Corruption in gaming journalism discussion and update thread. - General

God damn these commenters on The Verge are dense. I bring up the fact that GG has nothing to do with gender politics, I'm met with "Then how come most of the conversation here is about that?". I don't know, perhaps because people like you keep claiming that it is relevant you dipshit. I swear, it's like talking to a brick wall, seriously. This shit is beyond repair.

[QUOTE=Jamsponge;46194557]GG has done a lot of shit, good and bad[/QUOTE] I'd argue that #GG has done almost exclusively good and that the only people doing bad shit are people using the movement to say/do stupid shit that they would otherwise. It's just that for whatever reason they feel legitimized by it. It's really easy for someone who is legitimately misogynistic to post anonymously on Twitter using #gamergate but these individuals aren't really part of the movement that calls for journalistic integrity.

[QUOTE=_Axel;46194776]God damn these commenters on The Verge are dense. I bring up the fact that GG has nothing to do with gender politics, I'm met with "Then how come most of the conversation here is about that?". I don't know, perhaps because people like you keep claiming that it is relevant you dipshit. I swear, it's like talking to a brick wall, seriously. This shit is beyond repair.[/QUOTE] Then say exactly this: "perhaps because people keep claiming that it is relevant" That is probably the single most effective counter.

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;46194756]Dont feel bad, the ban was 100% warranted, it was his 3rd fucking strike in like a month on the exact same thing he was warned about multiple times.[/QUOTE] Offtopic and borderline back seat modding, but banning someone for participating in a discussion, purely for the reason they were participating in a discussion, sets a bad precedent. You approve because it was someone you disagree with. What happens when it's someone you like?

[QUOTE=Raidyr;46194842]Offtopic and borderline back seat modding, but banning someone for participating in a discussion, purely for the reason they were participating in a discussion, sets a bad precedent. You approve because it was someone you disagree with. What happens when it's someone you like?[/QUOTE]The problem was he wasn't actually participating in the discussion. Just throwing out "lol you're all just babies" over and over isn't a discussion.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;46194842]Offtopic and borderline back seat modding, but banning someone for participating in a discussion, purely for the reason they were participating in a discussion, sets a bad precedent. You approve because it was someone you disagree with. What happens when it's someone you like?[/QUOTE] He was told explicitly by Craptasket to stop posting in threads about GG or feminism/etc. He did exactly that and got permabanned. It is of no importance if he was banned for a shitpost or a dissenting opinion.

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;46194838]Then say exactly this: "perhaps because people keep claiming that it is relevant" That is probably the single most effective counter.[/QUOTE] That's what I said: [QUOTE]It’s the main point of discussion because misinformed people keep bringing that up! Besides, how do you expect people to respond to accusations of misogyny? Do you want us to say "Yep, it’s all about women, we’re all misogynists" when that is not the case? Of course people are going to defend themselves from bullshit accusations! #GG people are saying it isn’t a gender issue because it isn’t. Our goals have nothing to do with it and I don’t know why you’re trying to convince others otherwise.[/QUOTE] Not sure if that really serves a purpose, though. They seem like a stubborn lot.

Looking at the replies on twitter to say, TotalBiscuit's thunderclap about being anti misogony, anti harrassment and pro gamergate, people are really deluded. It's all "no stop it gamergate is misogony and harrassment you cant be all of those!" People are so stupid.

[QUOTE=xxncxx;46194865]He was told explicitly by Craptasket to stop posting in threads about GG or feminism/etc. He did exactly that and got permabanned. It is of no importance if he was banned for a shitpost or a dissenting opinion.[/QUOTE] This proves exactly my point, that it didn't matter whether it was genuine shitposting (already a fairly general ban reason) or simply a dissenting opinion, he was forbidden from participating at all in a discussion. Ironically, his third strike came in a GamerGate thread, where we are now desperately trying to convicne people that this has nothing to do with gender politics. [QUOTE=_Axel;46194868]That's what I said: Not sure if that really serves a purpose, though. They seem like a stubborn lot.[/QUOTE] It's really not worth it. People invested enough in Verge to regularly post in the comments section are going to disregard whatever argument you put forward because it opposes the Verge position. It would be like arguing the successes of the Obama administration in the comments of Fox News.

Erik Kain has released another GG-related article over at Forbes: [url=http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2014/10/09/gamergate-is-not-a-hate-group-its-a-consumer-movement/]#GamerGate Is Not A Hate Group, It's A Consumer Movement[/url] And there's also this article released elsewhere today: [url=http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2014/10/09/the_gender_games_sex_lies_and_videogames_124244.html#.VDbWmQ7vAYQ.twitter]The Gender Games: Sex, Lies, and Videogames[/url] Now I've never heard of Real Clear Politics before this article, and in my experience that usually bodes as either really good or really bad with very little in-between. Anyone have history with this site in the past?

[QUOTE=Raidyr;46194941]This proves exactly my point, that it didn't matter whether it was genuine shitposting (already a fairly general ban reason) or simply a dissenting opinion, he was forbidden from participating at all in a discussion. Ironically, his third strike came in a GamerGate thread, where we are now desperately trying to convicne people that this has nothing to do with gender politics. It's really not worth it. People invested enough in Verge to regularly post in the comments section are going to disregard whatever argument you put forward because it opposes the Verge position. It would be like arguing the successes of the Obama administration in the comments of Fox News.[/QUOTE] It didn't matter if it was shitposting because the first two strikes were FROM shitposting. I don't know why you're trying to twist him into him being the victim. And no one is "desperately" trying to convince people that this has nothing to do with gender politics because frankly the only people who make it seem that way are the people who are misunderstanding what GG is about.

[QUOTE=xxncxx;46194993]I don't know why you're trying to twist him into him being the victim[/QUOTE] Because he is quite obviously a victim of censorship. [QUOTE=xxncxx;46194993]And no one is "desperately" trying to convince people that this has nothing to do with gender politics because frankly the only people who make it seem that way are the people who are misunderstanding what GG is about.[/QUOTE] The TB thunderclap says otherwise.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;46194842]Offtopic and borderline back seat modding, but banning someone for participating in a discussion, purely for the reason they were participating in a discussion, sets a bad precedent. You approve because it was someone you disagree with. What happens when it's someone you like?[/QUOTE] He was just warned to cool off and stop shitposting in threads about femnism and all that jazz, 3 times, like he was very clearly warned to just take a break from that shit. It was more shitposting and less of the fact he was just taking part in discussion, I approve of it because he was constantly a shitposter with that stuff and it was a long time coming. Its not like the mods didnt know he was constantly breaking his warnings and probably would have let Max continue discussing if he wasnt shitposting so hard consistently, thats the issue, it was so long and consistent. I bet you anything if he just stopped for a bit and came back and didnt shitpost so much in those types of threads that no one would have banned him or stopped him. If I was doing the same type of shit and got warned/banned id just stop, hell im surprised when #GG started and I was posting a lot I wasnt banned.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;46195027]Because he is quite obviously a victim of censorship. The TB thunderclap says otherwise.[/QUOTE] Watching this thread since it's conception, I saw that Max was literally just shitposting and that's the reason he got banned, not because he was anti-GG. And he was warned several times for posting in this exact thread and in others about the same issue, so he had several opportunities and wasted them. There have been other people on the thread who weren't on GGs side, and I didn't see any of them banned. There's really no apparent censorship.

[QUOTE=Pennywise;46194947]Erik Kain has released another GG-related article over at Forbes: [url=http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2014/10/09/gamergate-is-not-a-hate-group-its-a-consumer-movement/]#GamerGate Is Not A Hate Group, It's A Consumer Movement[/url] And there's also this article released elsewhere today: [url=http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2014/10/09/the_gender_games_sex_lies_and_videogames_124244.html#.VDbWmQ7vAYQ.twitter]The Gender Games: Sex, Lies, and Videogames[/url] Now I've never heard of Real Clear Politics before this article, and in my experience that usually bodes as either really good or really bad with very little in-between. Anyone have history with this site in the past?[/QUOTE] rcp is a really good politics site which I visit for politics shit, iirc they were literally spot on in the 2012 elections anything else it does is outside my knowledge and probably isn't up to the same standards (i skimmed the article and it seems decent enough too so maybe it is???)

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;46195066] Its not like the mods didnt know he was constantly breaking his warnings and probably would have let Max continue discussing if he wasnt shitposting so hard consistently, thats the issue, it was so long and consistent[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=SelfishDragon;46195086]Watching this thread since it's conception, I saw that Max was literally just shitposting and that's the reason he got banned, not because he was anti-GG. [/QUOTE] If he had been third strike banned for shitposting I wouldn't have said anything. It's the fact that he was banned for posting in threads that a moderator deemed verboten. There is a massive gulf between shitposting even in the most general sense and simply making a post anywhere in a thread the moderator deems to be a feminist thread. Imagine not being able to post in a video game related thread? How long would you last on FP before slipping up? Or just not posting at all because that's what you like to talk about. [QUOTE=SelfishDragon;46195086]There's really no apparent censorship.[/QUOTE] "Don't speak in these areas or you will be punished by the authority" is about as explicit as you can get in terms of censorship. It's scary that I even have to point this out in the gamergate thread.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;46195120]If he had been third strike banned for shitposting I wouldn't have said anything. It's the fact that he was banned for posting in threads that a moderator deemed verboten. "Don't speak in these areas or you will be punished by the authority" is about as explicit as you can get in terms of censorship. It's scary that I even have to point this out in the gamergate thread.[/QUOTE] Max was legitimately just trolling Maybe if he'd actually been constructively adding to the conversation there'd be more outcry but he wasn't All he'd do is pick a post to shit all over, ignore nearly all rebuttal and attempts at discussion, or respond with more insults, and then repeat the process a few pages later

[QUOTE=Raidyr;46195120]If he had been third strike banned for shitposting I wouldn't have said anything. It's the fact that he was banned for posting in threads that a moderator deemed verboten. There is a massive gulf between shitposting even in the most general sense and simply making a post anywhere in a thread the moderator deems to be a feminist thread. Imagine not being able to post in a video game related thread? How long would you last on FP before slipping up? Or just not posting at all because that's what you like to talk about. "Don't speak in these areas or you will be punished by the authority" is about as explicit as you can get in terms of censorship. It's scary that I even have to point this out in the gamergate thread.[/QUOTE] What if I couldnt talk about video games anymore on facepunch? Id just talk about videogames somewhere else and probably slowly stop coming here as much. Also its a very loose usage of censorship, only thing being censored was Maxs shitposting and he wasnt even censored, he was free to post whatever the fuck he wanted until he was banned and considering a ban censorship is being silly. The posts are all still there. I highly doubt he would have gotten banned if he was discussion that shit normally instead of being a cock, even after the 3rd warning. His bans were essentially just telling him to stop shitposting so hard, and probably wouldnt have enforced anything if he just took a breather from his shit.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;46195120] "Don't speak in these areas or you will be punished by the authority" is about as explicit as you can get in terms of censorship. It's scary that I even have to point this out in the gamergate thread.[/QUOTE] I think it's more like "Don't speak in these areas or you will be punished by the authority [B]because all you've been doing is slinging shit at others and frankly I'm sick of you not learning not to do that.[/B]" It's not like he was forbidden from posting in GG threads for no reason.

[QUOTE=Sitkero;46195176]Max was legitimately just trolling Maybe if he'd actually been constructively adding to the conversation there'd be more outcry but he wasn't All he'd do is pick a post to shit all over, ignore nearly all rebuttal and attempts at discussion, or respond with more insults, and then repeat the process a few pages later[/QUOTE] Ultimately it's off topic and what exactly constitutes shitposting and trolling is going to differ from person to person so I'm going to wrap up my point of view with this post. I wouldn't mind if Max (or anyone; I'm not up to bat for him in particular) was permabanned for shitposting, trolling, whatever reason the moderator came up with. I'm just very wary when the reason is "Disregarded my order to not speak in these designated zones ever again".

[QUOTE=Pennywise;46194947]Erik Kain has released another GG-related article over at Forbes: [url=http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2014/10/09/gamergate-is-not-a-hate-group-its-a-consumer-movement/]#GamerGate Is Not A Hate Group, It's A Consumer Movement[/url] And there's also this article released elsewhere today: [url=http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2014/10/09/the_gender_games_sex_lies_and_videogames_124244.html#.VDbWmQ7vAYQ.twitter]The Gender Games: Sex, Lies, and Videogames[/url] Now I've never heard of Real Clear Politics before this article, and in my experience that usually bodes as either really good or really bad with very little in-between. Anyone have history with this site in the past?[/QUOTE] RCP seem like a relatively interesting source for something here. They are apparently nothing more than an aggregation site for political data, they shouldn't have any clear or straightforward bias. They seem to be sourced by a lot of news agencies too (their about page lists a few of them, but I've seen them pop up in the past). Though they have been criticised for a bias to the right, so opinion pieces from there in particular might be something to watch out for, don't just support them because their headlines sound good, ensure the material is actually good. That stands for every group, not just the ones I keep commenting on when people bring them up. Straight away that article has some red flags such as this gem; [quote]To liberals and progressives, it’s part of a reactionary white male backlash against the rise of diversity—in this case, “sexist thugs” out to silence and destroy women who seek equality in the gaming subculture.[/quote] It's not "liberals and progressives" as a whole, in fact I'd say a lot of people supporting GG would identify as liberal/ progressive. It's a small subset of this group that have lost their way or totally misunderstand what they are attacking. But later sections seem to do away with weird biases and actually get back on track, it seems like a decent summation outside of that one line really. SO yeah, be careful with just supporting shit that sounds nice.

Ok I sorta lied. I'm done talking about Max's ban but I really need to tackle this one. [QUOTE=HoodedSniper;46195224] Also its a very loose usage of censorship, only thing being censored was Maxs shitposting and he wasnt even censored, he was free to post whatever the fuck he wanted until he was banned and considering a ban censorship is being silly. The posts are all still there.[/QUOTE] How is it at all a very loose usage of censorship? This is the definition of the word censorship from Wikipedia [QUOTE] Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication or other information which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, politically incorrect or inconvenient as determined by governments, media outlets, authorities or other such entities.[/QUOTE] A moderator on a forum telling you not to post in a conversation is literal censorship. It doesn't matter that his previous posts still exist, or that he can post elsewhere. These are outside factors. I don't think bans are censorship. I don't think banning for shitposting or trolling or racism or being a creep is censorship. I think banning someone for posting in a thread that you told them not to post in them is the textbook definition of censorship.

If there were censorship, I would have been banned for talking against Milo and GameJournosPro's relevancy Max is just a shitposter

[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;46195302]If there were censorship, I would have been banned for talking against Milo and GameJournosPro's relevancy[/QUOTE] I'm not saying there is censorship going on related to gamergate. I don't even think craptasket was thinking about censoring anything when he gave Max that ultimatum. From what I can tell he doesn't give two shits about either gender politics or video games. I'm saying that one specific instance of a single user and a single post represent a small splinter of censorship that I don't think anyone should celebrate. If you don't like Max that's cool, I'm just asking people to consider the ramifications of how he was banned outside of any alleged shitposting or trolling.

this discussion about max's ban is literally nothing.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;46195316]I'm just asking people to consider the ramifications of how he was banned outside of any alleged shitposting or trolling.[/QUOTE] It's hard not to since that's all he would do. Nothing he said contributed anything to the conversation. He would just post (incorrect) zingers about why GG are worse than ISIS and such. [editline]9th October 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=TheJoey;46195325]this discussion about max's ban is literally nothing.[/QUOTE] That too, I just wanted to weigh in that there isn't censorship here

Having a dissenting opinion on FP does not get you banned. Having a dissenting opinion, failing to lead with an argument or evidence to support it, and attempting to provoke users into flaming you, however, does. Max can't argue without resorting to bullshit. He can't help himself. If anything the ban was a mercy because he lacked the self control to not make a fool of himself time and time again. I promise that if he wasn't an asshole he would still be here. Even his own tumblr is riddled with bitter ad hominem attacks against anyone who disagrees with him while never providing a solid argument. He wasn't capable of mature discussion, was told to not shit up mature discussion, and when he couldn't control his emotions he was banned. [editline]9th October 2014[/editline] It's censorship in the same way it would be censorship to arrest somebody who ran up on stage during a presidential debate and started screaming insults.

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;46195353] It's censorship in the same way it would be censorship to arrest somebody who ran up on stage during a presidential debate and started screaming insults.[/QUOTE] I'd argue that it's closer to squaring off a piece of land where you aren't allowed to talk about something while nearly everyone else is. Except the squares pop up dynamically and can be really large or really small. Your example sounds more like being banned for shitposting, which I'm okay with.

[QUOTE=TheJoey;46195325]this discussion about max's ban is literally nothing.[/QUOTE] Actually I think its extremely relevant to GamerGate considering its about censorship and the difference between an opinion and a shit post. Just as long as we don't resort to pointlessly insulting or harassing max.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;46195316]I'm not saying there is censorship going on related to gamergate. I don't even think craptasket was thinking about censoring anything when he gave Max that ultimatum. From what I can tell he doesn't give two shits about either gender politics or video games. I'm saying that one specific instance of a single user and a single post represent a small splinter of censorship that I don't think anyone should celebrate. If you don't like Max that's cool, I'm just asking people to consider the ramifications of how he was banned outside of any alleged shitposting or trolling.[/QUOTE] But he was banned for shitposting, you are taking the warnings way too literally, as with Maxs entire ban. If he just could shut up for a bit and come back and ACTUALLY discuss instead of the shit he constantly pulled time and time again that wasnt just this instance, he wouldnt have gotten banned. He wasnt censored because the posts are all still there AND he had the freedom to post whatever he wanted until his ban. Nothing he ever wrote was censored.