Corruption in gaming journalism discussion and update thread.
15,084 replies, posted
From what I've seen mentioned by people only tangentially related to the TFYC stuff, they refused to support it because they thought it was exclusionary, whether it is or not, I don't know, but I know people who don't like or know Zoe Quinn also opposed it and that should say at least something.
Claiming these public people do nothing to help women is pretty bizarre because it isn't true. There are a lot of workshops for teaching women and girls how to code, there are conventions which focus on queer and minority developers and their games, people like Anita Sarkeesian promote these events frequently. Whether you think these events have an unsuitable approach or not is a different question, but there are definitely several of them that aren't The Fine Young Capitalists, and that also, in all likelihood aren't in the pocket of some famous person.
Please don't say criticism is just complaining, criticism is looking at something analytically from an outside perspective, whther you believe certain criticism is good or bad does not matter as to whether it is legitimate or not. In the same way argumentation isn't necessarily about convicing people, (I wouldn't be doing this if I thought I would convince anyone here) it's just as often about exploring opinions on a topic.
I don't think Leigh Alexander is wrong often, but I think she often can be unnecessarily cruel, so my opinion of her is constantly in flux, but you don't have to love or hate people to appreciate what their message is.
[QUOTE=Reimu;46131680][...] I highly suggest watching my series on the post. It's 2 hours long, but you should see what you need within 10 or 12 apiece:
[noparse][Media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM6u-ZPVmSw[/media]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_UKErD0uGQ[/media][/noparse][/QUOTE]
You mixed up the order while embedding them.
I can vouch for at least the first video absolutely being worth the time spent; I haven't seen the second yet.
[QUOTE=meazum;46131774]From what I've seen mentioned by people only tangentially related to the TFYC stuff, they refused to support it because they thought it was exclusionary, whether it is or not, I don't know, but I know people who don't like or know Zoe Quinn also opposed it and that should say at least something.[/QUOTE]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiWADnV8pmw[/media]
Point me to one article in any of those sites (Kotaku, Polygon, etc) that is promoting women in game development workshops and I'll agree with you 100% on everything you say, meazum.
[QUOTE=meazum;46131774]From what I've seen mentioned by people only tangentially related to the TFYC stuff, they refused to support it because they thought it was exclusionary, whether it is or not, I don't know, but I know people who don't like or know Zoe Quinn also opposed it and that should say at least something.[/QUOTE]
That was some misunderstanding on the use of labels, IIRC. That's been addressed by TFYC several months ago and doesn't really mean anything.
[QUOTE]Claiming these public people do nothing to help women is pretty bizarre because it isn't true. There are a lot of workshops for teaching women and girls how to code, there are conventions which focus on queer and minority developers and their games, people like Anita Sarkeesian promote these events frequently. Whether you think these events have an unsuitable approach or not is a different question, but there are definitely several of them that aren't The Fine Young Capitalists, and that also, in all likelihood aren't in the pocket of some famous person.[/QUOTE]
Why is TFYC blatantly ignored, then? It seems like a perfect opportunity to support their own cause.
[QUOTE]I don't think Leigh Alexander is wrong often, but I think she often can be unnecessarily cruel, so my opinion of her is constantly in flux, but you don't have to love or hate people to appreciate what their message is.[/QUOTE]
When people are fighting for a cause, I trust them to believe fully in it. LA pretending to support SJ and then tweeting some borderline racist stuff doesn't really help her cause. Seems to me that she's more into it to have internet visibility -i.e. "being a megaphone"- and be able to lash on people with the support of her clique than to genuinely improve the social situation.
A rule of thumb to me is to adhere to the precepts you put forward. If you promote tolerance and progressiveness, favor level-headed discussions and debates over aggressive authoritarianism. A lot of people in AGG don't seem to get that.
[url]http://www.polygon.com/2014/7/30/5952139/the-hole-story-girls-make-games-all-girls-game-camp-the-negatives[/url]
[url]http://www.polygon.com/2013/11/7/5077416/opinion-we-need-more-spaces-like-the-queerness-and-games-conference[/url]
Found these two, I don't really read kotaku particularly much so I would have to look a bit more for that.
I hope you don't suddenly agree with me because of this though :v
T-time to change my entire belief system :rolleyes:
I think people probably get a bit tired on what seems like an endless tirade about how bad sexism is. But these people are passionate about that, so they will write about that. And the tendency for it to be negative is just the shitty nature of the press. News media is always gloomy or upset about everything, it's how to get your attention.
That's the good shit about Gamasutra, I find it has consistently interesting articles that aren't just about outrage or hype. There's a lot of spite you could have against the writers of the site, but they do deliver very interesting stuff.
[QUOTE=meazum;46131916][url]http://www.polygon.com/2014/7/30/5952139/the-hole-story-girls-make-games-all-girls-game-camp-the-negatives[/url]
[url]http://www.polygon.com/2013/11/7/5077416/opinion-we-need-more-spaces-like-the-queerness-and-games-conference[/url]
Found these two, I don't really read kotaku particularly much so I would have to look a bit more for that.
I hope you don't suddenly agree with me because of this though :v[/QUOTE]
To be honest it's quite sad that Polygon and other publications rarely discuss this. It's rarely reported on, which is quite alarming.
[QUOTE=adnzzzzZ;46131658]I actually agree with them. I'm a big believer in games being more than what they are now and I'm an amateur game developer too. But there's a difference between trying to push your idea in a fair and responsible way and doing what they're doing. If you're going to complain about sexism in the game's industry and community, don't just say gamers are to blame, actively do things to promote more women to become game developers. No game journalist does that, and when a project comes along (TFYC) that tries to do just that it gets shut down by journalists. How serious are they about solving the sexism problem if they don't support people who wanna help more women become game developers?
What they're doing is just complaining about social issues using gaming as a platform, but they're never really proposing any real solutions. It's just complaining and complaining and complaining. It doesn't add anything and it doesn't help anyone. And it actually makes situations like #gamergate happen, which makes everything worse in the long run. How many people do you think after this will just outright discard any social issues talk in gaming? Way more than before. How sexist do you think the gaming community will become after this? Way more than before. All they did was damage. By trying to help they made things worse.
If you're a public figure you have the responsibility to act in a way that is beneficial to society. If you can't do that then you shouldn't be in a position of power. If you can't see the damage they've done and you actually support them then you're being just as blind as they are to how massively they fucked up and how much they've made things worse for women, gay people, trans people and whatever else. After this there's not going to be much more talk about social issues because they fucked up.[/QUOTE]
Thank you, nice to see somebody said it. I outline this quite a bit in that book I mentioned earlier, particularly "feeding the flame" from both sides. I think the primary issue here is the complaining and whining with no real handle on the subject. See Anita - She had never even played a videogame before [As she said during a college lecture, apart from Mario] starting her campaign against gaming anti-feminism. [url=http://www.newstatesman.com/sites/default/files/images/sarkeesian-video-games-800x800%5B1%5D.jpg]She was gifted hundreds of games and consoles[/url] after she claimed she was being harassed during her kickstarter campaign as well! Still, she got funded some 150,000 dollars and went on to.. make youtube videos, of herself complaining. However, when an [I]actual[/I] solution comes along that wants to help female developers into games it is deemed sexist by these same people. (Even Wikipedia went ahead and "confirmed" that stuff like TFYC were "radical feminists.") Understandably, this causes anger in both sides as the popular figures (echoing what you have said) fail to take responsibility and influence people in the wrong way, and in accordance, just causing more complaining. On the gamergate side, we see people who like to use viral tactics (Such as instantly using any quote or rumor and display as if it was truth until dispelled a few pages later, we ourselves are quite guilty of this.) in order to drum up more anger or support for their side. (The basis for many "Gamergate is reactionary!" quotes.)
[I]Techcruch's[/I] Allum Bokhari, a political consultant puts these things gloriously :
[quote][Culture Warriors] thrive in an atmosphere of fear and moral condemnation.[/quote]
[quote]The moderate arguments : - The rise of moral crusaders, with little to no opposition from the gaming media.
-Accusations that gamers are “anti-inclusive,” despite ample evidence that this is not the case.
-Demonization, mischaracterization, and abuse from members of the press.
-An inability to discuss any of the above issues on many popular online communities.
-A press that fails to report on both sides of a contentious story.
[/quote]
[quote][The current system] is not sustainable. As the actions of moderators become increasingly driven by personal biases, more and more information will accumulate in unmoderated spaces. [/quote]
These things need to be analyzed appropriately, by people [I]who know what they are talking about.[/I] The reason why I am writing that book is basically for these reasons, ever since I read the wikipedia article it truly proves that when internet culture attacks itself, real life politics become suddenly very relevant.
[QUOTE=meazum;46131996]But these people are passionate about that, so they will write about that. And the tendency for it to be negative is just the shitty nature of the press. News media is always gloomy or upset about everything, it's how to get your attention.
That's the good shit about Gamasutra, I find it has consistently interesting articles that aren't just about outrage or hype. There's a lot of spite you could have against the writers of the site, but they do deliver very interesting stuff.[/QUOTE]
Err I'd be skeptical of that. You should try to network with writers and industry workers, see what they have to say. I was warned by industry writers that male allies are really into writing about feminism in order to get brownie points and pick up women.
That's why many male writers are so heavy handed about SJ issues.
[QUOTE=meazum;46131774]
I don't think Leigh Alexander is wrong often, but I think she often can be unnecessarily cruel, so my opinion of her is constantly in flux, but you don't have to love or hate people to appreciate what their message is.[/QUOTE]
You know what, meazum, I'm going to give you that. Even though you came here and right off the bat called us all "angry nerds", you avoided criticizing GG by pulling low hanging fruits like Milo's hitler worshiping and right-wingers who jumped on the train. For that you have my respect.
[QUOTE=Reimu;46132021]Err I'd be skeptical of that. You should try to network with writers and industry workers, see what they have to say. I was warned by industry writers that male allies are really into writing about feminism in order to get brownie points and pick up women.
That's why many male writers are so heavy handed about SJ issues.[/QUOTE]
Some might legitimately agree with them rather then to get their respect, however I don't disagree that some of them are doing that.
[QUOTE=Reimu;46132021]
That's why many male writers are so heavy handed about SJ issues.[/QUOTE]
I think that's unfair generalization. While I'm personally a big fan of discrediting people based on "you just want a piece of vagina, you sad fuck", there's also such a thing as a "neophyte". Many people who are newly "converted" (and yes, a lot of people treat political belief systems and ideologies as religion, just take a look at libertarian camp) tend to be super zealous in telling people what they think.
Adam "Let me be sixth guy" Sessler might be of the former, those two guys from Giant Bomb are most certainly of the latter.
[QUOTE=meazum;46131774]From what I've seen mentioned by people only tangentially related to the TFYC stuff, they refused to support it because they thought it was exclusionary, whether it is or not, I don't know, but I know people who don't like or know Zoe Quinn also opposed it and that should say at least something.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://apgnation.com/archives/2014/09/09/6977/truth-gaming-interview-fine-young-capitalists[/url]
They refused to support it [I]because[/I] Zoe told them it was exclusionary, and they took her at her word without bothering to do their own research. She set up her own gamejam then and directed people to fund that instead. All its funds go to her own personal account.
[QUOTE=meazum;46131774]From what I've seen mentioned by people only tangentially related to the TFYC stuff, they refused to support it because they thought it was exclusionary, whether it is or not, I don't know, but I know people who don't like or know Zoe Quinn also opposed it and that should say at least something.[/QUOTE]
This is one of the few things where there's actually fairly hard evidence on and it's strictly in TFYC's favour where it exists.
They got their clause directly from organisations supporting transgender people, and when they got flak for it they only clarified it a bit more and didn't change its meaning.
It being exclusionary was something that was brought up by Quinn and Kramer (the latter is the one who did the "doxxing", which was done publicly on Twitter and archived/verifiable), and they never apologised and later lied about their involvement (which is also documented by impartial archive websites, but I'm a bit too lazy to look it up right now so I'll just give a short overview). They also have a fairly huge pull in the indie game/social justice intersection area, not everything that they effected will have their name on it directly.
("Doxxing" is in quotes because it really was more of an ad hominem attack against the project.
Apparently men aren't allowed to support women or something, that's the vibe I was getting from it at least.)
[QUOTE]Claiming these public people do nothing to help women is pretty bizarre because it isn't true. There are a lot of workshops for teaching women and girls how to code, there are conventions which focus on queer and minority developers and their games, people like Anita Sarkeesian promote these events frequently. Whether you think these events have an unsuitable approach or not is a different question, but there are definitely several of them that aren't The Fine Young Capitalists, and that also, in all likelihood aren't in the pocket of some famous person.[/QUOTE]
The criticism comes in more in activism that they do outside their circle, which is essentially all that counts with social issues because the "other party" is usually the problem. Sarkeesian's [I]Tropes vs Women in Video Games[/I] is 100% destructive criticism and contains tons of fabrications stemming from her trying to shove women into [I]the[/I] victim role no matter what.
This widens the divide, which goes directly against their stated goal of reducing stereotypes against women.
[QUOTE]Please don't say criticism is just complaining, criticism is looking at something analytically from an outside perspective, whther you believe certain criticism is good or bad does not matter as to whether it is legitimate or not. In the same way argumentation isn't necessarily about convicing people, (I wouldn't be doing this if I thought I would convince anyone here) it's just as often about exploring opinions on a topic.[/QUOTE]
Right, the only way criticism can be illegitimate is if it's based on fabrications or ulterior motives, or is attacking the creator and not the work. Which is exactly what the allegations are about.
Game journalists and "feminist" activists looking into gaming have been caught in tons of lies lately, which is undermining the points they are trying to make. (I include extremely blatant cherry-picking in fabrication of evidence if the conclusions that are drawn from it oppose the message of the original work.)
There are people out there who are feminists and base their activism on evidence and a wholesome evaluation of the situation (Christina Hoff Sommers and Emma Watson for example), but they are not as vocal as the extreme ones so every second 10+ line piece I see about Watson's speech is about how it's "selling out" or "tone policing" or "pleading to men" and stuff like that. Which is exactly what she opposed in one of the first few sentences of the speech iirc, in more ways than one.
There's also that [I]huge[/I], absolutely egregious, ad hominem attack/character assassination getting thrown around against gamers, which is pretty much the definition of illegitimate criticism. The aforementioned "gamers are dead" articles are only part of it, there are also comparisons with terrorists and blaming for entirely unrelated matters in order to discredit incriminating claims backed up with evidence.
(And yes, this has happened in smaller/disorganised instances as background noise everywhere, after all people are individuals. Radical feminists and Yiannopoulos are the only ones employing it on a larger scale to my knowledge.)
I agree with you on the point about argumentation to some extent, and it's definitely a good way to bridge gaps and move forward. However, I think that re-evaluating the own position and attempting to convince others of it are both integral parts of it.
One of the main problem I have with "feminists" is the tendency to not address points and not try to convince the other side based on the belief that they "have made up their mind" (I don't necessarily mean you with feminists-with-quotes, but there are problems with your approach.), simply because that way the argumentation doesn't move forward. In my opinion, you actually can hardly call it that in that case.
[QUOTE]I don't think Leigh Alexander is wrong often, but I think she often can be unnecessarily cruel, so my opinion of her is constantly in flux, but you don't have to love or hate people to appreciate what their message is.[/QUOTE]
This is what I think too, that's why I take into account what Yiannopoulos writes for example despite him being a giant idiot about other stuff, or why I say that I like Fez despite its most vocal creator spewing hatred everywhere.
(Well, "like" may be a bit overblown because a game-breaking bug stopped me at 99.#% completion. I really do like the art though.)
The issue for me comes in if the argument itself is flawed or hateful, which is the case with every single [I]Tropes vs Women[/I] video I've seen so far. I can see and agree with the core points she's trying to make in a lot of cases, because that's stuff that is visible with more insight into gaming once one's aware of it. However, the way she makes those points perpetuates the stereotypes probably about as much as the things she criticises in most cases, considering a lot of the "evidence" she brings up is misrepresented or outright fabricated (which she gets called out on but dismisses as misogynistic instead of looking into objective criticism). The problems are also far more subtle than what she says and on the decline, the only example that I've seen her bring up that was appalling, factual and not later counteracted was the stuff about that one Star Fox game. (I assume it wasn't fabricated because she's attacking a company that could easily fire back if wronged and Nintendo games [I]do[/I] have a history of stereotypical excuse plots.)
I still watch them and I read things that are more on the extreme side because sometimes there are good points, but considering that ad hominem is actually an effective tactic I have to assume that's not the case for most people. Getting personally insulted would make someone listen less than otherwise, same as blanket statements. Looking at arguments more critically if a person has been caught lying is a good choice though, since statistically it's more likely for them to continue lying than not.
[QUOTE=AlexDeviant;46129171]So why aren't we seeing a myriad of new actual game journalism site popping up? There are a lot of opportunities right now, devs have shown real support toward unbiased medias and even big company are starting to understand that all this corruption and bigotry can only lead to tarnishing their own names and are willing to act so..[/QUOTE]
Because it's more difficult than people think. Buying a domain name is easy, setting up Wordpress is easy, buying a not-shitty layout and installing it is easy. Finding the people to write articles, to take time out of their day to read press releases, to do confirmation research, to possibly learn how to use Wordpress as an admin or user, to have some act as editor-in-chief and approve all the articles and make sure they're up to standard, to possibly design their own website, is way harder. It takes a lot of time and more people probably are not up to the responsibility it takes to set something like that up or participate. People who do it for a living on sites like The Escapist are, presumably, getting paid for it by now too. If you started something today, you're not getting paid. You could not be getting paid for a long time too. It would simply be out of passion for wanting to see a better gaming news website and, again, some people don't want to deal with just being a passion project.
I think most people, like myself, will have their own blog and, if they get really into writing on it, will seek out places on their own to try to write for in the future. Having your own blog with a ton of writing on it looks good to people when you're trying to find a writing gig for another website.
[QUOTE=Banned?;46132270]Because it's more difficult than people think. Buying a domain name is easy, setting up Wordpress is easy, buying a not-shitty layout and installing it is easy. Finding the people to write articles, to take time out of their day to read press releases, to do confirmation research, to possibly learn how to use Wordpress as an admin or user, to have some act as editor-in-chief and approve all the articles and make sure they're up to standard, to possibly design their own website, is way harder. It takes a lot of time and more people probably are not up to the responsibility it takes to set something like that up or participate. People who do it for a living on sites like The Escapist are, presumably, getting paid for it by now too. If you started something today, you're not getting paid. You could not be getting paid for a long time too. It would simply be out of passion for wanting to see a better gaming news website and, again, some people don't want to deal with just being a passion project.
I think most people, like myself, will have their own blog and, if they get really into writing on it, will seek out places on their own to try to write for in the future. Having your own blog with a ton of writing on it looks good to people when you're trying to find a writing gig for another website.[/QUOTE]
Let's make a FP news site.
There's enough talented people all over these forums to recruit a worthvile staff
[QUOTE=Dick Slamfist;46130225]I kinda wish Yahtzee Croshaw stepped in and spoke in on this. He seems like he'd be against it or apathetic
then again he's besties with Jim Sterling so he's probably quiet[/QUOTE]
In his and Gabe's Thief Drown out they talk about it. But they stay neutral. Not the Jim "neutral" by the way.
[url]https://web.archive.org/web/20141002162020/http://www.theverge.com/2014/10/2/6886747/intel-buckles-to-anti-feminist-campaign-by-pulling-ads-from-gaming[/url]
More terrible anti-GG from The Verge.
Seriously, the opening line is fucking horseshit.
[quote]Intel has pulled an advertising campaign from video gaming website Gamasutra after it reportedly received a number of complaints from self-identified gamers [B]upset that the site was championing fair gender representation in video games.[/B][/quote]
[B]E:[/B] Holy fuck, the spin this article takes makes me fucking sick.
[QUOTE=Banned?;46132455][url]https://web.archive.org/web/20141002162020/http://www.theverge.com/2014/10/2/6886747/intel-buckles-to-anti-feminist-campaign-by-pulling-ads-from-gaming[/url]
More terrible anti-GG from The Verge.
Seriously, the opening line is fucking horseshit.
[B]E:[/B] Holy fuck, the spin this article takes makes me fucking sick.[/QUOTE]
Verge means dick in French. I guess that's fitting in the present case.
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/FYlVPmE.png[/IMG]
Intel CIO (who is female) responds to the Anti-GG side for pulling ads
[url]http://www.thekohlrabi.com/intel-cio-responds-criticism-anti-gaters/[/url]
Wahoo, let's see if they feature it in the subj-oh wait I already unsubscribed from The Verge's newsletter after the Dota 2 article.
"you may have received some bad hash in your pipe"
I see you and what you're doing. and I like it.
[QUOTE=Wii60;46132680]Intel CIO (who is female) responds to the Anti-GG side for pulling ads
[url]http://www.thekohlrabi.com/intel-cio-responds-criticism-anti-gaters/[/url][/QUOTE]
[quote]But if you truly feel that way, there’s always AMD…pfft! [/quote]
Shots fired, Shots fired
"Yeah, so. Gamasutra. You probably heard of us. Intel. We're spending a shit ton of cash to sponsor eSports teams and the biggest eSports league ESL. Maybe you have heard of the Intel Extreme Masters. Needless to say gamers are our target audience. Yeah, so about that "gamers are dead" article..."
[QUOTE=uber.;46132737]"Yeah, so. Gamasutra. You probably heard of us. Intel. We're spending a shit ton of cash to sponsor eSports teams and the biggest eSports league ESL. Maybe you have heard of the Intel Extreme Masters. Needless to say gamers are our target audience. Yeah, so about that "gamers are dead" article..."[/QUOTE]
Also the best part is intel cant be bullied by anyone, they are so integrated with shit all around the globe that this type of shit is nothing to them.
more nick statt insanity
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/0ShbAGk.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/KUp4Bqu.png[/IMG]
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