very hard to pick a side here because I don't deny that there are many who are misogynist in this drama yet have a legitimate point to make here. I think there is definitely some misogynist attitudes being spread and some who feel vindicated in their views by the fact that a small subgroup of feminists have done something that they can say lacks integrity But as you said if we don't consider both sides of the debate we're doing a disservice to it. Here's how I see it. If you're a non-heterosexual or non-cisgendered person who is passionate about the games industry then up until recent years there has been precious little to relate to in the most conservative entertainment industry in the Western world. That's a pretty tough break. FP itself has a pretty healthy gay and transgendered community and while i'm neither gay nor transgendered I think it's pretty obvious that gay and transgendered gamers need some representation in a culture they participate in actively. In recent years they've been provided this with public figures like Anita Sarkeesian, Zoe Quinn, Maya whats her face, etc, and as soon as these people began working on discussing social equality and social justice in video games it became pretty clear that the industry was rampantly misogynist. Anita Sarkeesian didn't disable comments on her videos without a reason. She was getting death threats before this whole thing blew up just for talking about the fucking idea. It's 2014. No industry should be this way but for some reason this one is and any person promoting discussion of this at the time held a standard of integrity for a lot of people passionate about the industry who felt they weren't being properly represented. These people publicly represent, and choose to represent a subset of gamers who desperately need some representation. I can't imagine being a non-hetero/non-cis person right now when allegations have been brought to light that these people who have publicly represented a cause that I find to be so important have willfully engaged in corruption, fraternization, censorship, and are now writing for sites and getting cozy with people who have public histories of sexual harassment and sexist behaviour. I don't know about you guys but if I were in that situation I'd feel like I've just been thrown under a bus right now.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;45856816]Phil Fish didn't sleep with a female journalist. I'm not saying men are immune from the internet's criticism, I'm saying that when sex is involved people usually consider the woman to be at fault because of a fairly widespread notion that women are the gatekeepers of sex. The Quinn thing blew up because it plays right into the belief held by a lot of young men that women are using sex to manipulate them and the world around them. Misogyny doesn't fuel the fire of every gaming-related scandal but we're doing a disservice to the debate to prohibit the suggestion that it's fueling [i]this one[/i].[/QUOTE] Speaking only on my own behalf, it's exactly this kind of reaction that makes this scandal so frustrating. Tell me: how much does a woman have to abuse her own sexuality for it to become a point of debate? How big of a controversy does she have to be in the center of before her actions are fair game for scrutiny? Is it the fact that the controversy involves a woman and sex? Does the combination of womanhood and sex make a person untouchable? This isn't about how many guys Zoe has slept with. Literally the only reason people use the "five guys" namesake is because it's funny and catchy. Nobody that I've heard weigh in on this issue has actually taken issue with that. This isn't about policing women's sexuality. At least, it isn't about policing the number of sexual partners she's had. This isn't a "purity" thing. It has nothing to do with how many. It has everything to do with who and for what reason. Should this be only about Quinn? Of course not. It hasn't been only about Quinn. All criticism I've heard around this controversy has pretty much been a round-robin grilling of everyone involved. The only reason Quinn is the poster-child of this whole debacle is because she's the literal center of it.

[QUOTE=killerteacup;45857632] Here's how I see it. If you're a non-heterosexual or non-cisgendered person who is passionate about the games industry then up until recent years there has been precious little to relate to in the most conservative entertainment industry in the Western world. That's a pretty tough break. FP itself has a pretty healthy gay and transgendered community and while i'm neither gay nor transgendered I think it's pretty obvious that gay and transgendered gamers need some representation in a culture they participate in actively.[/QUOTE] Can you give me some examples of widespread discrimination? I really have yet to hear of any active discrimination against lgbt that isn't people calling an lgbt person an idiot on an issue that has nothing to do with their sexuality. Also, how exactly is the gaming industry the most conservative entertainment industry in the world? Even large companies like EA games allow you to play as a gay character in a couple of their games and a good few games have some well developed female and LGBT supporting characters. When I look at the films I've watched the only trans characters that really come to mind have been rapists who've gone insane or drag queens who serve a comedy role. With gaming I've at least not seen that trend and have seen characters that could be assumed to be trans. The [URL="https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gaymercon/gx3-everyone-games"]kickstarter[/URL] for Gaymer Con 3 is well on its way to getting more funding than ever without anybody actively trying to stop it as well. Its pretty clear that there is room for progress but I don't think its fair to describe the gaming community or industry as something completely sexist and anti-lgbt.

The industry is pretty rough for those of us who are trans, women, queer, trans feminine, people of color, disabled, etc. However I don't personally consider it progressive when our representatives in the industry end up being abusive, dishonest, and unethical. It creates a hostile and unsafe internal environment among marginalized identities, in which a clique's gatekeepers get to decide whether a vulnerable person is a.) Embraced by the social justice community, or b.) Thrown to the regressive and oppressive hounds, with no support from the group. You have to understand why the ZQ/Maya Felix clique is dangerous: it's conditional support. It creates a power dynamic where inclusivity and support is granted based on adhering to the desires and needs of the gatekeepers. It's not just an abuse of power, these gatekeepers utilize exclusion as a threat: controlling other marginalized identities via a fear of being excluded from the support network. It's sinister and unhealthy. It's not good social justice. It benefits no one but the gatekeeper and their cohorts in power.

So apparently people are already spreading rumors that Zoe is going to stage an attack on herself during PAX Prime to discredit "white male gamers". Part of me hopes she does go through with it because even if she does manage to convince people that she contacted the authorities when she really didn't, the authorities would end up hearing about it anyway, say "no, nobody reported this to us", investigate, and reveal her as a liar, putting an end to this fucking trainwreck of a story once and for all.

OMG LOL [url]https://twitter.com/patrickklepek/status/506259059558064128/photo/1[/url]

[QUOTE=warneccruid;45858344]OMG LOL [URL]https://twitter.com/patrickklepek/status/506259059558064128/photo/1[/URL][/QUOTE] [quote]the internet would like to apologize for not showing up to your panel where you make fun of them.[/quote] Ouch.

[QUOTE=warneccruid;45858344]OMG LOL [url]https://twitter.com/patrickklepek/status/506259059558064128/photo/1[/url][/QUOTE] What was the panel about? Was it the one about mocking game journalism?