Corruption in gaming journalism discussion and update thread. - General

[QUOTE=Stents*;46195395]Actually I think its extremely relevant to GamerGate considering its about censorship and the difference between an opinion and a shit post.[/QUOTE] The difference between valid opinion and shitpost is a whole nother can of worms, one that can't really be tackled effectively because it's almost entirely subjective and ultimately up to the decision of the mods. Even if we all decided what was shitposting or not, FP isn't a democracy. My point is more that because someone shitposted twice, I don't necessarily think its fair to tell them they shouldn't post in any threads of a given topic or risk getting permabanned.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;46195390]I'd argue that it's closer to squaring off a piece of land where you aren't allowed to talk about something while nearly everyone else is. Except the squares pop up dynamically and can be really large or really small. Your example sounds more like being banned for shitposting, which I'm okay with.[/QUOTE] Even the "don't talk about feminism" warning was a mercy. Max was a shit poster when it came to these topics. That was his chance to take a step back and cool off while continuing to have posting privileges. It had been noted that he wasn't capable of these discussions. Any other user wouldn't have gotten such a generous warning, they would have been gone ages ago. He willingly forfeit those priveleges because the urge to argue was too strong for him.

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;46195421]If he just could shut up for a bit and come back and ACTUALLY discuss instead of the shit he constantly pulled time and time again that wasnt just this instance, he wouldnt have gotten banned.[/QUOTE] There is no way of actually knowing this though. [QUOTE=HoodedSniper;46195421]He wasnt censored because the posts are all still there AND he had the freedom to post whatever he wanted until his ban. Nothing he ever wrote was censored.[/QUOTE] I already explained why neither of these points are at all relevant to censorship. If I wrote a pamphlet that criticized the government and they simply told me to stop making them or I would be punished somehow, that is censorship. Whether they let my previous copies exist is now completely irrelevant because I've already been censored. I can talk about how nice the weather is to my co-workers, but I am no longer allowed to criticize my government. Still censorship.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;46195248]Ultimately it's off topic and what exactly constitutes shitposting and trolling is going to differ from person to person so I'm going to wrap up my point of view with this post. I wouldn't mind if Max (or anyone; I'm not up to bat for him in particular) was permabanned for shitposting, trolling, whatever reason the moderator came up with. I'm just very wary when the reason is "Disregarded my order to not speak in these designated zones ever again".[/QUOTE] Max was usually an ok poster until a thread about feminism (or more specifically GamerGate) came up, at which point he turned into a frothing-at-the-mouth idiot. He didn't just disagree with people, nor was he just rude: he went full retard. Max was a chronic shitposter in these threads and didn't even presume to treat people's opinions with a single shred of dignity. Warning him to stay away from fem/GG threads for a while wasn't the mod team silencing him, they were doing him a favour. I doubt most of us would have been given a similar pass, but then I kind of understand why: Max exhibited a clear pattern of behaviour and if he could avoid the cause of it, he really wasn't too bad. When he showed he had no intention of being an adult about it... well, all I can say is that was a long time coming. At least, that is my best guess as to how that went down from my own admin/mod experience. I obviously can't speak for the FP mod team, but I have made similar decisions before and generally people come out of it better than they were before. Max didn't.

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;46195452]Any other user wouldn't have gotten such a generous warning, they would have been gone ages ago. [/QUOTE] I agree with this actually. [QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;46195452]He willingly forfeit those priveleges because the urge to argue was too strong for him.[/QUOTE] I think the urge to argue applies to a whole lot of people on FP.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;46195431]The difference between valid opinion and shitpost is a whole nother can of worms, one that can't really be tackled effectively because it's almost entirely subjective and ultimately up to the decision of the mods. Even if we all decided what was shitposting or not, FP isn't a democracy. My point is more that because someone shitposted twice, I don't necessarily think its fair to tell them they shouldn't post in any threads of a given topic or risk getting permabanned.[/QUOTE] If you shitpost about police in threads about them, and get banned for it twice, don't you think it's fair to say, "don't shitpost about police or face a perma"? [editline].[/editline] And then not even a day after your 7 day ban, proceed to do exactly that and get permad.

[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;46195475]If you shitpost about police in threads about them, and get banned for it twice, don't you think it's fair to say, "don't shitpost about police or face a perma"? [editline].[/editline] And then not even a day after your 7 day ban, proceed to do exactly that and get permad.[/QUOTE] I'd go farther and say it's fair to say "don't shitpost in general". My point is more "Don't post in those threads at all".

[url]http://journosbay.bitballoon.com[/url] It's a site with all the latest articles from RPS, Kotaku and Polygon in .png form.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;46195473]I agree with this actually. I think the urge to argue applies to a whole lot of people on FP.[/QUOTE] You're right. I'm even guilty of never wanting to back down from a fight. I'm not too different from Max in that regard. But I think it comes down to how you do it. I don't wish to imply that I exemplify these traits, but a lot of users on here at least try to be fair and reasonable. A lot of users try to never insult or result to dirty tricks. A lot of users try to listen to the other side. And a lot of users resort to epic zingers and passive aggressive jabs. A lot of users can't argue without demeaning the other side. Fighting for something you believe in is something I respect. Max believed in something, and tried to stand up for it. But I believe he did it with a lack of respect, a lack of dignity. He did it in a manner that has no place in civil discussion. And that, I cannot respect.

So T.C. Sottek of The Verge 'Stop supporting GamerGate' infamy stopped by the #burgersandfries IRC for a chat. The result was a (probably to his surprise) civilized and productive conversation that shed a lot of light on the fixations and prejudices of anti-GG reasoning. Here are the logs edited for brevity and legibility: [url]http://pastebin.com/autGqiM5[/url] Here are the raw logs for transparency: [url]http://pastebin.com/pdAEkigg[/url]

[QUOTE=TheJoey;46195500][url]http://journosbay.bitballoon.com[/url] It's a site with all the latest articles from RPS, Kotaku and Polygon in .png form.[/QUOTE] Huh, I ctrl+f'ed (Gamergate; sexist) each of them and saw that they each had no results.

[QUOTE=Lord of Boxes;46195578]Huh, I ctrl+f'ed (Gamergate; sexist) each of them and saw that they each had no results, is it safe to go back?[/QUOTE] to what? kotaku? rps? polygon? uhh no. don't give them views.

[QUOTE=TheJoey;46195584]to what? kotaku? rps? polygon? uhh no. don't give them views.[/QUOTE] gottcha [editline]9th October 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=TheJoey;46195546]So T.C. Sottek of The Verge 'Stop supporting GamerGate' infamy stopped by the #burgersandfries IRC for a chat. The result was a (probably to his surprise) civilized and productive conversation that shed a lot of light on the fixations and prejudices of anti-GG reasoning. Here are the logs edited for brevity and legibility: [url]http://pastebin.com/autGqiM5[/url] Here are the raw logs for transparency: [url]http://pastebin.com/pdAEkigg[/url][/QUOTE] WOOHOO! One down! One for us! Now to get the rest of them

[QUOTE=Raidyr;46195431]The difference between valid opinion and shitpost is a whole nother can of worms, one that can't really be tackled effectively because it's almost entirely subjective and ultimately up to the decision of the mods. Even if we all decided what was shitposting or not, FP isn't a democracy. My point is more that because someone shitposted twice, I don't necessarily think its fair to tell them they shouldn't post in any threads of a given topic or risk getting permabanned.[/QUOTE] TBH Max should've been banned (maybe not perma'd, but definitely banned for quite a while) for different reasons. The fact that he was totally unwilling to reconsider his stance was disappointing, but not necessarily disruptive. However nothing good has ever come out of his attempts to publicly belittle and/or humilate people he dislikes, yet in spite of this he's been doing it more and more. First time I saw him in this thread he was calling everyone else liars. Because they supported GG. Apparently he decided there was enough evidence against them to immediately start throwing blanket accusations at [I]the entire thread[/I]. I don't know if he was doing something similar when he got perma'd, but it doesn't matter. People have been telling him to stop antagonizing other posters since he was a mod. He didn't listen then, he didn't listen after he resigned, and he didn't listen when he started getting banned.

[QUOTE=Aredbomb;46195648]TBH Max should've been banned (maybe not perma'd, but definitely banned for quite a while) for different reasons. The fact that he was totally unwilling to reconsider his stance was disappointing, but not necessarily disruptive. However nothing good has ever come out of his attempts to publicly belittle and/or humilate people he dislikes, yet in spite of this he's been doing it more and more. First time I saw him in this thread he was calling everyone else liars. Because they supported GG. Apparently he decided there was enough evidence against them to immediately start throwing blanket accusations at [I]the entire thread[/I]. I don't know if he was doing something similar when he got perma'd, but it doesn't matter. People have been telling him to stop antagonizing other posters since he was a mod. He didn't listen then, he didn't listen after he resigned, and he didn't listen when he started getting banned.[/QUOTE] This pretty much nails it right on the head, Max wasnt just banned because someone told him not to talk and he did, its been just fucking everything leading up to the point of getting perma.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;46194941]This proves exactly my point, that it didn't matter whether it was genuine shitposting (already a fairly general ban reason) or simply a dissenting opinion, he was forbidden from participating at all in a discussion. Ironically, his third strike came in a GamerGate thread, where we are now desperately trying to convicne people that this has nothing to do with gender politics. It's really not worth it. People invested enough in Verge to regularly post in the comments section are going to disregard whatever argument you put forward because it opposes the Verge position. It would be like arguing the successes of the Obama administration in the comments of Fox News.[/QUOTE] if someone wants to participate in a discussion, they should do so with some effort. They should not be spending their time telling everyone who doesn't agree with them they're babies and children. When ANYONE argued with max, his default reaction was "You're full of shit and you're being a baby." regardless of the arguments presented to him. He didn't want to disucss anything. He wanted to preach. That's fine, but he's been on a long rope for a long time and he finally ran out of that rope. He was expressly told to stop with his shit posting, he didn't. It's not a matter of opinions here. "You're a child and your concerns are childish" is not an argument. It's an insult. And he repeated that ad nauseum.

OK, holy shit. Who the fuck was this Max? Was he just someone that got banned? Because if it was just that and you people still talk about him so fucking much then he must have been an amazingly memorable person. Is he famous? Was he a mod? Did he kill someone?

[QUOTE=adnzzzzZ;46195856]OK, holy shit. Who the fuck was this Max? Was he just someone that got banned? Because if it was just that and you people still talk about him so fucking much then he must have been an amazingly memorable person. Is he famous? Was he a mod? Did he kill someone?[/QUOTE] Yes, yes and probably no (I mean, I doubt he killed someone).

[QUOTE=adnzzzzZ;46195856]OK, holy shit. Who the fuck was this Max? Was he just someone that got banned? Because if it was just that and you people still talk about him so fucking much then he must have been an amazingly memorable person. Is he famous? Was he a mod? Did he kill someone?[/QUOTE] Former moderator.

[QUOTE=adnzzzzZ;46195856]OK, holy shit. Who the fuck was this Max? Was he just someone that got banned? Because if it was just that and you people still talk about him so fucking much then he must have been an amazingly memorable person. Is he famous? Was he a mod? Did he kill someone?[/QUOTE] 1. He once had some drama between him and Mecha, some guy who ran some goofy TF2 servers. It's a long story, but ultimately Mecha was the stupider one. Max did however do most of the research on the attacks against him by Mecha. I understand that it was against him and he had to defend himself, but you'd be curious why he wouldn't put that same amount of research towards Gamergate. 2. Pretty good modeler. Pretty good SFM maker. Pretty good animator in general. If you look up his youtube channel, he's got some stuff worth looking at. 3. Was hired by Facepunch n' such, his contributions mostly involved various animations mostly on Garry's Mod and Rust. 4. Was also a moderator at the time he was hired. He left Facepunch as a job and therefore was no longer a moderator. People criticized his moderating at this time, someone even made a website about him over it. His snarkiness wasn't all that new, but insulting us for supporting something he doesn't like was pretty recent, and ultimately got him banned.

[QUOTE=EmperorVagak;46196098]1. He once had some drama between him and Mecha, some guy who ran some goofy TF2 servers. It's a long story, but ultimately Mecha was the stupider one. Max did however do most of the research on the attacks against him by Mecha. I understand that it was against him and he had to defend himself, but you'd be curious why he wouldn't put that same amount of research towards Gamergate. 2. Pretty good modeler. Pretty good SFM maker. Pretty good animator in general. If you look up his youtube channel, he's got some stuff worth looking at. 3. Was hired by Facepunch n' such, his contributions mostly involved various animations mostly on Garry's Mod and Rust. [B]4. Was also a moderator at the time he was hired. He left Facepunch as a job and therefore was no longer a moderator. People criticized his moderating at this time, someone even made a website about him over it.[/B] His snarkiness wasn't all that new, but insulting us for supporting something he doesn't like was pretty recent, and ultimately got him banned.[/QUOTE] show us the site?

[QUOTE=adnzzzzZ;46195856]OK, holy shit. Who the fuck was this Max? Was he just someone that got banned? Because if it was just that and you people still talk about him so fucking much then he must have been an amazingly memorable person. Is he famous? Was he a mod? Did he kill someone?[/QUOTE] Former moderator and shitposting stravaganza. He couldn't be arsed to argue with actual arguments or even consider reading people's points before flinging shit at 'em. I still don't know what warrants two or more pages dedicated to him tho. [editline]9th October 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=TheJoey;46195546]So T.C. Sottek of The Verge 'Stop supporting GamerGate' infamy stopped by the #burgersandfries IRC for a chat. The result was a (probably to his surprise) civilized and productive conversation that shed a lot of light on the fixations and prejudices of anti-GG reasoning. Here are the logs edited for brevity and legibility: [url]http://pastebin.com/autGqiM5[/url] Here are the raw logs for transparency: [url]http://pastebin.com/pdAEkigg[/url][/QUOTE] Chill, but not very productive, both sides repeated the same thing over and over again.

[QUOTE=Lord of Boxes;46196111]show us the site?[/QUOTE] I don't think the website exists anymore. It mostly made a bunch of french stereotype jokes (baguettes baguettes hon hon hon) seeing as Max was french, but it otherwise showed screenshots of Max and people he banned and brought up some other posts about him doing the same thing. The youtube videos about his moderating are still existent if you take a look around though, I imagine. [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mzyhJeL694"]oh wait, I found one.[/URL] [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRMff7yElvc"]And another one.[/URL]

SHUUUUUT UUUUUP about Max already! I thought we've unofficially established this in the past.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;46195473]I agree with this actually. I think the urge to argue applies to a whole lot of people on FP.[/QUOTE] Guilty. [editline]9th October 2014[/editline] I need like a dog collar for particular things, like when I bold shit.

Found another infographic running around on Twitter. [t]http://i.imgur.com/1r0swfd.jpg[/t] It's a counterargument to one of Anita's arguments.

The only complaint I have about Anita's videos is she makes no mention of the fact that the games she reviewed were old and are in a different "era" of sorts.

Surely if gamers are so sexist, shouldn't game franchises like Metroid, Portal and Beyond Good & Evil be universally hated by them?

[QUOTE=Raidyr;46195499]I'd go farther and say it's fair to say "don't shitpost in general". My point is more "Don't post in those threads at all".[/QUOTE] So you would have been OK if they had just permad him instead of giving him the chance to ignore the threads? That seems kind of... odd.

[QUOTE=nomad1;46197286]The only complaint I have about Anita's videos is she makes no mention of the fact that the games she reviewed were old and are in a different "era" of sorts.[/QUOTE] Anita's videos are not videos, they are onesided diatribes that do not allow for the possibility of discussion or exposition wherein half-assed and often factually incorrect [B]suppositions[/B] are paraded as facts without any actual research. Folks were saying something earlier about blind one sided argumentation being grounds for permanent shut the fuck up? She's also had zero qualms about pandering to the least common denominator and she hasn't apologized once to the people she was completely fuck off wrong about. She's as much a catalyst for sjw turning into a mccarthy-istic joke as anyone. She's also hasn't given any of the money back she got for completely misrepresenting herself, and for someone so militantly egalitarian, she hasn't given back the money people were [I]forced[/I] to give her to keep their jobs, something she was fully aware of. She's done far more harm to feminism in gaming than good, and there's nothing subjective about that. She's also also an urepentant liar and thief.