Corruption in gaming journalism discussion and update thread. - General

[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;46132362][URL="http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1421476"]People have already tried[/URL], and everyone has already lost interest.[/QUOTE] I haven't read the rest of this thread past this post, but from my understanding everyone has written their first reviews to be looked over by the Lead Writer. Atleast I have.

[QUOTE=Thlis;46134558]-image of leigh alxeander's wonderful tweets-[/QUOTE] my only issue with stuff like this is some of the older tweets look like people are just kinda digging around for any old trash they can dig up, I mean not that it changes what she said but I'm sure a lot of people said some really stupid shit in 2010 they'd never say or think now (not that im defending her at all)

[QUOTE=meazum;46133900]but I still believe her criticism stands on its own legs outside of that.[/QUOTE] Some people need to get their head checked if they honestly believe that discussing about fictional female characters is fightning for women's rights or something.

[QUOTE=Elstumpo;46134610]I haven't read the rest of this thread past this post, but from my understanding everyone has written their first reviews to be looked over by the Lead Writer. Atleast I have.[/QUOTE] One problem was doing that before they had any substantial amount of writers. Famitsu is a print publication, they have tons of people on staff already. To find five people to write a review for a website that doesn't even have a url yet is crazy. If it were me, I would dine something Game Informer does which is, with some of their reviews, they have a smaller "second opinion" box which could either be a matching a dissenting opinion on the game. That thread was way too optimistic and a lot of steps needed to be done before anyone would be reviewing anything.

[QUOTE=Thlis;46134558][img]http://i.imgur.com/xKlqIIm.png[/img][/QUOTE] Leigh "She's got Heil Hopes" Alexander up to her usual antics.

[QUOTE=EmperorVagak;46129626][URL]http://i.imgur.com/0o1uOPx.png[/URL] The problem with this bullcrap is that people say they're getting harassed but don't actually take any screenshots. You're not making yourself genuine and believable when you speak these sort of words. That is why they say you're lying.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Wii60;46129636]people tend to forget one of the most important rules in the internet pics or it didn't happen.[/QUOTE] It's entirely possible she received harassment, death threats, and rape threats because she spoke out against GamerGate. I receive death threats (and the occasional rape threat) when I do really well in a Battlefield 4 lobby. The problem is that Twitter (and the internet, but especially Twitter) lets anyone tag themselves as a voice for a message and say stupid shit. If you actually research the positions these people claim to hold, you can then say "Oh, GamerGate has nothing to do with hating women, or women at all. It's about corruption in games journalism and development". You can be pro-GamerGate and still think death threats and rape threats aren't acceptable. This whole thing has revealed that what was generally assumed by certain individuals to be an abyssal miasma of neckbearded manchildren pounding out "cunt" and "feminazi" on their keyboards can actually form a cohesive message that has nothing to do with sex or gender and in fact goes out of it's way to welcome everyone into the fold who happens to agree with them about the corruption and nepotism. I don't want to give the movement too much credit because it does get pretty echo-chamber sometimes (this thread suffers from it; everyone who criticizes anything or anyone about the movement seems to get a lot of boxes and few constructive replies ) but it's certainly not built around threats and harassment.

[QUOTE=Elstumpo;46134610]I haven't read the rest of this thread past this post, but from my understanding everyone has written their first reviews to be looked over by the Lead Writer. Atleast I have.[/QUOTE] I sent my own criticisms and anothers to the guy who made it, unfortunately it's a system that can make anybody lose a lot of interest, fast. Basically a "lead writer" compiles everyone's review into a single article after a month (unless of course, that lead writer disappears!); it's a system that needs tweaking and fast if the person who is organizing it wants to keep it going.

[QUOTE=Smt;46134629]my only issue with stuff like this is some of the older tweets look like people are just kinda digging around for any old trash they can dig up, I mean not that it changes what she said but I'm sure a lot of people said some really stupid shit in 2010 they'd never say or think now (not that im defending her at all)[/QUOTE] My issue is that she says these things in a public forum. If I were to hire someone to write for me, I don't give a fuck who they are when they're making thinly veiled statements that sound like "I really wanna call these guys niggers but it's Twitter and everyone can see it so I won't." And then go write attack articles on your demographic.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;46134964] I don't want to give the movement too much credit because it does get pretty echo-chamber sometimes (this thread suffers from it; everyone who criticizes anything or anyone about the movement seems to get a lot of boxes and few constructive replies ) but it's certainly not built around threats and harassment.[/QUOTE] boxes dont mean anything really. the replies on the other hand...

[QUOTE=goon165;46133576]And suddenly, we went from a small annoying misogynistic hate movement to big scary corporate shills. Not sure I have room for all these labels.[/QUOTE] No, I'm no shill. I just really like my new Intel™ Core i7-3820 Sandy Bridge-E Quad-Core 3.6GHz (3.8GHz Turbo Boost) LGA 2011 130W Desktop Processor

[QUOTE=Dermock;46135172]No, I'm no shill. I just really like my new Intel™ Core i7-3820 Sandy Bridge-E Quad-Core 3.6GHz (3.8GHz Turbo Boost) LGA 2011 130W Desktop Processor[/QUOTE] Wow, I gotta get me one of those new Intel™ Core i7-3820 Sandy Bridge-E Quad-Core 3.6GHz (3.8GHz Turbo Boost) LGA 2011 130W Desktop Processor for my next build! Thanks totally not-shill Dermock, what would I have done without you!

[QUOTE=bdd458;46135217]Wow, I gotta get me one of those new Intel™ Core i7-3820 Sandy Bridge-E Quad-Core 3.6GHz (3.8GHz Turbo Boost) LGA 2011 130W Desktop Processor for my next build! Thanks totally not-shill Dermock, what would I have done without you![/QUOTE] You're welcome fellow consumer I have never met before.

[QUOTE=Heldure;46135144]boxes dont mean anything really. the replies on the other hand...[/QUOTE] I don't mind the ratings, they are pixels. It's the lack of anything to bounce my ideas off of. If you think my post is dumb, tell me why. It comes across as disingenuous to have an extensive movement largely dedicated to free and honest discourse and then just rate everything you disagree with dumb.

[QUOTE=Thlis;46134558][img]http://i.imgur.com/xKlqIIm.png[/img][/QUOTE] How much of a thinly closeted racist is she?

[QUOTE=_Axel;46132781]I'm really baffled at the lack of professionalism displayed by those so-called journalists. Is it what they were taught to do in journalism school?[/QUOTE] A lot of these people aren't journalists, they're hedge fund babies who haven't the slightest idea of hardship or...anything really. These people are a blight on humanity, they have nothing to add, and many times end up making things worse as a result of their attitude. These people would have their shit pushed in hard if they acted half as brazen in public the way they act online, that's why you have Phil "The Ego" Fish grovelling like the beta fuck he is when somebody actually starts saying shit that he would say, except of course, directed at him. They aren't needed, and until people realize that, nothing will change.

[QUOTE=Banned?;46132455][url]https://web.archive.org/web/20141002162020/http://www.theverge.com/2014/10/2/6886747/intel-buckles-to-anti-feminist-campaign-by-pulling-ads-from-gaming[/url] More terrible anti-GG from The Verge.[/QUOTE] This is incredible. It's probably the most on the nose example of yellow journalism I've seen so far. A quick Google search can show you this has nothing to do with gender representation or feminism but the fact that Intel was advertising products and services on a site that was actively anti-gamer. This article doesn't even get a "Well maybe it was a misinterpretation" pass. They outright threw away everything related to the truth and fabricated their own story and posted it as news.

for those saying that GG is a right-wing movement [url]https://imgur.com/Qvo6Ost[/url]

[QUOTE=meazum;46133900]Now that's what I want to see! I don't want to discredit any criticism against Zoe Quinn, I'm sure there is legitimate concern about her and her friends' work ethics, I just want the people on the other side to see the difference between people like Patrick Klepek and Zoe Quinn, even if they have eachothers' backs, all unfounded potential accusations of nepotism within that context will just look like hatred against her if you claim she manipulates everybody who agrees with her. Don't throw me under the bus for this one, I am defending her, because I believe she has personally gotten unreasonable amounts of flack for something that seems to be an issue with ethics among the people in her vicinity, and less about her personally, this is not something I think because of a thing she told everyone, this is because I saw pretty intense amounts of harassment over a couple of weeks on twitter, that couldn't be called anything but harassment. (I hope you won't demand proof of this, because I didn't have any reason to collect it back when it happened) I wish people would leave her out of it as best as they can, but I am not saying this because I'm a fan of her activism particularly. I think her emotional manipulation was very cruel against her then boyfriend, and I sincerely wish it had never happened, adn that she seeks some kind of help. I think her lovecraft or hitler game is pretty great, I think Depression Quest is a fine idea, but I just don't really like her that much, dunno why, her sense of humour is kinda lame I guess.[/QUOTE] I think most people understand that, and one of the core mantras that are going around has been that people shouldn't care about Quinn. It was in the #GamerGate OP on /v/ for a while I think (should still be somewhere in the repository archive, but there are a lot of revisions), now it's in the [URL="https://github.com/GamerGateOP/GamerGateOP/blob/dc42052e972321207e495b547b6d7d3d85990cb5/FAQ.md"]FAQ[/URL]. [URL="https://github.com/GamerGateOP/GamerGateOP"]The repository itself[/URL] and [URL="https://github.com/GamerGateOP/GamerGateOP/issues"]its issues[/URL] aren't a bad way to keep up with the whole stuff from the GamerGate side, by the way. One issue is that the anti-GG "gamers are dead" pieces and so on keep trying to force the spotlight back onto her, and [URL="https://twitter.com/TheQuinnspiracy"]she herself also does a pretty good job at it[/URL]. (She seems to have reduced the amount of posting about the harassment she's getting, though.) I suspect it may be in part unintentional because Twitter bubbles and highlights where one is mentioned. Getting abusive phone calls looks huge but is pretty much noise with something of this scale, so the best option would probably just be to redirect calls with blocked numbers to the mailbox and not take them at [URL="https://archive.today/4H2uC"]4:30AM[/URL]... This harassment really is pretty much universally condemned, I think at this point you mostly have people who'd do that anyway but to someone else. There is also a huge amount of trolls jumping onto this and inciting hatred while posing as either of the sides. (Also imo [URL="https://archive.today/6Nmv0"]two calls in a night up to 4:30AM[/URL] is actually not a lot, compared to an issue that manages to keep going on the Internet for five weeks straight with actual semi-organised activism. Meanwhile one person [URL="https://twitter.com/j_millerworks/status/513198848542781440"]has apparently been fired[/URL] and another one says he [URL="https://twitter.com/Nero/status/512950178916339712"]got[/URL] [URL="https://twitter.com/Nero/status/513666683916255232/photo/1"]weird[/URL] [URL="https://twitter.com/Nero/status/513667076318588928/photo/1"]stuff[/URL] in the mail. Not trying to relativise in that last part, just to show that there's a certain "noise floor" that can't be attributed unilaterally.) [QUOTE]Although with regards to Sarkeesian's criticism. First off: I don't know the scholarly opinion on this, but ulterior motives seem to me like they aren't necessarily contradicting the purpose of criticism, the point that there is an ulterior motive can be put against a very large amount of popular critique within the games medium, so condemnation of a critique based on that, seems to me to be an overzealous approach when taking in criticism. I know why you would wish for it to be factual, but feminist analysis of the kind she is doing falls under philosoophy most of the time, and as such is very hard to prove or disprove, as it is mostly theorising.[/QUOTE] It depends. If your "ulterior motive" is your personal taste in games then it's just an opinion and can be presented as such. However, if the ulterior motive is something you have to keep hidden to get your point across (getting brownie points, pandering to a company supplying you with free games, giving your flatmate special treatment, getting paid to express a specific opinion, collusion) then that's skewing the reporting far beyond what's ethical. [QUOTE]I can understand why that would make people absolutely furious, as a lot of times it can come across as a baseless assumption intended to attack something to the reader/viewer, sometimes it might be. But when dealing with any exploration of philosophy you either listen or you don't, and then go on believing what you will. Criticising it is fair, but as with all criticism, you should avoid attacking people (I don't agree talking shit about male gamers is attacking, it's kinda dumb, but it's more a rhethorical device than an attack). I think Anita probably hasn't been too wise to call things out in the context of "gamer bros" to discredit them, but I still believe her criticism stands on its own legs outside of that. The authors intent behind the portrayal of a woman or situation in a game bears little relevance to what critique you can posit against it. Much critique that reaches into the realm of philosophy has existed in the cinema sphere, and it tends to explore intangibles about video violence or cultural portrayals, it is not illegitimate criticism even if the intent of the creator goes completely against the criticism. I can see the reasoning behind her arguments that there is some form of sexual violence in DX:HR, even if I think it is a strange thing to bring up, and it took me a couple of days to understand why she would, as it looks the exact same against men, this is because I believe there are oppressive structures at play that influence the perception of this portrayal just by it having the different characters presented on screen in their respective context, also it is related to the fact that very few jobs are made explicitly clear within the context of the game except prostitute, policeman or mercenary, so the majority of civilians are just civilians while some are prostitutes. Y'all probably don't agree, but I believe this. I don't watch her videos uncritically, but I sincerely appreciate her work and find she makes many good points, especially in the violence against women part 2 episode.[/QUOTE] I don't think people are mad about the philosophical part of it... or at least I know a lot of people who'd agree with her on that. The issue is that she outright lies in her justifications which, while also being a rhetorical device, is not exactly part of what one could condone in this context. I actually have seen this argument about something just being a rhetorical matter come up twice now, the first time in a really similar context... [URL="http://tamschi-replies.tumblr.com/post/97946612562/thepageofhopes-antisjwyellowfang-just-your"]Please excuse the harsher style[/URL], I easily get angry both about prejudice and wilful ignorance. Rhetoric is just a tool in the end, and some rhetorical devices like personal attacks, like tools like knives, are [I]very[/I] good for hurting someone. The former at a philosophical discussion is likely about as apt as the latter at a wrestling match. With either there's an outrage but the former is done a lot more for some reason; probably because damage to someone's reputation is not that immediately visible. Personally I think the DX:HR example one of the worst, to me the fact that other people don't have explicit jobs is a matter of distribution of resources/narrative detail. Whether using specifically prostitutes to highlight societal issues of poverty and exploitation is acceptable is a different matter but Sarkeesian doesn't address that and it would derail the thread to discuss it here. Feel free to PM me about this. (Another explanation is that prostitutes' occupation is naturally more visible than other civillians', since they work in the street and not office buildings which the player enters on combat missions and therefore in the employees absence afaik.) [QUOTE][...] I hope I don't piss people off here, because I really do appreciate the effort a fair few of you put into making your points clear, it just surprises me after seeing the situation on twitter, that people with this level of refinement and calm sense of argumentation would go under the same banner as the rest of gamer gate (Although I'm not sure all of you do). I don't think there is any way to look past the blind fury gamer gate inspired in its followers early on, and to some extent still does.[/QUOTE] You're definitely not, and that feeling is mutual :v: I think your experience on Twitter is because high-throughput social networks like it and Tumblr (and also Facebook and pretty much anything else where you can [I]follow[/I] and [I]search[/I], Google to a lesser extent) have built in confirmation bias to make visitors stay longer. If I open it with my follows and the hashtags I know about, all I see is harassment in the opposite direction if I don't make an effort to look someone's feed in particular (which tends to give me a mixed picture instead). The effect is lower here on Facepunch because this is a low-throughput forum without organic content. Naturally there's some tendency towards supporting #GamerGate because it's a gaming forum though. I think the ratings do a really good job at keeping the noise-level low, since anyone who comes here without informing themselves just gets a pile of boxes and one or two refuting posts instead of breaking off a page-long argument due to being an easy target. Exceptions would be MaxOfS2D and adnzzzzZ, but one of them is permabanned again and the other has been avoiding huge flame wars in favour of making really great points in an intelligible manner so far, for the most part. If you want to get an objective answer from a machine my suggestion would be to use [URL="https://duckduckgo.com/"]DuckDuckGo[/URL] and search in a way that's not a loaded question (e.g. looking up [I]gender representation[/I] instead of [I]misogyny[/I] [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gender_representation_in_video_games&oldid=627728657"]will give you a ton of sourced claims for both sides of the argument[/URL]). [QUOTE]I won't take sides with certain people in terms of what has happened on twitter, I think the ISIS thing was extremely stupid, but not too surprising as much like the harassment people have gotten back and forth, the short form delivery and public visibility makes people type some extremely bad stuff, and in this situation they'll have to stand their ground and defend themselves, it's suicide to give up in a mob. I try not to read things on twitter in terms of well formulated analysis, it's mostly what you would consider "shitposting." I just wish for people to be less mad, and for some of you to see the points of us people who disagree with InvestiGamer, or whoever else doing long videos on this.[/QUOTE] Right, that's that "noise floor" again. There's a bit of a problem if people [URL="https://archive.today/UJl5c"]use their jobs or connections at mainstream media to that end[/URL] though. (The author and the two women the article is about are involved in the Patreon network that's somewhat central to the issue, in fact she's directly giving money to Quinn and a few other journalists who've been writing hit-pieces targeting gamers.) Not giving up is not a justification to employ lies or slander, no matter what. Using those tactics is extremely destructive, with tons of collateral damage. At least to me, it seems at least doable to not personally attack someone. Tumblr and news websites are long-form, so there's no limit on what can be expressed there. Twitter has TwitLonger, but even without that it's entirely possible to be factual, even nuanced (albeit with some effort. I don't think I could pull off the latter in German). From what I've seen opposing viewpoints are definitely heard if presented in a somewhat agreeable manner or making good points backed with sources or studies, or just a coherent logic chain at least. The issue is that most people who oppose gamers very vocally don't enter the discussion in the first place and keep repeating their original claims with increasing volume. (I think it's worth noting that someone involved in this mess actually referred to themselves as megaphone, iirc.) The few people who actually did agree to come on streams or do interviews mostly just kept going on about how they are being harassed by everyone and how that's absolutely horrible etc, without addressing others' points. There's also [URL="https://archive.today/5Vj3I"]that article[/URL] where the author did interview Gjoni but, upon not getting the results he wanted, derailed the interview against marked resistance and completely cut almost all of the rest of the 14 page interview without mention. If you read the original, you'll see that a quote originally defending gamers not involved in harassment ("'There are people who are legitimately concerned about games journalism, who don't fall into either camp, and they also get brushed away,'") was taken out of context to make it seem to refer to people who are swept away and join in. The rest is just the author blatantly trying to force his opinion onto Gjoni, which is a common thread in the reporting on the issue. Yiannopoulos' articles include some fairly ridiculous jabs at liberals in general, but apart from that the pro #GG and impartial journalism sticks to the facts and doesn't resort to misrepresenting what someone says if there's no agreement between author and interviewee. (I think this is in part what's been fanning the flames over such a long period of time: The "damage control" employed by the people whose corruption is being revealed is actually one of the main issues people are so outraged about.)

[QUOTE=Wii60;46135624]for those saying that GG is a right-wing movement [url]https://imgur.com/Qvo6Ost[/url][/QUOTE] I've seen political leaning mentioned a lot lately, speaking as someone who has no intrest in American politics/general politics, why does it matter what you lean twoards politically?

[QUOTE=Rockeiro123;46135710]I've seen political leaning mentioned a lot lately, speaking as someone who has no intrest in American politics/general politics, why does it matter what you lean twoards politically?[/QUOTE] it's easy for those who are against it to dismiss it and call it bad. those who arn't knowledged in the movement can form biases against/for a movement due to it too. "Occupy wall street is full of liberal democrat pussies" "Gamergate is full of right-wing nutjobs" etc. same goes for anything. people/shows/companies/etc. People can align them with a political movement then push that agenda or ignore it due to bias towards the political movement. tl;dr american politics is dumb

[QUOTE=Wii60;46135624]for those saying that GG is a right-wing movement [url]https://imgur.com/Qvo6Ost[/url][/QUOTE] While I agree with the overall point that political leaning isn't really relevant, I'd urge everyone to take statements from Breitbart and other well-known far-right organizations with a huge mountain of salt. There is no need to immediately denounce them for simply being conservative but I don't like the idea of groups who couldn't give a shit about video games two months ago using GamerGate as their foothold.

[IMG]http://puu.sh/bWVCo/42a8547750.png[/IMG] [IMG]http://puu.sh/bWVU9/f1d5212655.png[/IMG] My sides are in orbit

[QUOTE=Thlis;46134459]CNN ireport is now misogynist [url]http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-1175414[/url][/QUOTE] That's a user-submitted article that has apparently not yet been reviewed, i.e. the same as posting that on Tumblr.

SJW Linux Devs are punishing the Linux Community due to intel pulling ads [URL]http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/32778.html[/URL] [URL]https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/2i3y4x/kernel_developer_matthew_garrett_will_no_longer/[/URL] you can see how he's handling criticism here: [url]https://twitter.com/mjg59/status/517716252865724416[/url]

[QUOTE=Raidyr;46135295]I don't mind the ratings, they are pixels. It's the lack of anything to bounce my ideas off of. If you think my post is dumb, tell me why. It comes across as disingenuous to have an extensive movement largely dedicated to free and honest discourse and then just rate everything you disagree with dumb.[/QUOTE] The dumb ratings in this thread seem to come up mostly when they are mentioned, someone doesn't want to ready at least some of the thread, or if someone says something and then completely ignores the counterargument in the following posts. I agree that having the replies is important, but I think the ratings just replace one-sentence ones with little argumentative value.

listening to people bitch over intel is great especially here [URL="https://twitter.com/IntelGaming/status/517493919353815040"] https://twitter.com/IntelGaming/status/517493919353815040[/URL]

[QUOTE=Wii60;46135760][B]SJW's are punishing the Linux Community due to intel pulling ads[/B] [url]http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/32778.html[/url] [URL]https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/2i3y4x/kernel_developer_matthew_garrett_will_no_longer/[/URL][/QUOTE] [emphasis mine] Sensationalist much? It seems more like a (massively) uniformed rushed decision to me. This just keeps spreading, doesn't it? First Baldwin, then some conservative politicians, then Assange (and WikiLeaks officially), then Dawkins, and now a prominent Linux maintainer, not to mention all the groups involved from the beginning :suicide: [editline]edit[/editline] [QUOTE=Wii60;46135760][...] you can see how he's handling criticism here: [url]https://twitter.com/mjg59/status/517716252865724416[/url][/QUOTE] Nevermind :v: I'm using openSUSE so at least this shouldn't affect me too much.

[QUOTE=Wii60;46135760]SJW Linux Devs are punishing the Linux Community due to intel pulling ads [URL]http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/32778.html[/URL] [URL]https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/2i3y4x/kernel_developer_matthew_garrett_will_no_longer/[/URL] you can see how he's handling criticism here: [url]https://twitter.com/mjg59/status/517716252865724416[/url][/QUOTE] "For avoidance of doubt, any comments arguing this point will be replaced with the phrase "Fart fart fart"." Real fucking mature.

[QUOTE=Banned?;46135843]"For avoidance of doubt, any comments arguing this point will be replaced with the phrase "Fart fart fart"." Real fucking mature.[/QUOTE] What is it with SJW and fart and poopy babies insults?

[QUOTE=Wii60;46135760]SJW Linux Devs are punishing the Linux Community due to intel pulling ads [URL]http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/32778.html[/URL] [URL]https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/2i3y4x/kernel_developer_matthew_garrett_will_no_longer/[/URL] you can see how he's handling criticism here: [url]https://twitter.com/mjg59/status/517716252865724416[/url][/QUOTE] ugh, the comments on the blog are headache-inducing.